Britain in 'final throw of the dice' as EU trade talks set to restart

[Surelynot]

First Brexit shortages are now being reported........Popcorn has run out in the EU

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

 

[JonnyF]

3 hours ago, shackleton said:

Well let's hope Boris gets a deal  or the brexiteers are in for a rude awaking

loss of jobs ect 

For us here in Thailand a low pound less baht

Yesterday the pound  $1.35 on expecting good news on a deal

Now $1.32.60 on maybe no deal could get worse if that happens 

Another Remainer who only really cares about the value of the pound. You'd sell your country out for an extra 10,000 baht a month from your pension. 

 

For all the cries of Racist, Bigot etc. towards Brexiteers that's what it really boils down for many remainers. Sad.

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Another Remainer who only really cares about the value of the pound. You'd sell your country out for an extra 10,000 baht a month from your pension. 

 

For all the cries of Racist, Bigot etc. towards Brexiteers that's what it really boils down for many remainers. Sad.

 What is sad, no not sad; appalling, is the number who waved their flag and cried 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!' as they marked their cross without giving a moments thought to the real consequences of their actions.

 

It wont affect you out there in Thailand, until the pound falls so low you can't meet your visa requirements anymore, but the economic effects of Brexit, especially if there is no deal, here in the UK could very well be dire. 

 

Jobs have already been lost (example), many more could be lost as major manufacturers are talking of moving lock stock and barrel to the EU if there's no deal (example), investment fund managers such as Rees-Moggs' company have already moved some of their funds out of the UK.

 

Then there are the probable rises in food prices if there is no deal. "Eat home produced food!" you may proclaim. The UK has not been self sufficient in food since the 19th century! 

[david555]

 ( The paused phone call (on Pm Boris request...???? ) seems to be ended now ..)

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-pm-and-eu-chiefs-phone-call-ends-with-significant-differences-still-in-place-12154474

 

BREAKING  
Brexit: PM and EU chief's phone call ends with 'significant differences' still in place

By Aubrey Allegretti, political reporter

Monday 7 December 2020 18:52, UK

A phone call between Boris Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen has ended without a breakthrough, with a joint statement saying "significant differences" remain in trade talks.

 

They added "the conditions for finalising an agreement are not there" because of disagreements over the level playing field, governance and fisheries. It comes after the two leaders held another phone call on Saturday in which they agreed to make a "further effort" to reach a deal.

 

There is less than a month to go until the end of the transition period - due to end on 31 December. It came into force after Brexit happened on 31 January.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by david555

[vinny41]

Hard remainers wouldn't accept a soft Brexit. Now we're all paying the price

 

Anything other than stopping Brexit was written off as both disastrous for the country and morally untenable

 

 Don’t listen to me; heed the words of Peter Mandelson instead, who has declared that this is “the price the rest of us in the pro-EU camp will pay for trying, in the years following 2016, to reverse the referendum decision rather than achieve the least damaging form of Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/remainers-britain-soft-brexit

[Hi from France]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Another Remainer who only really cares about the value of the pound. You'd sell your country out for an extra 10,000 baht a month from your pension. 

Can you explain us how having a poorer and weaker UK is patriotic ?

 

 

 

Here is the sad reality:

 

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Hard remainers wouldn't accept a soft Brexit. Now we're all paying the price

 

Anything other than stopping Brexit was written off as both disastrous for the country and morally untenable

there was a whole range of variants of brexit, most of them keeping best  the synergies with UK neighboring nations. For four years the UK has fallen deeper and deeper into a trap: becoming more and more radical.

 

The result is -2% national wealth now with an additional -4% to -8% in the end

 

 

The brits in power until now had been clever enough to get "the best of both worlds", now all the UK ends up with is a populist leader, a government filled with incompetent careerists and an electoral base who is only realizing now they have been duped.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Hi from France

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Another Remainer who only really cares about the value of the pound. You'd sell your country out for an extra 10,000 baht a month from your pension. 

By the way, how much overall did you loose pension-wise since the Brexit referendum?

 

And in comparison with other expats is there a difference with a pension in euros / dollars instead? 

[7by7]

59 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Hard remainers wouldn't accept a soft Brexit. Now we're all paying the price

 

Anything other than stopping Brexit was written off as both disastrous for the country and morally untenable

 

 Don’t listen to me; heed the words of Peter Mandelson instead, who has declared that this is “the price the rest of us in the pro-EU camp will pay for trying, in the years following 2016, to reverse the referendum decision rather than achieve the least damaging form of Brexit”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/07/remainers-britain-soft-brexit

 

In the article you have copied and pasted most of your post from, Owen Jones does make some excellent points. But I do have an issue with the way you are using the headline and opening paragraph alone in presenting his argument.

 

As he makes clear from the second paragraph on, in his opinion it wasn't just hard Remainers who wouldn't accept what he refers to as a soft Brexit; it was also hard Brexiteers. An opinion with which I agree.

 

Am I a hard Remainer or a soft one? Good question.

 

In 2016 I accepted the referendum decision. I didn't agree with it, but I accepted it. However, as more and more of the consequences of Brexit, especially Vote.Leave's lies about the single market, became clear my position shifted from this to one which was neatly summed up in the Independent's  2nd August 2018 editorial: The referendum gave sovereignty to the British people, so now they deserve a final say on the Brexit deal.

 

Though some would say that the result of the 2019 General Election negated the need for any such referendum, a reminder that parties which in one way or another supported the idea polled around 52% of the vote.

 

52%; that's a familiar figure!

 

[Hi from France]

From an article by LeMonde, if these innocents had know they would become slaves and live in poverty only to be liberated 47 years later ????

 

 

[Hi from France]

Quote

Boris Johnson will travel to Brussels for a face-to-face summit with the European commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, in an 11th-hour attempt to break the impasse in the Brexit negotiations.

 

Quote

“Talks are in the same position now as they were on Friday,” a UK government source said. “We have made no tangible progress.

 

Quote

One senior EU diplomat added: “We shall light a candle for them.”

 

Quote

Ireland’s foreign minister, Simon Coveney, said there would need to be a major change in the British approach for the upcoming summit to be a success. “The next two days need to be very different to the last two days,” he said. “In Brussels certainly the mood is starting to shift to contingency planning for a no deal, as opposed to the compromises that are necessary to get a deal done. That is not where we want this to go.”

 

Quote

EU sources said there had been no need for him make a second call to Von der Leyen to discuss an alternative plan as Downing Street was in agreement on a statement announcing the make-or-break summit.

 

Quote

A senior EU diplomat said: “The outcome is still uncertain, it can still go both ways. The EU is ready to go the extra mile to agree on a fair, sustainable and balanced deal for citizens in the EU and UK. It is for the UK to choose between such a positive outcome or a no-deal outcome.”

 

Quote

Tentative progress on the issue of EU fleets’ access to British fishing waters, was upended late on Sunday night when Frost is understood to have tabled new demands about the ownership of vessels in British seas. Under the proposals, any foreign majority-owned vessels would not be allowed to sail under the UK flag

 

Quote

On the so-called level playing field clauses in the treaty, Barnier said the issue of “non-regression” from current standards had progressed well but that common ground had still not been found on the EU’s demand for a “ratchet clause”.

 

Quote

The provision would ensure a baseline of minimum environmental, social and labour standards raises on both sides over time. The issue was fast becoming the biggest obstacle to a deal, EU diplomats said.

 

Quote

Veteran Brexiter Peter Bone said he was confident that Johnson would bring back a deal that “takes back control of our laws, borders and trade”, adding: “I bet my house on it that he will not betray those principles.”

good luck with your bet, Veteran Brexiter, we all know Johnson is a man of his word

:)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/07/brexit-boris-johnson-brussels-face-to-face-meeting-ursula-von-der-leyen

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Hi from France

[JonnyF]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 What is sad, no not sad; appalling, is the number who waved their flag and cried 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!' as they marked their cross without giving a moments thought to the real consequences of their actions.

 

It wont affect you out there in Thailand, until the pound falls so low you can't meet your visa requirements anymore, but the economic effects of Brexit, especially if there is no deal, here in the UK could very well be dire. 

 

Jobs have already been lost (example), many more could be lost as major manufacturers are talking of moving lock stock and barrel to the EU if there's no deal (example), investment fund managers such as Rees-Moggs' company have already moved some of their funds out of the UK.

 

Then there are the probable rises in food prices if there is no deal. "Eat home produced food!" you may proclaim. The UK has not been self sufficient in food since the 19th century! 

 

My Thailand visa doesn't depend on how much money I have in a Thai bank. Stop assuming everyone's circumstances are the same as yours. A weak pound over the next 5 years suits me (and no doubt many others), for example UK exporters.

 

Until Covid struck, UK unemployment was down since Brexit by several hundred thousand. I've provided links to this many times.

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unemployment-to-double-as-coronavirus-ravages-economy-g8ljhgjdj

 

The JRM argument is so lame. Of course investments are made outside the UK. If you knew anything about investing you'd know this, you spread your portfolio across many sectors in many countries. It's called diversifying, to put it simply you don't put all your eggs in one basket. JRM is no different, you can't expect him to invest 100% in UK stocks either before or after Brexit, it wouldn't make sense for any fund manager to do that.

 

We can source food from elsewhere, cheaper. It's a big world out there and the EU isn't the only shop in the village, as they are about to find out.

[david555]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

 

good luck with your bet, Veteran Brexiter, we all know Johnson is a man of his word

????

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/07/brexit-boris-johnson-brussels-face-to-face-meeting-ursula-von-der-leyen

 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-boris-johnson-the-enfant-terrible-to-plead-for-trade-deal-12154662

 

It is unlikely that the prime minister will receive a warm welcome when he travels to Brussels this week, says Sky's Jon Craig.

By Jon Craig, chief political correspondent

 

 

Months of COVID-enforced phone calls, Zooming and virtual meetings have proved fruitless in the search for a Brexit trade deal.

So Boris Johnson now has to go to Brussels for a face-to-face showdown with his tormenters: European leaders who regard him with contempt for his role in Brexit.

 

 

The prime minister will travel to the city where he made his name as a journalist writing stories claiming the European Union wanted to ban prawn cocktail crisps, bent bananas and curved cucumbers.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by david555

[JonnyF]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

By the way, how much overall did you loose pension-wise since the Brexit referendum?

 

And in comparison with other expats is there a difference with a pension in euros / dollars instead? 

None.

 

I am not retired, I earn in Baht.

[JonnyF]

5 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Can you explain us how having a poorer and weaker UK is patriotic ?

 

 

 

Here is the sad reality:

 

there was a whole range of variants of brexit, most of them keeping best  the synergies with UK neighboring nations. For four years the UK has fallen deeper and deeper into a trap: becoming more and more radical.

 

The result is -2% national wealth now with an additional -4% to -8% in the end

 

 

The brits in power until now had been clever enough to get "the best of both worlds", now all the UK ends up with is a populist leader, a government filled with incompetent careerists and an electoral base who is only realizing now they have been duped.

 

Long term we won't be poorer.

 

Stop passing your biased opinions and dodgy predictions off as facts.

[Phulublub]

18 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The JRM argument is so lame. Of course investments are made outside the UK. If you knew anything about investing you'd know this, you spread your portfolio across many sectors in many countries. It's called diversifying, to put it simply you don't put all your eggs in one basket. JRM is no different, you can't expect him to invest 100% in UK stocks either before or after Brexit, it wouldn't make sense for any fund manager to do that.

It is not the investments that are in question, it is the location of the management of the funds. 

 

Prior to Brexit, how many and how much of JRM Funds were managed in London, and how many in the EU?  Post Brexit, how has that number changed?  If Brexit (for which JRM is a leading advocate) is so monumentally brilliant why did he and his cronies feel the need to suddenly have a significant portion managed not in the UK but in the EU? 

 

Watch what they do, not what they say.

 

PH

[Hi from France]

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Long term we won't be poorer.

First you remember John Maynard Keynes' quotation “In the long run we are all dead”.

 

In the long term you and me will be dead while the young brits who voted against brexit will have to stand the consequence of your decisions.

 

if it's really "long term", why not abstain and let  young citizens who will actually have to live with it decide for themselves?

 

 

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Stop passing your biased opinions and dodgy predictions off as facts.

These are not my opinions 

 

These are forecasts by the top British economists : As I remember, the studies I'm quoting are long term (=Brexit consequences after the next 8-10 years) and originate from the LSE and the current British government office.

 

Do you have credible sources backing your own forecasts or is it just your personal instinct of what is going to happen after you die? Beside the tunnel of light leading to pure tranquillity, I mean.

[Phulublub]

19 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Long term we won't be poorer.

 

Stop passing your biased opinions and dodgy predictions off as facts.

Perhaps you should explain that to your fellow Brexiteers who keep telling us it is not about the economic costs but about "regaining sovereignty" and "taking back control" and other equally meaningless and/or false soundbites.  They do not seem to share your view. 

 

But then you all knew what you were voting for - even if they were all different, and some contradictory.

 

PH.

[Hi from France]

18 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

It is not the investments that are in question, it is the location of the management of the funds. 

yeah it what really a stroke of genius for the City to be the financial heart of Europe, managing our money, hosting our banking authority, promoting British Empire-related tax havens...

 

.. while not paying regular membership fees, and not even adopting the European currency.

 

 

I do not think the city will be replaced at once by New York, Singapore or Shanghai, but the Brexit deal will not include anything on finance. This does cast a big shadow on the future of the City, as our money is now managed from our countries and according to our own rules.

Quote

the “passporting” rights that have long allowed them to sell funds, debt, advice or insurance to clients across the eu unimpeded, as if they were domestic. Thousands of jobs and well over £1trn ($1.3trn) of assets have already been shifted to continental Europe as City firms confront this new friction

https://www.economist.com/britain/2020/10/24/what-brexit-will-do-to-the-city-of-london

 

 

This is far from done, but we have now a very good chance at taking back control of our savings, our stock exchange, our bond market, our currency market, our insurance industry.????????

 

 

.

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Hi from France

[Phulublub]

2 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

I do not think the city will be replaced at once by New York, Singapore or Shanghai, but the Brexit deal will not include anything on finance. This does cast a big shadow on the future of the city, as our money is now managed from our countries and according to our own rules.

Indeed.  The tax income from the City of London is HUGE. 

 

But that jolly indomitable British spirit will see us through.  We don't need your stinking foreign money.  Or food.  Or cars.  Or...or....  We only bought loads of them every year because, well, er, hmmm.....we can grow our own food, and walk to the fields to pick it - we will be living in sunny uplands don't forget; none of that nasty foreign weather anymore.

 

Bye bye World.  Engerlund, Engerlund, Engerlund.....

 

PH

 

 

[luckyluke]

36 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

Stop passing your biased opinions and dodgy predictions off as facts.

 

I assume that for you "Long term we won't be poorer" can not be labelled as a "biased opinion".

[JonnyF]

44 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

It is not the investments that are in question, it is the location of the management of the funds. 

 

Prior to Brexit, how many and how much of JRM Funds were managed in London, and how many in the EU?  Post Brexit, how has that number changed?  If Brexit (for which JRM is a leading advocate) is so monumentally brilliant why did he and his cronies feel the need to suddenly have a significant portion managed not in the UK but in the EU? 

 

Watch what they do, not what they say.

 

PH

 

There could be many purposes to this. Maybe his firm has a lot of non resident Investors. For example, I have Luxembourg domiciled funds. Many clients resident outside the UK prefer to invest outside the UK, in jurisdictions such as Luxembourg or Ireland – which do not levy tax on non-resident investors.

 

You think he's doing it because he expects the UK to collapse?

 

 

[JonnyF]

34 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

I assume that for you "Long term we won't be poorer" can not be labelled as a "biased opinion".

 

I'd label it an informed, considered, intelligent opinion ????.

[JonnyF]

56 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Perhaps you should explain that to your fellow Brexiteers who keep telling us it is not about the economic costs but about "regaining sovereignty" and "taking back control" and other equally meaningless and/or false soundbites.  They do not seem to share your view. 

 

But then you all knew what you were voting for - even if they were all different, and some contradictory.

 

PH.

 

I don't see it as contradictory.

 

You can vote for Brexit to regain sovereignty and then see the long term economic upside as a side effect.

[Phulublub]

17 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

There could be many purposes to this. Maybe his firm has a lot of non resident Investors. For example, I have Luxembourg domiciled funds. Many clients resident outside the UK prefer to invest outside the UK, in jurisdictions such as Luxembourg or Ireland – which do not levy tax on non-resident investors.

 

You think he's doing it because he expects the UK to collapse?

 

 

Ah, I see.....

 

His firm realised that they had a lot of non resident investors and that with the UK leaving the EU many of them would likely leave his firm if they stayed in the UK (now outside EU).  Bye bye UK tax income.  And jobs.  Well done JRM - THAT was what you were leading us to.

 

PH

 

[Phulublub]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

I don't see it as contradictory.

 

You can vote for Brexit to regain sovereignty and then see the long term economic upside as a side effect.

There is no long term economic upside.

 

PH

[JonnyF]

Just now, Phulublub said:

There is no long term economic upside.

 

PH

In your opinion.

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

In your opinion.

Not just mine.  But then another of your Brexit leaders did say "We are tired of experts".  So WTFDIK

 

PH

Edited December 8, 2020 by Phulublub

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Ah, I see.....

 

His firm realised that they had a lot of non resident investors and that with the UK leaving the EU many of them would likely leave his firm if they stayed in the UK (now outside EU).  Bye bye UK tax income.  And jobs.  Well done JRM - THAT was what you were leading us to.

 

PH

 

 

Nothing to do with Brexit.

 

Luxembourg has been a tax haven since the 60's. Ireland acts in a similar fashion, although denies it.

 

In fact 7 EU countries have been labeled tax havens, so maybe blame them, not JRM. Juncker had many fingers in that pie.

 

https://www.icij.org/investigations/luxembourg-leaks/seven-eu-countries-labeled-tax-havens-in-parliament-report/

 

[transam]

15 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

What changes would they be; and how were they caused by our EU membership?

 

You can't mean the increased number of people from the Commonwealth, for example South Asia, West Africa and the West Indies, over the last 60 plus years as those who didn't enter via their mother's birth canal did so via our own immigration rules.

 

Neither of which have anything to do with the EU!

No, mainly drunken EU low-life pissing up my shop door whilst they all laying about on my forecourt getting legless on cheap beer.

You should really get out more....