Scotland's Sturgeon puts UK on independence warning: We want a referendum soon

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, nkg said:

 

 

I thought that the 16-24 age group voted No by 54.2% to Yes's 45.7%? They must not have known that they were "strongly pro independence" like you do ...

 

 

Well, before we jump to the next point, can I assume that you accept that the demographic of those polled was not representative of the demographics of the country, and that the poll that got you so priapic was somewhat flawed? 

 

But referring to your numbers, the tables I linked in my post show that the 16-24 group were 62% Yes, 19% No and 19% Undecided. I would be more than happy to see the data you are referring to in your last post.

 

 

 

[nkg]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Well, before we jump to the next point, can I assume that you accept that the demographic of those polled was not representative of the demographics of the country, and that the poll that got you so priapic was somewhat flawed? 

 

But referring to your numbers, the tables I linked in my post show that the 16-24 group were 62% Yes, 19% No and 19% Undecided. I would be more than happy to see the data you are referring to in your last post.

 

 

 

The Scottish Referendum Study - surely you've heard of it?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

Quote

A breakdown of voting patterns, drawn from a survey of 5,000 Scots conducted soon after the referendum day, runs counter to the widespread belief that there was a clear split between older and young voters

 

I like how you are now quoting "the poll that was somewhat flawed" as an authority. The bits of it that support your tenuous argument are correct, and the rest is rubbish? ????????????

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, nkg said:

 

The Scottish Referendum Study - surely you've heard of it?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

 

I like how you are now quoting "the poll that was somewhat flawed" as an authority. The bits of it that support your tenuous argument are correct, and the rest is rubbish? ????????????

Please be specific. Which parts were tenuous? 

 

Don't forget, it was you who raised the matter of the poll and I have made no great deal of any of it. I was sceptical of its accuracy initially and then, when I took the most cursory of looks at the data I spotted an unbalanced demographic. 

 

But by all means, look at it is representative if you wish; take comfort from what it tells you because, God knows, Brexit and this Westminster kakistocracy offer very little to be optimistic about. Just don't bet your house on the union lasting another 5 years. You will have enough to deal with in the next few years thanks to the stupidity of Brexit - you don't want to add an eviction to the list. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by RuamRudy

[nkg]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Please be specific. Which parts were tenuous? 

 

When you said "As we all know, the 16 to 55 age range is strongly pro independence".

 

You clearly spent some time looking at the poll data. People on thaivisa rarely bother to try to crunch the numbers, so kudos for that.

 

Let's see how the polls change over the next couple of months ...

[JonnyF]

Good to see the SNP staying classy, getting suspended from Parliament like a troubled adolescent getting suspended from school. Is it any wonder they aren't taken very seriously when they behave like this. These extremist nationalists are really doing a dis-service to their fellow countrymen.

 

It must be infuriating for the 55% of Scots who voted to Remain in the UK seeing the SNP destroy the countries education and health services, then hijack the agenda to deflect from their appalling record, dragging their name through the mud time and time again.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9060675/SNP-MP-Drew-Henry-suspended-House-Commons-shouting-Brexit-bill-passed.html

 

????

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Good to see the SNP staying classy, getting suspended from Parliament like a troubled adolescent getting suspended from school. Is it any wonder they aren't taken very seriously when they behave like this. These extremist nationalists are really doing a dis-service to their fellow countrymen.

 

It must be infuriating for the 55% of Scots who voted to Remain in the UK seeing the SNP destroy the countries education and health services, then hijack the agenda to deflect from their appalling record, dragging their name through the mud time and time again.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9060675/SNP-MP-Drew-Henry-suspended-House-Commons-shouting-Brexit-bill-passed.html

 

????

 

That's the problem with you Brexiteers, Jonny mate, you keep living in the past. Majority support in Scotland for the UK is so 2014.

 

Poll shows Scottish independence support surging to joint record levels as SNP set for majority

 

By Conor Matchett

Thursday, 17th December 2020, 7:00 am

"Support for independence has hit record highs again, with Yes seeing 58 per cent support for the second time, a new poll shows."

 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That's the problem with you Brexiteers, Jonny mate, you keep living in the past. Majority support in Scotland for the UK is so 2014.

 

Poll shows Scottish independence support surging to joint record levels as SNP set for majority

 

By Conor Matchett

Thursday, 17th December 2020, 7:00 am

"Support for independence has hit record highs again, with Yes seeing 58 per cent support for the second time, a new poll shows."

 

I suppose it depends who you want to believe, if any. This poll from two days ago shows you going backwards.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I suppose it depends who you want to believe, if any. This poll from two days ago shows you going backwards.

 

 

 

But as I pointed out a couple of posts back, the demographic of the poll you refer to was badly skewed - 39% of respondents were in the age group 55+, which is predominantly in favour of the status quo, whereas they actually only make up 29% of the population. Conversely, the under 25s, who time and again have been shown to be massively in favour of independence, were not adequately represented in the numbers.

 

Anyway, you have always made clear that you hold no stock in polls. Or is it you only pooh-pooh the polls which don't reflect your own views?

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But as I pointed out a couple of posts back, the demographic of the poll you refer to was badly skewed - 39% of respondents were in the age group 55+, which is predominantly in favour of the status quo, whereas they actually only make up 29% of the population. Conversely, the under 25s, who time and again have been shown to be massively in favour of independence, were not adequately represented in the numbers.

 

Anyway, you have always made clear that you hold no stock in polls. Or is it you only pooh-pooh the polls which don't reflect your own views?

Not at all, I just think you being overly biased will not help to gain you independence, nor will chasing Mrs Sturgeons unicorns.

 

[RuamRudy]

35 minutes ago, vogie said:

Not at all, I just think you being overly biased will not help to gain you independence, nor will chasing Mrs Sturgeons unicorns.

 

Can you provide examples of my being 'overly biased'?

[vogie]

43 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Can you provide examples of my being 'overly biased'?

Polls are as much use as a chocolate fireguard and still you believe them if they go your way, but when the poll shows a reversal to your final goal of independence out comes the, they were the wrong age that got polled. Can't you just accept the poll without having to put your own spin on it.

Scotland is breaking apart, it has the biggest drug problem in europe and all the SNP are worried about is their freedom, are you au fait with all these lies and accusations that are being told by the SNP, it seems to me that they should be focusing on the problems of Scotland and not playing games with their followers.

 

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

Polls are as much use as a chocolate fireguard and still you believe them if they go your way, but when the poll shows a reversal to your final goal of independence out comes the, they were the wrong age that got polled. Can't you just accept the poll without having to put your own spin on it.

 

 

 

The purpose of polling is to give a balanced, representative view of the electorate. I highlighted that the poll was could not be considered representative because it over emphasised a demographic which has a strong persuasion in one direction, whilst under representing a demographic with a strong persuasion in the opposite direction. That is not spin, it is fact - unless, of course, you could disprove it. Feel free to show me as being wrong in my statement, but don't accuse me of spin without putting up first.

 

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

Scotland is breaking apart, it has the biggest drug problem in europe and all the SNP are worried about is their freedom, are you au fait with all these lies and accusations that are being told by the SNP, it seems to me that they should be focusing on the problems of Scotland and not playing games with their followers.

 

I will pose another question that I have posed to you before and you have failed to answer before, but I am nothing if not tenacious. If the SNP are so dire as you say, why do they get such massive support? Why are they predicted to achieve a majority in next year's elections in a parliament specifically set up to prevent majority parties? Why do you, Vogie, think that you are more familiar of the challenges and obstacles which face the Scottish public? What is it that you can see that the Scottish voters cannot see?

 

We hear it from English people every day on social media:

 

Scottish education is dire

Scottish NHS is dire

Scottish economy is dire

Scottish health is dire

 

Yet we still reject your London parties time and again, and put all our trust in the party that has led our country for the past 10 years. Why might that be? Are we stupid and simply cannot see that being London-led is better? Is that it? Are the majority of Scots thick? 

 

Or maybe you haven't a clue about the things you post when it comes to Scotland? 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The purpose of polling is to give a balanced, representative view of the electorate. I highlighted that the poll was could not be considered representative because it over emphasised a demographic which has a strong persuasion in one direction, whilst under representing a demographic with a strong persuasion in the opposite direction. That is not spin, it is fact - unless, of course, you could disprove it. Feel free to show me as being wrong in my statement, but don't accuse me of spin without putting up first.

 

 

I will pose another question that I have posed to you before and you have failed to answer before, but I am nothing if not tenacious. If the SNP are so dire as you say, why do they get such massive support? Why are they predicted to achieve a majority in next year's elections in a parliament specifically set up to prevent majority parties? Why do you, Vogie, think that you are more familiar of the challenges and obstacles which face the Scottish public? What is it that you can see that the Scottish voters cannot see?

 

We hear it from English people every day on social media:

 

Scottish education is dire

Scottish NHS is dire

Scottish economy is dire

Scottish health is dire

 

Yet we still reject your London parties time and again, and put all our trust in the party that has led our country for the past 10 years. Why might that be? Are we stupid and simply cannot see that being London-led is better? Is that it? Are the majority of Scots thick? 

 

Or maybe you haven't a clue about the things you post when it comes to Scotland?  

I would suggest that the SNP get the support they get is by have little or no opposition, but I'll play your game RR, why do the Tories get the support that they get, by your logic it's because they are so good, do you agree?

 

Why do you, Vogie, think that you are more familiar of the challenges and obstacles which face the Scottish public? What is it that you can see that the Scottish voters cannot see?

Where did I say that I am more familiar with the challenges and obstacles, that's correct I didn't, I have never been to North Korea does that mean I am not entitled to have an opinion on the terrible conditions that they live in too, incidentally I have been to Scotland on many ocassions. 

There is no doubt in my mind that the followers of the SNP have been told things that perhaps many would say are less than truthfull and cannot wait until the day that they can get the blue woad out from underneath the kitchen sink.

 

Scottish education is dire

Scottish NHS is dire

Scottish economy is dire

Scottish health is dire

Are you suggesting that you don't have severe problems in the above, you cannot blame Westminster for that.........or can you?

 

Are the majority of Scots thick? 

Certainly not, nor have I ever stated such, suffice to say that SNP followers need to be very carefull what they are told and what is happening to Scotland.

 

Or maybe you haven't a clue about the things you post when it comes to Scotland?  

And finally if you cannot accept the truth and you feel you have to insult me, I would sooner you didn't reply to me, that shouldn't be too difficult should it RR.

[RuamRudy]

37 minutes ago, vogie said:

I would suggest that the SNP get the support they get is by have little or no opposition, but I'll play your game RR, why do the Tories get the support that they get, by your logic it's because they are so good, do you agree?

 

They don't get support. They are disliked and they are not trusted, hence their receiving 25.1% of the vote in the last GE in Scotland, and, in fact, for them not winning ANY election in Scotland since 1955.

As for the rest of the UK, I have no idea why anyone could look at them and think that they were trustworthy or had the best interests of the general public at heart, but that is not relevant to this thread.

But I think I understand the idea that you are pursuing - lack of a better alternative means that the Tories win in England and the SNP win in Scotland? If that is indeed your inference then possibly you are correct - the SNP is more trusted to deliver, and their record is more appreciated.

 

44 minutes ago, vogie said:

Where did I say that I am more familiar with the challenges and obstacles, that's correct I didn't, I have never been to North Korea does that mean I am not entitled to have an opinion on the terrible conditions that they live in too, incidentally I have been to Scotland on many ocassions. 

 

I am not saying that you cannot have an opinion, but when your opinion is so out of step with the majority of voters, could it be that you are not as aware of the reality on the ground?

 

45 minutes ago, vogie said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the followers of the SNP have been told things that perhaps many would say are less than truthfull and cannot wait until the day that they can get the blue woad out from underneath the kitchen sink.

 

But here you go again - the SNP supporters (more than half the country) are gullible and hoodwinked, but you know better. Then you throw in a bit of stereotyping for good measure. 

 

47 minutes ago, vogie said:

Are you suggesting that you don't have severe problems in the above, you cannot blame Westminster for that.........or can you?

 

 

Of course we have, as does NI, Wales, England - they all have huge challenges and nobody is trying to suggest otherwise. But to say that Scotland is performing materially worse in all measures and that this is the fault of the SNP does not explain why they get the support that they get. Therefore I suggest to you that the reality in Scotland is not as it is portrayed to you. Possibly it is you who is the gullible one?

 

49 minutes ago, vogie said:

Are the majority of Scots thick? 

Certainly not, nor have I ever stated such, suffice to say that SNP followers need to be very carefull what they are told and what is happening to Scotland.

 

So we are not thick - we just don't have the nous to separate truth from fiction, and the people who live in the country next door have a better handle on what goes on under our own noses? 

 

50 minutes ago, vogie said:

And finally if you cannot accept the truth and you feel you have to insult me, I would sooner you didn't reply to me, that shouldn't be too difficult should it RR.

 

Oh we are here yet again - probably best Vogie, as you cry this so often. Insult? Because I suggest are not aware of the reality in my country, somehow this is an insult? Thankfully your regular digs about blue faces etc are water off a duck's back. I have literally listened to such <deleted> my entire adult life.

[evadgib]

SNP MP threw a tamtrum in Parliament this afternoon:

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

SNP MP threw a tamtrum in Parliament this afternoon:

 

Ian Blackford makes me laugh, every week for the last 4 years he turns up with a big pile of papers and then comes out with the same 'what aboot oor Scortish independence' then Boris says "the Scots were asked and they said 'no'"????????????

[evadgib]

45 minutes ago, vogie said:

Ian Blackford makes me laugh, every week for the last 4 years he turns up with a big pile of papers and then comes out with the same 'what aboot oor Scortish independence' then Boris says "the Scots were asked and they said 'no'"????????????

They're not having a good day ????

 

[nkg]

 

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Conversely, the under 25s, who time and again have been shown to be massively in favour of independence, were not adequately represented in the numbers.

 

 

Except when they actually voted ???? These figures were polled straight after the referendum:

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

Both the 16-19 and the 20-24 age group voted 54% in favour of staying in the UK.

 

"the under 25s, who time and again have been shown to be massively in favour of independence" - and who then went on to vote against it  ????????????

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, nkg said:

 

 

 

Except when they actually voted ???? These figures were polled straight after the referendum:

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34283948

 

Both the 16-19 and the 20-24 age group voted 54% in favour of staying in the UK.

 

"the under 25s, who time and again have been shown to be massively in favour of independence" - and who then went on to vote against it  ????????????

 

You need to keep up with the here and now, not dwell in the past. Times have changed and so have the attitudes of Scots. 

 

Young Scots rally to independence banner for 2021 elections

" new polling shows huge support for independence among young voters, with 79% of 16- to 24-year-olds and 68% of 25- to 34-year-olds saying they would support leaving the union. Overall, the Ipsos Mori poll suggested 58% of voters in Scotland now backed independence."

 

I am glad that you are putting so much stock in this particular 2014 study, however. I feel particularly hopeful when I remember that the majority of Scots backed independence in 2014.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

They're not having a good day ????

 

 

Yes, but Mogg is a third rate politician who thinks the feeding of children living in poverty because he doesn't want to pay his fair share of taxes is shameful.

That working class people still get behind him and his party is the truly shameful thing. Eternal shame on each and every one of them.

 

Jacob Rees Mogg says Unicef should be 'ashamed' for feeding Britain's hungry kids

SNP MP Tommy Sheppard said: "These ridiculous comments show just how out-of-touch with reality Jacob Rees-Mogg and the rest of the Tories are.

"The scandal is that UNICEF have had to step in to feed hungry children in the UK – it is the UK government that should be ashamed of itself."

[nkg]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You need to keep up with the here and now, not dwell in the past. Times have changed and so have the attitudes of Scots. 

 

Young Scots rally to independence banner for 2021 elections

" new polling shows huge support for independence among young voters, with 79% of 16- to 24-year-olds and 68% of 25- to 34-year-olds saying they would support leaving the union. Overall, the Ipsos Mori poll suggested 58% of voters in Scotland now backed independence."

 

I am glad that you are putting so much stock in this particular 2014 study, however. I feel particularly hopeful when I remember that the majority of Scots backed independence in 2014.

 

 

 

 

 

It's all moot, since there's zero chance of another referendum any time soon. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, nkg said:

 

It's all moot, since there's zero chance of another referendum any time soon. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

 

Certainly Johnson understands that England would be unable to stand on its own two feet, but do you, personally, not support the democratic process?

 

The majority of Scots wanted independence in 2014; now the majority of people living in Scotland want it. It is hardly a union of equals if a party which has barely 10% of MPs in my country can tell the majority that they cannot get what they want - because if you think about it, it is not those 6 Scottish Tory MPs who are denying Scots the right to follow their aspirations.

 

By themselves they are powerless; it is the 358 Tory MPs in England and Wales who are telling the people of Scotland to sit down and shut up. Thankfully, the mood in Scotland is very much the opposite. We are not going to sit down and we are definitely not going to shut up. 

[nkg]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

By themselves they are powerless; it is the 358 Tory MPs in England and Wales who are telling the people of Scotland to sit down and shut up. Thankfully, the mood in Scotland is very much the opposite. We are not going to sit down and we are definitely not going to shut up. 

 

 

There's a small dog living at my neighbour's house. It yaps all day and all night, but I've never considered giving in to its demands.

 

I think it's a Scottie ...

 

[RuamRudy]

Well said, Nicola, an inspirational and inclusive leader who embraces the internationalism that Scots overwhelmingly back. 

 

[evadgib]

Another SNP car crash interview; Enjoy! ????