1 hour ago, nauseus said:

He will appear to back Ireland but this will be essentially backing the EU against the UK.

This is exactly right.

I should add that this has very little to do with Biden personally, his comments about being Irish are just window dressing. This is about solidarity between the US, UK, and EU political establishments who have always been determined to either stop Brexit or force a version of it that essentially means remaining under EU control.

From Day One, I considered it a major mistake for Ireland's ambitious career politicians to allow the EU to use our country as a stick with which to hit the UK. The UK is, by far, our most important trading partner and, despite some past problems, our closest friend. Our relationship with our neighbours on the British Isles will long outlast the EU.

Almost uniquely in Europe, we share the same understanding that democracy means that rulers should be accountable to the people. We should have respected the democratic decision of our UK brothers but, instead, our young Taoiseach (Prime Minister), bouyed up by lavish praise from the English and EU establishments, kept kicking the British people while they were down, knowing this would guarantee him a gilded future at the EU trough.

What we should have done is made it clear that we support the British in their decision, and trust them to sort out Northern Ireland later. As long as people are treated fairly, there is no danger of the IRA reforming. That bogeyman keeps getting waved around but it is nonsense. There are a few lunatics among the indigenous population, just as there are among the loyalists, but they have no broad support within their communities.

The IRA only had the limited effectiveness they did because it was clear that the indigenous had been treated with real prejudice and, so, a sufficiently large number of them were willing to provide practical assistance during the war. The Good Friday agreement marked the end of that and no serious politician, no matter how secretly prejudiced they may be, is going to risk that again.
 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Ironic really, as it is the EU insisting on the hard border, not the UK.

Right. The EU claim to be acting out of solidarity with Ireland but, actually, it is because they cannot allow the UK to leave. From the start, they have believed that, if they simply refused to give an inch, in time UK public opinion would turn against it. They don't actually care about how Brexit should happen, about how the borders will work. What they want is for the British to grow tired, give up, and become easier to govern.

If the British insist on leaving, the EU will happily weather serious economic damage in order to scupper the UK economy and discourage others who would dare leave. This would be spectacularly bad for Ireland.

For the US establishment, now reasserting their control after a 4-year glitch, their main worry is that any fracture in the EU will surface the underlying economic weaknesses and spark the collapse of the Euro. On the whole, it suits the US to have the countries of Europe bound together as one relatively weak but predictable ally.

The US establishment have no fond illusions about having a "special relationship" with the UK. To understand the true nature of the US/UK relationship, read about the history and terms of the major war loans, and how tightly the US has turned the screw every time they have had an opportunity to do so.

Brexit and Trump's election, both repudiations of the establishment that happened in quick succession, shook the confidence of the various elites. They had never failed to control democracy before. Now they are back in power, in no mood to compromise, and determined to entrench their control for the rest of this century. Many of the freedoms we had before 2020 are never coming back.

 

Edited November 11, 20205 yr by Poet

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Go and research how much of the world's trade is done on WTO terms.

The fact that much of the world's trade is conducted on WTO terms doesn't answer my question: If WTO terms are so favourable, why do governments - including our own - spend so much time and energy trying to negotiate FTAs?

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The sado masochism that you speak of pretty much sums up the EU's approach to doing a deal with the UK. 

The charge can be levelled at both sides. However, imo the biggest masochist - in terms of pain suffered - will be the UK government.

48 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Not yet he hasn't.

Ah, you're a Donald remainer.

15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Do as you are told Johnson, and get used to doing as you are told.

 

Just like Merkel, her eventual successor, Macron, etc etc etc.

 

The voice and words change, but not the master's nationality.

 

If you think otherwise, your deluding yourself, again.

43 minutes ago, Poet said:

This is exactly right.

I should add that this has very little to do with Biden personally, his comments about being Irish are just window dressing. This is about solidarity between the US, UK, and EU political establishments who have always been determined to either stop Brexit or force a version of it that essentially means remaining under EU control.

From Day One, I considered it a major mistake for Ireland's ambitious career politicians to allow the EU to use our country as a stick with which to hit the UK. The UK is, by far, our most important trading partner and, despite some past problems, our closest friend. Our relationship with our neighbours on the British Isles will long outlast the EU.

Almost uniquely in Europe, we share the same understanding that democracy means that rulers should be accountable to the people. We should have respected the democratic decision of our UK brothers but, instead, our young Taoiseach (Prime Minister), bouyed up by lavish praise from the English and EU establishments, kept kicking the British people while they were down, knowing this would guarantee him a gilded future at the EU trough.

What we should have done is made it clear that we support the British in their decision, and trust them to sort out Northern Ireland later. As long as people are treated fairly, there is no danger of the IRA reforming. That bogeyman keeps getting waved around but it is nonsense. There are a few lunatics among the indigenous population, just as there are among the loyalists, but they have no broad support within their communities.

The IRA only had the limited effectiveness they did because it was clear that the indigenous had been treated with real prejudice and, so, a sufficiently large number of them were willing to provide practical assistance during the war. The Good Friday agreement marked the end of that and no serious politician, no matter how secretly prejudiced they may be, is going to risk that again.
 

Right. The EU claim to be acting out of solidarity with Ireland but, actually, it is because they cannot allow the UK to leave. From the start, they have believed that, if they simply refused to give an inch, in time UK public opinion would turn against it. They don't actually care about how Brexit should happen, about how the borders will work. What they want is for the British to grow tired, give up, and become easier to govern.

If the British insist on leaving, the EU will happily weather serious economic damage in order to scupper the UK economy and discourage others who would dare leave. This would be spectacularly bad for Ireland.

For the US establishment, now reasserting their control after a 4-year glitch, their main worry is that any fracture in the EU will surface the underlying economic weaknesses and spark the collapse of the Euro. On the whole, it suits the US to have the countries of Europe bound together as one relatively weak but predictable ally.

The US establishment have no fond illusions about having a "special relationship" with the UK. To understand the true nature of the US/UK relationship, read about the history and terms of the major war loans, and how tightly the US has turned the screw every time they have had an opportunity to do so.

Brexit and Trump's election, both repudiations of the establishment that happened in quick succession, shook the confidence of the various elites. They had never failed to control democracy before. Now they are back in power, in no mood to compromise, and determined to entrench their control for the rest of this century. Many of the freedoms we had before 2020 are never coming back.

 

 

Most intelligent post in 2020 so far. 

 

Thank you.

43 minutes ago, bannork said:

Ah, you're a Donald remainer.

Nah; just a stickler for protocol.

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Johnson signed an agreement saying there would be no internal border in Ireland. He claimed it was a great deal. A fantastic deal. His own oven ready deal.

Upon which he won an election. 

 

 

So confusing. I thought this bit was about Biden.

 

 

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Johnson signed an agreement saying there would be no internal border in Ireland. He claimed it was a great deal. A fantastic deal. His own oven ready deal.

Upon which he won an election. 

 

His election win was assured as soon as May was gone. People get tired.

Britain doesn't need a trade deal with the US as long as there is Kenya, the British Virgin Islands and Belize to trade with... ????

2 hours ago, Poet said:

This is exactly right.

I should add that this has very little to do with Biden personally, his comments about being Irish are just window dressing. This is about solidarity between the US, UK, and EU political establishments who have always been determined to either stop Brexit or force a version of it that essentially means remaining under EU control.

From Day One, I considered it a major mistake for Ireland's ambitious career politicians to allow the EU to use our country as a stick with which to hit the UK. The UK is, by far, our most important trading partner and, despite some past problems, our closest friend. Our relationship with our neighbours on the British Isles will long outlast the EU.

Almost uniquely in Europe, we share the same understanding that democracy means that rulers should be accountable to the people. We should have respected the democratic decision of our UK brothers but, instead, our young Taoiseach (Prime Minister), bouyed up by lavish praise from the English and EU establishments, kept kicking the British people while they were down, knowing this would guarantee him a gilded future at the EU trough.

What we should have done is made it clear that we support the British in their decision, and trust them to sort out Northern Ireland later. As long as people are treated fairly, there is no danger of the IRA reforming. That bogeyman keeps getting waved around but it is nonsense. There are a few lunatics among the indigenous population, just as there are among the loyalists, but they have no broad support within their communities.

The IRA only had the limited effectiveness they did because it was clear that the indigenous had been treated with real prejudice and, so, a sufficiently large number of them were willing to provide practical assistance during the war. The Good Friday agreement marked the end of that and no serious politician, no matter how secretly prejudiced they may be, is going to risk that again.
 

Right. The EU claim to be acting out of solidarity with Ireland but, actually, it is because they cannot allow the UK to leave. From the start, they have believed that, if they simply refused to give an inch, in time UK public opinion would turn against it. They don't actually care about how Brexit should happen, about how the borders will work. What they want is for the British to grow tired, give up, and become easier to govern.

If the British insist on leaving, the EU will happily weather serious economic damage in order to scupper the UK economy and discourage others who would dare leave. This would be spectacularly bad for Ireland.

For the US establishment, now reasserting their control after a 4-year glitch, their main worry is that any fracture in the EU will surface the underlying economic weaknesses and spark the collapse of the Euro. On the whole, it suits the US to have the countries of Europe bound together as one relatively weak but predictable ally.

The US establishment have no fond illusions about having a "special relationship" with the UK. To understand the true nature of the US/UK relationship, read about the history and terms of the major war loans, and how tightly the US has turned the screw every time they have had an opportunity to do so.

Brexit and Trump's election, both repudiations of the establishment that happened in quick succession, shook the confidence of the various elites. They had never failed to control democracy before. Now they are back in power, in no mood to compromise, and determined to entrench their control for the rest of this century. Many of the freedoms we had before 2020 are never coming back.

 

 

I used to try to write as well as this. You are right...I'm tired.........Bravo.

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Hes a politician. It matters not what he personally finds important but what he can convince the voting public what he thinks is important.

Just like Johnson and Brexit.

And with only a fraction of the American population being remotely interested in Ireland, as a politician I can't see him making too much of a fuss about the green isle. He might make some noises about it now, but once he gets stuck into the real problems in the US he'll go back to forgetting about Ireland, as he has done for 78 years. 

2 hours ago, Poet said:

This is exactly right.

I should add that this has very little to do with Biden personally, his comments about being Irish are just window dressing. This is about solidarity between the US, UK, and EU political establishments who have always been determined to either stop Brexit or force a version of it that essentially means remaining under EU control.

From Day One, I considered it a major mistake for Ireland's ambitious career politicians to allow the EU to use our country as a stick with which to hit the UK. The UK is, by far, our most important trading partner and, despite some past problems, our closest friend. Our relationship with our neighbours on the British Isles will long outlast the EU.

Almost uniquely in Europe, we share the same understanding that democracy means that rulers should be accountable to the people. We should have respected the democratic decision of our UK brothers but, instead, our young Taoiseach (Prime Minister), bouyed up by lavish praise from the English and EU establishments, kept kicking the British people while they were down, knowing this would guarantee him a gilded future at the EU trough.

What we should have done is made it clear that we support the British in their decision, and trust them to sort out Northern Ireland later. As long as people are treated fairly, there is no danger of the IRA reforming. That bogeyman keeps getting waved around but it is nonsense. There are a few lunatics among the indigenous population, just as there are among the loyalists, but they have no broad support within their communities.

The IRA only had the limited effectiveness they did because it was clear that the indigenous had been treated with real prejudice and, so, a sufficiently large number of them were willing to provide practical assistance during the war. The Good Friday agreement marked the end of that and no serious politician, no matter how secretly prejudiced they may be, is going to risk that again.
 

Right. The EU claim to be acting out of solidarity with Ireland but, actually, it is because they cannot allow the UK to leave. From the start, they have believed that, if they simply refused to give an inch, in time UK public opinion would turn against it. They don't actually care about how Brexit should happen, about how the borders will work. What they want is for the British to grow tired, give up, and become easier to govern.

If the British insist on leaving, the EU will happily weather serious economic damage in order to scupper the UK economy and discourage others who would dare leave. This would be spectacularly bad for Ireland.

For the US establishment, now reasserting their control after a 4-year glitch, their main worry is that any fracture in the EU will surface the underlying economic weaknesses and spark the collapse of the Euro. On the whole, it suits the US to have the countries of Europe bound together as one relatively weak but predictable ally.

The US establishment have no fond illusions about having a "special relationship" with the UK. To understand the true nature of the US/UK relationship, read about the history and terms of the major war loans, and how tightly the US has turned the screw every time they have had an opportunity to do so.

Brexit and Trump's election, both repudiations of the establishment that happened in quick succession, shook the confidence of the various elites. They had never failed to control democracy before. Now they are back in power, in no mood to compromise, and determined to entrench their control for the rest of this century. Many of the freedoms we had before 2020 are never coming back.

 

Beautifully put ????

13 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes and again the Brits are forced to bend. I mentioned it yesterday that they lost an ally in the US and now already it shows it effects. The Brits have even less power now then before in the negotiations.

 

I wonder how the Brexiteers are going to sell this. They kept telling me that the UK was holding the cards and had a strong position.

 

Looks more like quicksand to me.

Yeh if only we had the power of the Netherlands ....

3 hours ago, Poet said:

From Day One, I considered it a major mistake for Ireland's ambitious career politicians to allow the EU to use our country as a stick with which to hit the UK. The UK is, by far, our most important trading partner and, despite some past problems, our closest friend. Our relationship with our neighbours on the British Isles will long outlast the EU.

At last someone who sees it. All history and bantering aside we are the closest of allies . All the sabre rattlers just choose to focus on past unchangeable events. And that will only lead to more troubles . I just hope Biden or his team doesn’t embolden people like the IRA/UDF to start their sh##e. Brexit is happening except it . Just like Trump and his hardcore supporters.... Biden will be president whether you like it or not . 

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

And with only a fraction of the American population being remotely interested in Ireland, as a politician I can't see him making too much of a fuss about the green isle. He might make some noises about it now, but once he gets stuck into the real problems in the US he'll go back to forgetting about Ireland, as he has done for 78 years. 

Britain is far more important to Biden than Ireland and I mean no disrespect in that statement . Reagan and the rest were against taking the British side in the falklands.  It was Biden who convinced them to go public and support Britain . His words, not exact went Britain is our strongest and oldest ally we will always have their back and support them . Reagan had far stronger Irish roots than Biden and he loved Thatcher. (Not in a shagable way I might add!)

13 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You’ll take what you are given, and like it.

 

The terms will be good for the dominant party in the ‘negotiations’.

How's the Mandarin coming along then?

Don't worry! There's still Ukraine left! ????

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/vasyl-myroshnychenko-uk-and-ukraine-sign-historic-post-brexit-free-trade-deal.html

20 hours ago, Traubert said:

Is there any American politicians that don't cling to some sort of British/Irish ancestry?

 

Just be American.

Vice President Harris come to mind, and Ex-President O'bama is probably not Irish.

I'm thinking a lot of Hong Kong citizens wish Biden's ancestry had a connection to them.

6 hours ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Yeh if only we had the power of the Netherlands ....

The Netherlands has no power, unlike the Brits I have no illusions about that. I still believe countries are better of in a strong economic block. Now you see the result the Brits are shown their place by all the stronger blocks / countries.

 

 

6 hours ago, goldenbrwn1 said:

Britain is far more important to Biden than Ireland and I mean no disrespect in that statement . Reagan and the rest were against taking the British side in the falklands.  It was Biden who convinced them to go public and support Britain . His words, not exact went Britain is our strongest and oldest ally we will always have their back and support them . Reagan had far stronger Irish roots than Biden and he loved Thatcher. (Not in a shagable way I might add!)

Britain is not far more important to Ireland, else Biden would not have made this call stressing this. If the US has to choose between EU and the Brits who do you think the US chooses. The EU of course. Its all about economics. Biden has always been more pro EU. Anyone who can't see that BJ has been told to fall back in line or get punished like a lil schoolboy is blind.

 

He has been shown his place, now its time to see if he behaves or if punishment must follow. 

 

To compare this with the falklands is crazy as its now not some crazy south american country that has problems with the UK but one of the US its biggest trading partners (the EU). So who do you think it would support in this basically trade dispute. Where can the US get more from EU or Brits. Who did it already read the riot act.. did it read it to Bannier or to BJ.

 

So stop making things up and face the music, Biden is pro EU and the Brits have lost an ally (against the EU of course not against other things)

23 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Demands? ????

 

Biden doesn't get to demand anything outside the borders of the US. I suggest he puts his own house in order before he starts looking over his neighbours fence. He can start with the BLM riots, unemployment, C19, national debt, the US economy and the trade war with China.

 

Once he's sorted that out inside US borders, he can politely make his opinion known elsewhere (and the world will on the whole, politely ignore him). Forget about 'demands'. 

You’ll be aware of the size of the US GDP and the desperate need of the U.K. to blow smoke up their <deleted> correct ? 
 

The Madagascar trade deal isn’t going to cut it 

23 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself again. I know it's terribly confusing for you so I'll try to explain in simple terms.

 

It's very likely there will be No Deal with the EU. Which goes to prove that your "The UK will take what they are given and like it" theory to be complete and utter nonsense. I repeat, if the terms are good we'll take it, if not we'll walk away. No Deal with the EU would prove that, not disprove it .

Steer clear of trying to take the intellectual high ground chap - it won’t end well for you!

21 hours ago, vogie said:

And? David Davis is correct, there will be a considerable upside to Brexit. Who are you to say otherwise. Getting out of the EU would have been a walk in the park without the anti democratic remainers pulling in the opposite direction. 

David Cameron explained it all to you, you know the man, he was the PM at the time.

So back to the trade deals ......????

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

That would be the same UK which is giving the EU what it wants a little by little every day.

Dare you mention 1939? 

 

????????????????????

As a non anti-Brit I can say what I want.....

8 hours ago, candide said:

Don't worry! There's still Ukraine left! ????

https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/vasyl-myroshnychenko-uk-and-ukraine-sign-historic-post-brexit-free-trade-deal.html

Insurance against the Russian bear - they’ve heard how gullible Boris is ! 

A long-running series of off-topic posts -- dealing with WWII history, personal military service and personal bickering -- have been removed. Enough of that, please!

 

The thread topic is: Biden stresses importance of Northern Irish peace deal in first call to PM Johnson

 

On 11/11/2020 at 9:09 AM, JonnyF said:

At this point, if Boris walked away and declared No Deal I would be happy. We've tried for a fair FTA, but the EU isn't acting in good faith with it's ridiculous demands for continued control, so based on those unreasonable demands it's time to leave the table and prepare for a clean break on January 1st.

 

I'm not sure you understand that

1. you can do whatever you please at home, but
2. you won't sell anything with a FTA with Europe by cheating on quality, or low social standards,
3. cheating on the WA was a very clear warning that any country signing and FTA with the UK need immediate punitive clauses otherwise it will not be respected

as Barnier says :

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 20205 yr by Hi from France

The ultimate Brexit deadline is just days away, and there is fierce infighting in Whitehall (in thick of both pandemic and Brexit talks). 

 

Boris Johnson has one final chance to overhaul a dysfunctional Downing Street operation beset by crises, Conservative MPs have warned after bitter infighting triggered the sudden departure of one of his closest aides.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/12/boris-johnson-on-last-chance-say-tory-mps-after-lee-cain-row

Some off topic posts dragging WW2 into the topic have been removed

On 11/12/2020 at 12:17 AM, CG1 Blue said:

And with only a fraction of the American population being remotely interested in Ireland, as a politician I can't see him making too much of a fuss about the green isle. He might make some noises about it now, but once he gets stuck into the real problems in the US he'll go back to forgetting about Ireland, as he has done for 78 years. 

He'll also forget about the UK's push for a free trade agreement. Not that it matters much despite Brexiters' powerful urge to feast on chlorinated chicken.