Irish PM says "good result" in UK trade talks possible, EU chief says ready for no-deal

[webfact]

Irish PM says "good result" in UK trade talks possible, EU chief says ready for no-deal

By Gabriela Baczynska and Conor Humphries

 

FILE PHOTO: Ireland's Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Micheal Martin speaks to the media as he arrives for the European Union leaders face-to-face summit in Brussels, Belgium October 16, 2020. REUTERS/Johanna Geron/Pool/File photo

 

BRUSSELS/DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's prime minister said on Wednesday there was still time for a "good result" in trade talks between Britain and the European Union, though the bloc's chief executive said the risk of a no-deal split on Dec. 31 remained.

 

The European Commission head, Ursula von der Leyen, said the bloc was ready for the possibility of Britain leaving the EU without a new trade accord despite "genuine progress" in the tortuous Brexit talks.

 

Britain left the EU in January and a status quo transition period expires at the end of this year. The estranged allies are in a last-ditch effort to agree terms to keep trade flowing without tariffs or quotas.

 

"Sometimes you can get a good result in extra time," Ireland's Micheal Martin said when asked if time was running out for an agreement.

 

The three main obstacles to a deal are fishing rights, ways to settle future disputes, and "level playing-field" rules to guarantee fair competition, including on state aid to companies.

 

Martin said he thought there was a "landing zone" in the negotiations over the level playing-field rules, which would lead to an agreement on a dispute resolution mechanism.

 

Von der Leyen said the coming days would be "decisive".

 

"With very little time ahead of us, we will do all in our power to reach an agreement. We are ready to be creative. But we are not ready to put into question the integrity of our single market," she told the European Parliament.

 

An official involved in the negotiations said a deal was possible, but not likely before the weekend at the earliest. An EU diplomat said it was more likely to come next week.

 

The European Commission - which is negotiating with Britain on behalf of the 27-nation bloc - was due to update national envoys to the EU hub Brussels at 0700 GMT on Friday.

 

The head of the European Union's executive on Wednesday reported "genuine progress" in Brexit talks but said the risk of Britain leaving the EU without a deal on Dec. 31 remained, an outcome she said the bloc was prepared for. Ciara Lee reports

 

"We need to establish robust mechanisms, ensuring that competition is – and remains – free and fair over time. In the discussions about state aid, we still have serious issues, for instance when it comes to enforcement," said von der Leyen.

 

The EU needed to be able to retaliate on trade if Britain undercuts labour or environmental standards, she said. It also wanted long-term predictability for its fishing industry, which faces a reduced catch after Brexit.

 

"DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT"

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson told parliament on Wednesday the EU should accept "the reality that we must be able to control access to our waters" to make progress on fisheries.

 

Johnson has repeatedly said he wants a deal with the EU, but only if it respects British sovereignty.

 

The official involved in the talks said that the latest EU and UK ideas for solutions on the three main contentious issues - which include transition periods and review clauses - were still "dramatically different".

 

While the EU wants to lock in joint production standards for the future, as well as ensuring a long-term perspective for its fishing industry, the official said, Britain wants to be able to drop any such commitments after several years.

 

(Reporting by Marine Strauss, Gabriela Baczynska and Robin Emmott, additional reporting by Sarah Young and Elizabeth Piper in London; Writing by Gabriela Baczynska; Editing by Gareth Jones and Peter Graff)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-11-26

 

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[rupert the bear]

its the duty and purpose of both govts to afford an agreement that continues our prosperity ,freedom to move,travel and work with in a new framework.the uk has left the eu and its territory is now independent,that cannot be excluded within the terms of a new agreement.fishings a small part of the overall picture,uk must allow the french in particular access to uk waters but they no longer have a right to fish in another countrys waters.they are no longer eu waters.a canada agreements been left in the gutter .why?we have millions of eu workers in uk they should remain there and new people allowed to come in search for work ,retire there if they wish and vice versa.to not do so is retarded for individuals economies and countries alike.uk or eu nationals cannot now move to other countries to afford themselves of benefits at higher rates.work yes retire yes but support ourselves not on another states resources.this must be applied in even stronger terms to non eu people who enter the eu or uk ,just because they wish to move to a place that affords greater benefits and they break the law to do so doesnt allow them that right.

[Proboscis]

1 hour ago, rupert the bear said:

its the duty and purpose of both govts to afford an agreement that continues our prosperity ,freedom to move,travel and work with in a new framework.the uk has left the eu and its territory is now independent,that cannot be excluded within the terms of a new agreement.fishings a small part of the overall picture,uk must allow the french in particular access to uk waters but they no longer have a right to fish in another countrys waters.they are no longer eu waters.a canada agreements been left in the gutter .why?we have millions of eu workers in uk they should remain there and new people allowed to come in search for work ,retire there if they wish and vice versa.to not do so is retarded for individuals economies and countries alike.uk or eu nationals cannot now move to other countries to afford themselves of benefits at higher rates.work yes retire yes but support ourselves not on another states resources.this must be applied in even stronger terms to non eu people who enter the eu or uk ,just because they wish to move to a place that affords greater benefits and they break the law to do so doesnt allow them that right.

It is a pity that you don't bother to use the conventions of full-stop, capital letter and other grammatical indicators that would have made your comment readable. That said, the trouble with the "lets paint ourselves into a corner" extreme brexiteer position is that a no deal means basis for freedom of movement or anything else. There are also some other birds that are coming home to roost that no one even knew about - one is the market in derivatives worth trillions of dollars that will disappear from London. Trade, including shortages as importers get used to new procedures and tariffs, increased costs, all compounded by the economic depression caused by covid-19. No way can anyone polish this up. No deal is really not an option.

[7by7]

No deal will be bad for the EU; but disastrous for us as we lose tariff free access to our largest market.

 

Much of the financial services industry has already moved to the EU. From 1/10/20 More Than 7,500 Financial Services Jobs Move to Europe from London: EY Brexit Tracker

Quote

More than 7,500 finance jobs and a trillion pounds in assets have already left Britain for the European Union as banks prepare for full-blown Brexit in January, consultants EY said on Thursday.

 

Manufacturing jobs are under threat, too. For example; despite the much vaunted by the government Japanese trade deal, from 18/11/20 Nissan warns on its UK future without a Brexit deal

Quote

With a Brexit deadline just days away, Britain's biggest car plant "will not be sustainable" if there is no deal, Nissan has warned.

The company employs 7,000 workers at its Sunderland factory but said that increased tariffs would raise costs.

It cautioned that any delay in overseas supplies of parts because of new customs checks could slow production.

 

[Loiner]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

Ireland's prime minister said on Wednesday there was still time for a "good result" in trade talks between Britain and the European Union, though the bloc's chief executive said the risk of a no-deal split on Dec. 31 remained.

Just wishful thinking and a healthy dose of bull from the Irish. Well that's what they have always been famous for anyway. Ursula can now feel the No Deal coming but won't or can't do anything about it while her negotiator is being driven by French interests.

They both fully deserve the mire they have created by trying to punish the UK for Brexit.

Only just over a month for us to go now and we will be rid of the EU shackles with No Deal.

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, Loiner said:

<snip>

They both fully deserve the mire they have created by trying to punish the UK for Brexit.

How have they created the mire?

 

How have they tried to punish the UK?

 

Not the first time you've been asked these or similar questions. Will you answer this time or, by ignoring them, prove yet again that you are merely repeating mindless propaganda with no facts to back it up?

[robblok]

So strange of the EU to want a level playing field with equal labor and environmental requirements. For those Brits who are moaning these are the same requirements Canada had to agree with in their free trade agreement. The EU will never depart from this view its time for BJ to wake up and understand that he is in no position to dictate terms. Especially as this is one of the basic principles of the one market.

 

Fishing, the EU should compromise and so should the Brits. 

 

 

[david555]

it is simply said

You wish  something  from me U.K. .... so i E.U. wish something from you in return .....not possible  ?...O.K. a stalemate ... called no deal 

 

That is  it  in essence.... , and more that a leaver has not much anymore to say  as left anyway out of the club an not like  sharing .... only try  grabbing what he had before ...for free and no obligations .

 

E.U. did not kicked U.K. out  ,  just E.U.was forced to accept a leaver ... so why would they now go flat belly.... for what  ?

 

U.K. Still believe E.U. need U.K. more than vice versa ....? ????.... they loose just a % from your losses , but a reasonable % anyway but not the whole plot .

[Loiner]

33 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

Fishing, the EU should compromise and so should the Brits. 

 

 

Yes, they stick to their waters and we stick to ours. Fairest compromise for everybody all round.

[Loiner]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

"Sometimes you can get a good result in extra time," Ireland's Micheal Martin said when asked if time was running out for an agreement.

EU and Ireland still hoping for a Ferguson Man U style win.

Well Boris will be blowing the final whistle before either get that.

[Jack Mountain]

Not easy to build a future with people/countries (UK) who are living in a time period before they even were born ...

 

It looks nice to show a map with just one block and no gaps but when you zoom in you'll know they're just not worth it.

 

EU, let go ... enough.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Jack Mountain

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

Yes, they stick to their waters and we stick to ours. Fairest compromise for everybody all round.

Perhaps but not the most economic for either side. If you had read the article i posted earlier there are better alternatives available. But both need to compromise and then its best for both. 

[Scott Tracy]

Everything is a 'possibility'.

 

Why don't they all just shut the <deleted> up and let the negotiators negotiate?

 

I'm sick of Macron, Merkel and others spouting so much nonsense, when they are not part of the negotiations

[Scott Tracy]

13 hours ago, webfact said:

"Sometimes you can get a good result in extra time," Ireland's Micheal Martin said when asked if time was running out for an agreement.

 

This goes to show what he thinks of deadlines. 

[rupert the bear]

lets make this clear straight off,im doing this on a small keyboard on a phone thats old. we are not on some idiotic grammar quest,this is a forum to exchange ideas.im not a brexiteer nor do i hold an extreme position,we are in a position that is a result of a referendum i personally dont approve of it but thats NOT the point.the democratic process must be respected.so i wish to remind the parties involved that their responsibility is to their citizens welfare and prosperity.not a political dogma,that goes for both teams.my point is clearly that a negotiation will enable the city t serve the europeans and the world financially as other places cannot,uk is a service ind economy they need to make an agreement as  does europe its in both parties interests.im right and your wrong will settle nothing and this dogmatic approach will help neither.uk will be as other countries close to eu and further apart geographically.we need and so do they the movement of workers retirees to continue much as before as theres so much to lose if we do not.the past cannot be changed so we must make the best of where we are right now

[robblok]

8 hours ago, Scott Tracy said:

Everything is a 'possibility'.

 

Why don't they all just shut the <deleted> up and let the negotiators negotiate?

 

I'm sick of Macron, Merkel and others spouting so much nonsense, when they are not part of the negotiations

And you think BJ does the negotiating himself. He says a lot about it too. I guess your a bit bias.

[david555]

8 hours ago, Scott Tracy said:

Everything is a 'possibility'.

 

Why don't they all just shut the <deleted> up and let the negotiators negotiate?

 

I'm sick of Macron, Merkel and others spouting so much nonsense, when they are not part of the negotiations

Same way  we are tiered of Boris ,Farage ,Gove , and Rees Mog's erg,????

 

So better pull the plug out of it as one sided it wont work ????

[robblok]

26 minutes ago, rupert the bear said:

lets make this clear straight off,im doing this on a small keyboard on a phone thats old. we are not on some idiotic grammar quest,this is a forum to exchange ideas.im not a brexiteer nor do i hold an extreme position,we are in a position that is a result of a referendum i personally dont approve of it but thats NOT the point.the democratic process must be respected.so i wish to remind the parties involved that their responsibility is to their citizens welfare and prosperity.not a political dogma,that goes for both teams.my point is clearly that a negotiation will enable the city t serve the europeans and the world financially as other places cannot,uk is a service ind economy they need to make an agreement as  does europe its in both parties interests.im right and your wrong will settle nothing and this dogmatic approach will help neither.uk will be as other countries close to eu and further apart geographically.we need and so do they the movement of workers retirees to continue much as before as theres so much to lose if we do not.the past cannot be changed so we must make the best of where we are right now

Nice post, but the EU is not asking anything else from the UK then what they agree upon with other trade partners. There is always the fair playing field.  In the last negotiations with Canada for instance there were also agreements about labor laws and polution laws and state support.

 

I am not sure why the UK thinks they are special. I saw them talking about that they wanted the same deal as other countries. Such a deal always includes laws on environment (pollution so if you set lower standards to help your companies you will be blocked). Same goes for labor and state support.

 

This is how the EU has done it with all countries, why would the UK be different get a deal but not have to uphold the rules the EU has set for other countries. Its a bit of a delusion. Now if the UK was a powerhouse like China or the US they would have more to say but they are not that powerful.

 

See below this is part of the FTA with Europe. Its all about a level playing field guess the Brexiteers want an advantage to cheat. 

 

Europe has done FTA's with other countries based on the same things, environment, labor, state support.  The Brexiteers seem to think they are special.

 

Bilateral and Regional Free Trade Agreements (FTAs)

The Government of Canada is pursuing an ambitious bilateral and regional trade and investment agenda. In bilateral and regional trade and investment negotiations, Canada seeks to commit its trading partners to maintaining high levels of environmental protection as we engage in liberalized trade and investment. Obligations are set out to foster good environmental governance, mandate the effective enforcement of environmental laws and regulations, and ensure that countries do not compromise their environmental laws to attract trade or investment.

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/topics-domaines/env/trade-commerce-env.aspx?lang=eng

 

 

 

[rupert the bear]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Nice post, but the EU is not asking anything else from the UK then what they agree upon with other trade partners. There is always the fair playing field.  In the last negotiations with Canada for instance there were also agreements about labor laws and polution laws and state support.

 

I am not sure why the UK thinks they are special. I saw them talking about that they wanted the same deal as other countries. Such a deal always includes laws on environment (pollution so if you set lower standards to help your companies you will be blocked). Same goes for labor and state support.

 

This is how the EU has done it with all countries, why would the UK be different get a deal but not have to uphold the rules the EU has set for other countries. Its a bit of a delusion. Now if the UK was a powerhouse like China or the US they would have more to say but they are not that powerful.

 

See below this is part of the FTA with Europe. Its all about a level playing field guess the Brexiteers want an advantage to cheat. 

 

Europe has done FTA's with other countries based on the same things, environment, labor, state support.  The Brexiteers seem to think they are special.

 

Bilateral and Regional Free Trade Agreements (FTAs)

The Government of Canada is pursuing an ambitious bilateral and regional trade and investment agenda. In bilateral and regional trade and investment negotiations, Canada seeks to commit its trading partners to maintaining high levels of environmental protection as we engage in liberalized trade and investment. Obligations are set out to foster good environmental governance, mandate the effective enforcement of environmental laws and regulations, and ensure that countries do not compromise their environmental laws to attract trade or investment.

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/topics-domaines/env/trade-commerce-env.aspx?lang=eng

 

 

 

interesting.lets hope the following week will see a breakthru.the problem as i see it is in the symantics,uk wants to follow laws such as the ones expressed above by canada but doesnt wish to be forced to accept blanket the EUs laws.hopefully theyll reach a compromise as Uk is not a nasty polluter and has many green ideas,it has a lot of decent legislation too,maybe too much we are drowning in redtape and control at times.of course its far from perfect but it does wish to go upward and onward.i myself see and read many comments from both sides.screw the EU punish the brits.its all rather disheartening when they start that.both teams cant win all ,the middle way will help us all.its all about the people not the dogma.prosperity security  we all want the same things in many respects.defence is a sore thumb though.US and uk tank armies sat on the rhine 60 yrs and protected europe,the shield behind which this whole thing grew,that needs to continue and germany etc need to respect that too as it will continue.contribute too .yugoslavia showed us just how inept europe was.the heroes of screbicnica tut tut the germans hiding as usual and letting US and uk forces do what they in some ways made a lot worse.but we diversify!!thats another conversation

[david555]

4 minutes ago, rupert the bear said:

interesting.lets hope the following week will see a breakthru.the problem as i see it is in the symantics,uk wants to follow laws such as the ones expressed above by canada but doesnt wish to be forced to accept blanket the EUs laws.hopefully theyll reach a compromise as Uk is not a nasty polluter and has many green ideas,it has a lot of decent legislation too,maybe too much we are drowning in redtape and control at times.of course its far from perfect but it does wish to go upward and onward.i myself see and read many comments from both sides.screw the EU punish the brits.its all rather disheartening when they start that.both teams cant win all ,the middle way will help us all.its all about the people not the dogma.prosperity security  we all want the same things in many respects.defence is a sore thumb though.US and uk tank armies sat on the rhine 60 yrs and protected europe,the shield behind which this whole thing grew,that needs to continue and germany etc need to respect that too as it will continue.contribute too .yugoslavia showed us just how inept europe was.the heroes of screbicnica tut tut the germans hiding as usual and letting US and uk forces do what they in some ways made a lot worse.but we diversify!!thats another conversation

Just  such posts let us E.U. understand negotiating with U.K. becomes hopeless.....

Good luck on your own !

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, rupert the bear said:

interesting.lets hope the following week will see a breakthru.the problem as i see it is in the symantics,uk wants to follow laws such as the ones expressed above by canada but doesnt wish to be forced to accept blanket the EUs laws.hopefully theyll reach a compromise as Uk is not a nasty polluter and has many green ideas,it has a lot of decent legislation too,maybe too much we are drowning in redtape and control at times.of course its far from perfect but it does wish to go upward and onward.i myself see and read many comments from both sides.screw the EU punish the brits.its all rather disheartening when they start that.both teams cant win all ,the middle way will help us all.its all about the people not the dogma.prosperity security  we all want the same things in many respects.defence is a sore thumb though.US and uk tank armies sat on the rhine 60 yrs and protected europe,the shield behind which this whole thing grew,that needs to continue and germany etc need to respect that too as it will continue.contribute too .yugoslavia showed us just how inept europe was.the heroes of screbicnica tut tut the germans hiding as usual and letting US and uk forces do what they in some ways made a lot worse.but we diversify!!thats another conversation

Its simple if they agree to the EU polution and labor and state support the deal is done fast. But they just don't want to. They are free to have better standards then the EU just not worse and then compete with an unfair advantage. The EU would set the rules as it should be. 

 

Why would the EU allow laws that can give unfair advantage to the UK. They won't so either the UK accepts it or leaves. However the UK seems hell bent on appearing free and setting its own rules. That is not going to happen.

 

I don't get the split UK personality on Germany. Many see it as a danger bringing up WW2 but the Germans have no real army because of WW2. Now people want them to have an army again (i dont mind). But its a bit of a dual thing pointing Germany out as the boogeyman who wants EU dominance while at the same time now wanting them to have a powerful army. Would that not make them more powerful. I am pro Germany having an army as I don't think a thing like WW2 will originate from Germany. I think there is little chance of it happening in Western Europe as an war screws economies too much and the normal people would never go for it. 

[JonnyF]

22 hours ago, webfact said:

"Sometimes you can get a good result in extra time," Ireland's Micheal Martin said when asked if time was running out for an agreement.

And sometimes the Frenchman handballs the ball into your goal, breaking your collective hearts.

 

Prepare for Ireland to screwed again because another Frenchman (Macron) refuses to budge on fishing.

 

 

[david555]

21 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

And sometimes the Frenchman handballs the ball into your goal, breaking your collective hearts.

 

Prepare for Ireland to screwed again because another Frenchman (Macron) refuses to budge on fishing.

 

 

"Prepare for Ireland to screwed again because another Frenchman (Macron) refuses to budge on fishing."

 

 

As screw's the U.K. on ALL the other things on the negotiating table .... ????

Edited November 27, 2020 by david555

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, david555 said:

"Prepare for Ireland to screwed again because another Frenchman (Macron) refuses to budge on fishing."

 

 

As screw's the U.K. on ALL the other things on the negotiating table .... ????

We'll be fine. We don't expect any favours from the EU. Ireland however might feel a little aggrieved at being used as a pawn in negotiations what with being a fully paid up member and all.

 

Nice to know the EU has the backs of all it's members... ???? 

 

 

 

 

[david555]

 (Last bottom line clear's up the fact there was no reaction from U.K. apparently on Mr Barnier demand...????...)

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-michel-barnier-b1762344.html

Brexit: Trade talks in fresh crisis as UK admits it does not know if EU will turn up
No-deal looms as deadline little more than a month away

 

Andrew Woodcock Political Editor
@andywoodcock 7 hours ago

 

Efforts to avert a no-deal Brexit were in fresh crisis on Thursday as Downing Street admitted it does not know if EU negotiator Michel Barnier will turn up for face-to-face talks due to resume on Friday.

 

Mr Barnier was expected in London in the evening, ahead of talks with Boris Johnson’s chief negotiator David Frost, with just 34 days to go to the deadline for a deal.

 

But reports suggest that he has told Lord Frost that he will pull out of this weekend’s talks unless there is a major shift in negotiating stance from the UK. And today, Mr Johnson’s official spokesperson was unable to say whether the discussions would go ahead.
 

Edited November 27, 2020 by david555

[Jack Mountain]

Even if they come to an agreement the atmosphere between the two parties has been ruined for some time to come, even if you take into account that politicians have a giant plate in front of their face (as we say in Holland), the common folks will not forget. 

 

It took Germany many decades before they got fully accepted again.

 

So what's the term for betrayal?

 

[rupert the bear]

15 hours ago, robblok said:

Its simple if they agree to the EU polution and labor and state support the deal is done fast. But they just don't want to. They are free to have better standards then the EU just not worse and then compete with an unfair advantage. The EU would set the rules as it should be. 

 

Why would the EU allow laws that can give unfair advantage to the UK. They won't so either the UK accepts it or leaves. However the UK seems hell bent on appearing free and setting its own rules. That is not going to happen.

 

I don't get the split UK personality on Germany. Many see it as a danger bringing up WW2 but the Germans have no real army because of WW2. Now people want them to have an army again (i dont mind). But its a bit of a dual thing pointing Germany out as the boogeyman who wants EU dominance while at the same time now wanting them to have a powerful army. Would that not make them more powerful. I am pro Germany having an army as I don't think a thing like WW2 will originate from Germany. I think there is little chance of it happening in Western Europe as an war screws economies too much and the normal people would never go for it. 

i see your point but the uk wishes to make it rules itself and they dont wish to conform to a bloc of eu legislation that in the future they cant have any say in but make an agreement that will bind them to this legislation.there should be enough wiggle room to get around that,im confident that issue can be solved with a bit of sense from both parties.fishing too.theres been no large war anywhere since ww2 due to nukes,plain and simple, local conflicts yes.see ethiopia and armenia today and proxy wars in africa and asia in a cold war environment, germany has a large standing force -the bundeswehr and some full time units,they wont deploy even when their decisions lead to conflict or they're obligated, germany was to a large extent responsible for igniting the yugo war by recognising both slovenia and croatian indep without consulting its allies in eu or nato.these 2 states were nazi states in ww2 and were responsible with german help of course for hundreds of thousands of deaths in the camps,many serbs a dumb thing to do at the time with 2 fascists/nat in control. croatia tujman and serbia milosovic! we saw the same again with merkel making an executive decision to import 1 mill people from indeterminant countries that no one knew anything about, massive problems occur and unsurprisingly she tells other countries to deal with her mess.this isn't smart or democratic,it never passed the german govt or eu govt. many countries vehemently disagreed with this statement of power and action.we saw the same with french and german banks holding most of greek debts ,they passed legislation to be paid back to the last penny.

impoverished greece.  a disgrace and the banks should have taken a hair cut as private investors we would have, smacks of corruption.ECB is a strange org, a central bank with a central currency but each country issues its own bonds. having your cake and eating it,that just doesn't look right, euro bonds? no .the dutch and germans keep nixing that one.we were told many times that the eu would reform- its not.more bonapartist centralism especially from macron.id like to see less central power more democracy and sovereignty,fewer gravy trains but we see centralised power increasing and large nos of countries and voters railing against it,polish and hungarian situations are but just 2,if these 2 countries wish to pass laws backed by a majority so be it,i disagree with the ideas on abortion but its their right.we must respect that.as de montesque said,i may vehemently disagree with everything you say but ill lay down my life for your right to say it,IMO the essence of democracy, its getting a bit thin on the ground everywhere unfortunately.we don't want to end up with a situation such as here. the eu is far from perfect as many institutions are but it must respond to problems -structures and non democratic actions.as i said before i have a very split opinion on it ,i'd like to have stayed but camerons treatment was daft,if they'd have given him something uk would have remained easily but he was contemptuously dismissed ahh but we cant change history, we must deal with the here and now.my hope is that an agreement will be done where both sides can feel good and  we the people aren't screwed again!!!that's the bottom line, the citizens.  i've many spanish and polish friends working in uk and that must continue ,lunacy not to and vice versa,the sanctity of burocracy is what disturbs me,wow enough ,excuse any errors as this is a screwed up tiny phone!!

[rupert the bear]

6 hours ago, Jack Mountain said:

Even if they come to an agreement the atmosphere between the two parties has been ruined for some time to come, even if you take into account that politicians have a giant plate in front of their face (as we say in Holland), the common folks will not forget. 

 

It took Germany many decades before they got fully accepted again.

 

So what's the term for betrayal?

 

im not sure if i understand your comment,its not clear,betrayal?to whom do you refer?if its the uk ?you are saying a display of a democratic view in the form of a vote?thats a betrayal and its akin to the actions of the national socialist govt of germany.i may be mistaken as your writing isnt clear .neithers your point.please illuminate us all.we see an atmosphere between many different parties across europe now,poland hungary austria .turkey and france.

[Loiner]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Prepare for Ireland to screwed again because another Frenchman (Macron) refuses to budge on fishing.

 

 

They'll be screwed what ever happens. Not that they deserve any sympathy after the Irish politicians performance in the whole affair. Of course the EU has used them as a pawn but they have also tried to manipulate the situation to their own ends. They should have realised where their bread is buttered and worked to ease the UK transition, while making provisions to support their own industries.

How does the Remainers constant bleating about your closest and largest trading partner compare to Ireland and the UK?

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, Loiner said:

They'll be screwed what ever happens. Not that they deserve any sympathy after the Irish politicians performance in the whole affair. Of course the EU has used them as a pawn but they have also tried to manipulate the situation to their own ends. They should have realised where their bread is buttered and worked to ease the UK transition, while making provisions to support their own industries.

How does the Remainers constant bleating about your closest and largest trading partner compare to Ireland and the UK?

Exactly. Varadkar was giving it the bigunn to the UK when he thought the "big boys" were backing him up. Turns out they were using him as a pawn and will drop them like a hot potato if it helps them protect their precious protectionist racket, sorry I mean single market.

 

I also have little sympathy for them. They may end up being the true losers of Brexit.