Scotland's Sturgeon hints at legal move if independence vote blocked

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Is it really?

This seems to be the goto line by Brexiteers these days when you are struggling.

Either accuse the other guy of being anti Brit, anti English or preferably both.

Yes it really is. Re-read your post. You are clearly anti British and even more so anti English. You cheer on the EU in every dispute. You talk down the UK.

 

Classic self loathing, hand wringing, leftist. I can only be grateful your lot lost every vote the past decade. It would be a scary place if you'd won.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   There has been no English nationalism involved at all .

English nationalism is considered to be racist/xenophobic by the media and society at large .

   You want the same as Brexiteers wanted : Independence 

 

Brexit was riven with blood and soil English nationalism. 

The slogan "Taking back control" was a pure dog whistle for them. It meant closing our borders to immigrants.

Farage and his poster showing a long line of refugees.

The (unsubstantiated) claim Turkey was going to join the EU.

UKIP and the Brexit party are basically the National Front with a bit more polish and better PR.

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

The polls in favour of independence are evidence enough that is what Scotland wants.

The rest of your post is simply baseless assertions. Have you seen the voting intentions for the next Hollyrood elections?

In the last general election the Scottish Conservative party ran on a single issue. No more referendums on independence. They lost half their seats.

So keep your head in the sand and keep claiming Scotland is a nation of racists and bigots. Keep claiming we live in dank hovels. Keep claiming you know more about whats happening in Scotland than the Scots do.

Keep recruiting for us ????

Polls predicted Remain in 2016. Hilary beating Trump. A Corbyn win at the GE.

 

Some people never learn.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it really is. Re-read your post. You are clearly anti British and even more so anti English. You cheer on the EU in every dispute. You talk down the UK.

 

Classic self loathing, hand wringing, leftist. I can only be grateful your lot lost every vote the past decade. It would be a scary place if you'd won.

 

And you are obviously a far right racist English nationalist. 

See what I did there?

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Brexit was riven with blood and soil English nationalism. 

The slogan "Taking back control" was a pure dog whistle for them. It meant closing our borders to immigrants.

Farage and his poster showing a long line of refugees.

The (unsubstantiated) claim Turkey was going to join the EU.

UKIP and the Brexit party are basically the National Front with a bit more polish and better PR.

Taking back control meant removing EU interference in UK policy. Nothing more nothing less.

 

It's a shame the SNP cant borrow a bit of that polish. They certainly need it. Although you cant polish a turd.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Polls predicted Remain in 2016. Hilary beating Trump. A Corbyn win at the GE.

 

Some people never learn.

 

12 of them in a row predicted that?

Lets face it. Scotland has not voted tory since the 1950's. You guys do.

Its up to you but we have had enough of having far right extremists running the country.

Best we go our separate ways.

You can have your xenophobic paradise and we will have our inclusive and diverse one. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Taking back control meant removing EU interference in UK policy. Nothing more nothing less.

 

It's a shame the SNP cant borrow a bit of that polish. They certainly need it. Although you cant polish a turd.

 

Absolute nonsense you know as well as I do that "Taking back control" meant immigration. The chance to end freedom of movement because you want to stop eastern Europeans from picking strawberries. 

Not that a true Englishman would ever sully himself by picking those strawberries eh?

No lets force the poor to do it. 

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

 

And you are obviously a far right racist English nationalist. 

See what I did there?

Yes you made a completely unfounded comment. Disgraceful actually. Please quote a post of mine that indicates I am racist or far right. You have clearly run out of logical arguments and are now resorting to baseless insults.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. No wonder the UK population have disdain for you SNP extremists. Thankfully your ilk are consistently defeated at the ballot box.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Yes you made a completely unfounded comment. Disgraceful actually. Please quote a post of mine that indicates I am racist or far right. You have clearly run out of logical arguments and are now resorting to baseless insults.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself. No wonder the UK population have disdain for you SNP extremists. Thankfully your ilk are consistently defeated at the ballot box.

 

Hey you did it to me hence my comment "See what I did there".

And you end your post calling me an "SNP extremist"

Oh the irony. Such hypocrisy. 

You give me a laugh if nothing else Jonny. 

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

12 of them in a row predicted that?

Lets face it. Scotland has not voted tory since the 1950's. You guys do.

Its up to you but we have had enough of having far right extremists running the country.

Best we go our separate ways.

You can have your xenophobic paradise and we will have our inclusive and diverse one. 

We? The 45% who want independence compared to the 55% that dont ?

 

Good luck with those polls. You had your chance and bottled it. 

 

England is way more culturally and racially diverse and inclusive than Scotland. You talk the talk, we walk the walk.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

We? The 45% who want independence compared to the 55% that dont ?

 

Good luck with those polls. You had your chance and bottled it. 

 

England is way more culturally and racially diverse and inclusive than Scotland. You talk the talk, we walk the walk.

 

Still clutching at the last referendum straw?

Bless.

Its not the last one that counts. Its the next one. And with Scotland having seen Brexit its only going to end one way.

So long and thanks for the fish. 

[JonnyF]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

 

Hey you did it to me hence my comment "See what I did there".

And you end your post calling me an "SNP extremist"

Oh the irony. Such hypocrisy. 

You give me a laugh if nothing else Jonny. 

 

If you had any self respect you'd be embarrassed. I thought you were better than that. 

 

I understand your anger at constantly being defeated in the ballot box but calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist is pretty low. I guess it's all you have at this point ????

 

It's a shame. It used to be interesting debating with you with a bit of banter thrown in. I guess constantly losing will make anyone bitter in the end. Sad stuff, good luck finding your peace within the UK ????.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

If you had any self respect you'd be embarrassed. I thought you were better than that. 

 

I understand your anger at constantly being defeated in the ballot box but calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist is pretty low. I guess it's all you have at this point ????

 

It's a shame. It used to be interesting debating with you with a bit of banter thrown in. I guess constantly losing will make anyone bitter in the end. Sad stuff, good luck finding your peace within the UK ????.

You dont do self awareness do you Jonny?

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You dont do self awareness do you Jonny?

 

It's become boring. Every time you tie yourself in knots and can't muster an intelligent reply you resort to screaming Racist. For some reason this is allowed on TV. 

 

It makes the debate with you futile. Anyway, good luck getting your "Independence" ????.

[Dene16]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:58 AM, Surelynot said:

....and for those who claim they have already had a referendum.....Brexit changed everything!

 

So because the majority of Scotland did not want to leave the EU they should claim independence?

It could take up to 5 years to join the EU and to do so will mean they they will have to drastically reduce their deficit budget.Decreasing public spending or higher taxation are the most likely forms  to increase the government coffers . Either way the population are going to have to pay for it  so will they be better off?

In the claim for independence Nicola Sturgeon made claims of an oil boom that would overcome this problem ( in other words lied to the public) as did the opposition

The revenues of North sea oil have continued to decline over the last 5 years and  with the world looking at alternative means of power this looks likely to continue.

Scotland can have independence but just like Brexit it will probably come at a high price  

 

   

[RuamRudy]

ipsos MORI released a new poll today which further reinforces the majority view of Scots that the end of the union is the best option for Scotland and Scots. Highlights:

 

Independence: Yes - 53% / No - 41% / DK - 6%

Brexit: Very pessimistic -32% / Fairly pessimistic - 22% / Very optimistic - 9% / Fairly optimistic - 14%

Most competent to manage education: SNP - 59% / Tories - 33% / Labour - 40% (not a single question hence sum >100%)

Most competent to manage economy: SNP - 59% / Tories - 32% / Labour - 31% (not a single question hence sum >100%)

 

And the 2021 Holyrood election voting intentions:

Regional vote:

SNP - 55%

Con - 22%

Lab - 14%

GRN - 1% 

(so 56% for independence supporting parties)

 

List Vote:

SNP - 47%

Con - 22%

Lab - 16%

GRN - 7%

(54% for independence supporting parties)

 

Details here: https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2020-12/scotland-spom-december-2020-slides.pdf

Edited December 2, 2020 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, Dene16 said:

 

So because the majority of Scotland did not want to leave the EU they should claim independence?

It could take up to 5 years to join the EU and to do so will mean they they will have to drastically reduce their deficit budget.Decreasing public spending or higher taxation are the most likely forms  to increase the government coffers . Either way the population are going to have to pay for it  so will they be better off?

In the claim for independence Nicola Sturgeon made claims of an oil boom that would overcome this problem ( in other words lied to the public) as did the opposition

The revenues of North sea oil have continued to decline over the last 5 years and  with the world looking at alternative means of power this looks likely to continue.

Scotland can have independence but just like Brexit it will probably come at a high price  

 

   

 

All very true, but you forget to mention that the Westminster overhead will be removed entirely, and that Scotland's budget can be set entirely by Scotland with the best interests of the country at the very heart of all decisions.  

 

Nobody is under any illusion that independence will instantly release manna from heaven, but what it will do is release us from the endless cycle of corrupt Westminster governments, which ignore the extremities while shoring up their own and their donors' interests. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by RuamRudy

[Laughing Gravy]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It is not a minor detail, but if a typo then fair enough.

 

 

What is insulting about that? Are you just simply copying Johnson's fanboy and crying 'insult' whenever you are challenged? It really is a tiresome tactic.

 

But your original point was completely without substance - just a barb bereft of context, seemingly intended to rile the jocks. Now you expect me to disprove your hollow statement? Maybe you could offer some of that missing substance and I would be happy to enlighten you. 

So I guess you have no evidence that Scotland has a lot to offer the EU. Again as an independent country I will say it does not and it will be taking from the EU not giving. That is one of the many problems with the EU.

 

You have the opportunity to 'enlighten me', so why not take it.

[stevenl]

9 hours ago, Dene16 said:

 

So because the majority of Scotland did not want to leave the EU they should claim independence?

<snip>

 

   

No, they should not claim independence. But due to a drastically changed political and economical situation, they should have a right to determine what they want. Hence a referendum.

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So I guess you have no evidence that Scotland has a lot to offer the EU. Again as an independent country I will say it does not and it will be taking from the EU not giving. That is one of the many problems with the EU.

 

You have the opportunity to 'enlighten me', so why not take it.

 

It was you who came into the thread with your unsubstantiated nonsense, LG. I believe the onus is on you to 'demonstrate' your assertion or is just fake news. Why has Scotland nothing to offer the EU? 

[Dene16]

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

All very true, but you forget to mention that the Westminster overhead will be removed entirely, and that Scotland's budget can be set entirely by Scotland with the best interests of the country at the very heart of all decisions.  

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

No, they should not claim independence. But due to a drastically changed political and economical situation, they should have a right to determine what they want. Hence a referendum.

 

 

The idea of independence  is far more complex then people are made to believe. Using the pretext of Brexit should not be used to hoodwink the people of Scotland into leaving the UK.

That's not to say that they shouldn't but saying it could be a long and rocky road to get to where they need to be, under the present climate.

i read the SNP's claim for independence in  2016. It made some good arguments for independence but also made a lot of claims that would be very difficult to enact. 

If Scotland had made a claim for independence 20+ years ago i think they would be a thriving nation, however they may have missed the boat as the saying goes.

As RuamRudy has stated it would allow Scotland to allocate its budget where they perceive it to be required and there are numerous opportunities to be exploited such as the vast amount of hydroelectric resources that Scotland has at its disposal for which they seem to be at the forefront of, this being just one example.

A lot will probably depend on their ability to attract new investment/ interest from overseas (that's just my thinking)

Maybe i am playing devils advocate but the people of Scotland need to leave for the right reasons.

Will they be better off in the short term, highly unlikely, will they be better off in the future, who knows?. That's for the people of Scotland to decide

 

[Lormak1]

Scotland is a mess economically. We subsidise the Jocks to the tune of £8bn a year and still they whinge and moan. The EU don't want them either!  Let them go!

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Lormak1 said:

Scotland is a mess economically. We subsidise the Jocks to the tune of £8bn a year and still they whinge and moan. The EU don't want them either!  Let them go!

Can you be specific, please? In what way is it in a mess? Who is the 'we' to which you refer? Who in the EU stated that they don't want Scotland? 

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, Dene16 said:

The idea of independence  is far more complex then people are made to believe. Using the pretext of Brexit should not be used to hoodwink the people of Scotland into leaving the UK.

 

Are you suggesting that around 56% of the Scottish electorate is unable to make informed decisions for themselves? 

 

11 hours ago, Dene16 said:

That's not to say that they shouldn't but saying it could be a long and rocky road to get to where they need to be, under the present climate.

 

Nobody is disputing that the coming years are going to be challenging, but that is going to be the reality for just about every country in the world. Remaining in the UK, with Brexit and our corrupt and incompetent Tory party leading us out of the mire they have partly created does not seem, to me, to be a more appealing alternative. 

 

11 hours ago, Dene16 said:

A lot will probably depend on their ability to attract new investment/ interest from overseas (that's just my thinking)

 

Agreed - but we are on that already:

Scotland second only to London for inward investment

 

11 hours ago, Dene16 said:

Will they be better off in the short term, highly unlikely, will they be better off in the future, who knows?. That's for the people of Scotland to decide

 

I struggle with this argument about an independent future leading to a poorer country. The UK is not now or ever been the land of milk and honey; it has absolutely nothing unique to offer that we could not accomplish as an independent country. Climbing out of the disaster that Brexit has and will continue to create would be hard enough in itself, but the addition of Covid is going to bring an already weakened UK to its knees. Rather than trust a Tory government to lead us out of this hole, I would much rather we did it ourselves. I have no doubt that we will recover quicker and stronger than if we left it to that lot. 

[Laughing Gravy]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It was you who came into the thread with your unsubstantiated nonsense, LG. I believe the onus is on you to 'demonstrate' your assertion or is just fake news. Why has Scotland nothing to offer the EU? 

Silence speaks volumes and no, I stated an independent Scotland has nothing to offer the EU and will be a country taking and not giving.

 

Like now Scotland gets 15 billion more than it puts in the UK. So what will Scotland have to offer?

 

It will have to join the Euro. it hasn't got its own currency. I could go on but again and for the final time.

 

What has an independent Scotland got to offer the EU from a financial point of view other than being a thorn in the UK side which the EU would love.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Silence speaks volumes and no, I stated an independent Scotland has nothing to offer the EU and will be a country taking and not giving.

 

Like now Scotland gets 15 billion more than it puts in the UK. So what will Scotland have to offer?

 

It will have to join the Euro. it hasn't got its own currency. I could go on but again and for the final time.

 

What has an independent Scotland got to offer the EU from a financial point of view other than being a thorn in the UK side which the EU would love.

 

Well there are all those fish for a start.

Doesnt Englands territorial waters look really small without Scotlands. 

 

[NanLaew]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:43 PM, Rookiescot said:

UKIP and the Brexit party are basically the National Front with a bit more polish and better PR.

 

Two parties that failed to register on the national voting 'swing-o-meter' and for the greater part, fielded no-name candidates that lost their deposits.

[Mavideol]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:32 AM, JonnyF said:

 

1. Scotland voted in 2014 and it's population voted to Remain.

 

2. The UK is a sovereign nation whereas the EU is a trading bloc.

 

Apart from that, a brilliant point well made ????.

 

#2 The UK is a sovereign nation .... whereby has 4 different countries representing themselves separately/individually in any world sports event..... but UK  it's a sovereign nation (when convenient) or a group of 4 sovereign nations whereby each one of them is trying to get the best share of the cake and protect their Own interest but it's called United Kingdom  555

[NanLaew]

On 12/3/2020 at 3:39 AM, RuamRudy said:

 

All very true, but you forget to mention that the Westminster overhead will be removed entirely, and that Scotland's budget can be set entirely by Scotland with the best interests of the country at the very heart of all decisions.  

 

Nobody is under any illusion that independence will instantly release manna from heaven, but what it will do is release us from the endless cycle of corrupt Westminster governments, which ignore the extremities while shoring up their own and their donors' interests. 

 

Good points and, as always, well argued.

 

When it comes to replacing the corruption in Westminster with a home-grown variety in Holyrood, I don't see the current SNP clique being remarkably squeaky clean and above reproach. We are talking about career politicians here. Just because we can understand their accent, it doesn't make them more decent and may encourage the died-in-the-wool nationalists to blindly give them the benefit of the doubt. It's akin to this coming weekend's F1 where the indisposed seven-times world champion's car is being given to the rookie.

Edited December 4, 2020 by NanLaew

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

 

Good points and, as always, well argued.

 

When it comes to replacing the corruption in Westminster with a home-grown variety in Holyrood, I don't see the current SNP clique being remarkably squeaky clean and above reproach. We are talking about career politicians here. Just because we can understand their accent, it doesn't make them more decent and may encourage the died-in-the-wool nationalists to blindly give them the benefit of the doubt. It's akin to this coming weekend's F1 where the indisposed seven-times world champion's car is being given to the rookie.

 

I definitely don't have any starry eyes notion of a higher standard of Scottish integrity, and my goal is definitely not an SNP led independent Scotland.

 

On the latter, even if I wanted that, I don't see the SNP surviving for too long after independence. It is a party with a very broad spectrum of views, politically, united by a common belief that independence is better than continued dependence. 

 

I expect that we will have a more traditional array of parties available to us, but I hope for a much better, more representative voting system which avoids winner takes all farces like we see in Westminster. 

 

I also hope that we design the checks and balances as tightly as possible such that our government is held to much higher levels of oversight and scrutiny. We are starting with a blank sheet of paper - time to forget about the flawed old ways and design a democratic process that actually works for the people. It sounds somewhat clichéd, but there is no reason it cannot be achieved if the will is there.