No Entity For Community - Is is legal for someone to live inside the community pool toilet room?

[Thomas J]

Live inside a gated community.  Like most associations there is always a controversy over the collection of community fees and how they are spent. At present, the person charged with being president of the association is not a homeowner within the community but rather is paying the mortgage and living in the home that is in her aunts name.  As a result it is "said" she can not form a legal entity.  Is this true? 

 

1. There has been disagreement since this person collects the community fees only in cash and refuses to provide any accounting of how monies are spent.  There is no bank account in the name of the community and fees from certain properties that are bank owned are transmitted into the presidents personal account.  Is that legal

 

2. The president has a friend who she installed as "security" for the community.  Several people have expressed displeasure with him and want him replaced.  She indicated that she can not replace him because we never established a job description and if he is terminated the community could be sued and liable for a large severance.  I find that hard to believe but does anyone know if there is such a "job guarantee" law here in Thailand.  In the USA you are unless under contract an "at will" employee that can be terminated without cause at will. 

3.  The president unilaterally made the decision to allow this security guard to live inside the toilet room that services the common pool.  Aside from the fact that that eliminates any toilet facilities at the pool does anyone know if there are any laws that prohibit living in a toilet room.  Here again in the USA many have attempted to live inside sheds, storage lockers, windowless basements etc and they are not allowed since they do not meet the ordinances required to be allowed for living spaces.  If it is against the law, what agency in Thailand would enforce it?

 

[bradiston]

On 1/13/2021 at 10:53 AM, Thomas J said:

Live inside a gated community.  Like most associations there is always a controversy over the collection of community fees and how they are spent. At present, the person charged with being president of the association is not a homeowner within the community but rather is paying the mortgage and living in the home that is in her aunts name.  As a result it is "said" she can not form a legal entity.  Is this true? 

 

1. There has been disagreement since this person collects the community fees only in cash and refuses to provide any accounting of how monies are spent.  There is no bank account in the name of the community and fees from certain properties that are bank owned are transmitted into the presidents personal account.  Is that legal

 

2. The president has a friend who she installed as "security" for the community.  Several people have expressed displeasure with him and want him replaced.  She indicated that she can not replace him because we never established a job description and if he is terminated the community could be sued and liable for a large severance.  I find that hard to believe but does anyone know if there is such a "job guarantee" law here in Thailand.  In the USA you are unless under contract an "at will" employee that can be terminated without cause at will. 

3.  The president unilaterally made the decision to allow this security guard to live inside the toilet room that services the common pool.  Aside from the fact that that eliminates any toilet facilities at the pool does anyone know if there are any laws that prohibit living in a toilet room.  Here again in the USA many have attempted to live inside sheds, storage lockers, windowless basements etc and they are not allowed since they do not meet the ordinances required to be allowed for living spaces.  If it is against the law, what agency in Thailand would enforce it?

 

Find a lawyer, one that will take a case against a Thai. Maybe hard to find, but an overseas law firm used to handling "farang affairs" would take this, I'm sure. Combine with other residents if possible. The whole thing sounds completely cockeyed.

[Thomas J]

2 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Find a lawyer, one that will take a case against a Thai. Maybe hard to find, but an overseas law firm used to handling "farang affairs" would take this, I'm sure. Combine with other residents if possible. The whole thing sounds completely cockeyed.

Heading to the land office today to get documentation that she is not a jurastic person in charge of a legal entity over the housing.  I hate associations.  Everyone complains but no one wants controversy so they just allow the infractions to go on.  No one wants the job so even if the person doing it is scraping money for herself no one wants to question it.  

In any association I have ever been involved with all payments always go into an account in the name of the association and all expenses paid out of it.  Here, she wants only the fees in cash and all payments for all bills are paid by cash.  Never not even once any accounting of monies coming in, or expenses paid.  I can't believe she does the job out of the "goodness of her heart" 

[bradiston]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Heading to the land office today to get documentation that she is not a jurastic person in charge of a legal entity over the housing.  I hate associations.  Everyone complains but no one wants controversy so they just allow the infractions to go on.  No one wants the job so even if the person doing it is scraping money for herself no one wants to question it.  

In any association I have ever been involved with all payments always go into an account in the name of the association and all expenses paid out of it.  Here, she wants only the fees in cash and all payments for all bills are paid by cash.  Never not even once any accounting of monies coming in, or expenses paid.  I can't believe she does the job out of the "goodness of her heart" 

I can't see you're going to get very far on your own. It'll more than likely be a huge amount of running around with massive language barrier problems, not to mention cultural. For me, a lawyer would be the only way forward.

[wombat]

sounds like a rice bowl is about to be upset.

[sherwood]

Have a quick look at this info, will give you some confidence in your future actions.

You may need a Law firm or at least the backing of some fellow owners.

Good luck

 

https://magnacarta.co.th/faq-section-2/condominium-juristic-management/

[Ireland32]

Document everything pictures of this Toilet Dweller 

[PGSan]

US law and common practice is not at all relevant here, any more than is UK, German or Chinese! 

[Thomas J]

14 minutes ago, PGSan said:

US law and common practice is not at all relevant here, any more than is UK, German or Chinese! 

I would agree with that. In USA you would need a signed agreement between the homeowner and community association. There would be a formal document of bylaws stating what both parties were responsible for. Also even with permission a person would not be allowed to live in areas not meeting code for living quarters

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, PGSan said:

US law and common practice is not at all relevant here, any more than is UK, German or Chinese! 

You think Thailand doesn't have laws?

[1FinickyOne]

1.] That's not good - theft highly likely

2.] that's not good either

3.] nor that... 

 

US laws are not applicable here, but this person should not be in charge... rally your other owners. This can come to no good. 

 

Good luck

[davidcraig]

If you do get a lawyer. How will you make sure your lawyer is actually working for you? How will you know they haven't contacted your opponent and are taking money from them?

[Delight]

 To my knowledge there is no Thai law(Reference Walled Estates) -which is as comprehensive as the Condominium Act.

 

There is some kind of legal protection -but very weak.So seeing a lawyer  maybe pointless. 

 

You may be able to convert the estate to a Juristic Person-which should give more control.

If this was possible then you need to see somebody who specialises in Company law. 

In this country -that may indeed be  a lawyer

[Speedhump]

5 hours ago, Thomas J said:

I would agree with that. In USA you would need a signed agreement between the homeowner and community association. There would be a formal document of bylaws stating what both parties were responsible for. Also even with permission a person would not be allowed to live in areas not meeting code for living quarters

Yes, not relevant. So why are you droning on about US law, cluttering up the thread? ????

[bradiston]

4 hours ago, davidcraig said:

If you do get a lawyer. How will you make sure your lawyer is actually working for you? How will you know they haven't contacted your opponent and are taking money from them?

Just don't hire a Thai lawyer.

[Damrongsak]

Pick the lock on the toilet room and take a dump in there.  Don't flush.

[timendres]

On 1/13/2021 at 10:53 AM, Thomas J said:

2. The president has a friend who she installed as "security" for the community.  Several people have expressed displeasure with him and want him replaced.  She indicated that she can not replace him because we never established a job description and if he is terminated the community could be sued and liable for a large severance.  I find that hard to believe but does anyone know if there is such a "job guarantee" law here in Thailand.  In the USA you are unless under contract an "at will" employee that can be terminated without cause at will. 

 

When an employee is properly registered as an employee, they fall under Thai labor laws, and those can be quite surprising for a US citizen. For instance, once the employee has been employed for more than 3 months, they are entitled to a month's salary if they are let go. If they work for one year, they are entitled to three months. And after five years, they are entitled to an entire year's salary! I cannot remember the exact numbers, so please forgive me if I am not correct on the exact time frames and severance, but it does make it very expensive to let employees go. This is why employers often take measures to encourage employees to quit.

 

I believe this will only apply in cases where the employee has an employment contract, and is registered with social security. I could be wrong about that.

 

That said, a proper employee is typically hired under an employment contract, and this contract spells out the employee's job, responsibilities, time off, etc. This contract is often drafted in a way by the employer that makes it possible to fire employees that do not stick to the letter of that contract. But, this does require that the employer document the issues, as well as provide notices to the employee allowing them to correct the problems. In other words, if it can be quite involved.

 

If there was no contract, then it is likely the employee was never registered, and dismissing them would be straightforward. Even if they are contracted and registered, it may be worth the expense of dismissing them and paying the severance, since it is likely not a large amount.

 

For a US citizen, it is easiest to think of it as a "union job".

Edited January 14, 2021 by timendres

[scorecard]

18 hours ago, bradiston said:

On 1/13/2021 at 2:53 PM, Thomas J said:

Live inside a gated community.  Like most associations there is always a controversy over the collection of community fees and how they are spent. At present, the person charged with being president of the association is not a homeowner within the community but rather is paying the mortgage and living in the home that is in her aunts name.  As a result it is "said" she can not form a legal entity.  Is this true? 

 

1. There has been disagreement since this person collects the community fees only in cash and refuses to provide any accounting of how monies are spent.  There is no bank account in the name of the community and fees from certain properties that are bank owned are transmitted into the presidents personal account.  Is that legal

 

2. The president has a friend who she installed as "security" for the community.  Several people have expressed displeasure with him and want him replaced.  She indicated that she can not replace him because we never established a job description and if he is terminated the community could be sued and liable for a large severance.  I find that hard to believe but does anyone know if there is such a "job guarantee" law here in Thailand.  In the USA you are unless under contract an "at will" employee that can be terminated without cause at will. 

3.  The president unilaterally made the decision to allow this security guard to live inside the toilet room that services the common pool.  Aside from the fact that that eliminates any toilet facilities at the pool does anyone know if there are any laws that prohibit living in a toilet room.  Here again in the USA many have attempted to live inside sheds, storage lockers, windowless basements etc and they are not allowed since they do not meet the ordinances required to be allowed for living spaces.  If it is against the law, what agency in Thailand would enforce it?

 

Find a lawyer, one that will take a case against a Thai. Maybe hard to find, but an overseas law firm used to handling "farang affairs" would take this, I'm sure. Combine with other residents if possible. The whole thing sounds completely cockeyed.

Expand  

Unless you (or your Thai wife) owns property in this development your best plan is to move on / get away from this scenario.

 

The items you list re certainly not normal but getting them changed is probably not possible, there's too much 'cross-relationships' involved. Plus many of the Thai residents? owners? probably have a strong attitude of don't complain / don't start conflict.

 

We had serious issued in a condo we owned in Bkk. 99% Thai owners, most of them knew there were inappropriate things going on (for years) about money/no receipts/no accounting/no proper approvals for expenditure all handled by one owner. If there was any discussion very quickly there were comments like, 'but she's a good friend to the old lady who is her neighbor' and similar and subject dropped.

 

Plenty of other places to live. 

 

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, timendres said:

 

When an employee is properly registered as an employee, they fall under Thai labor laws, and those can be quite surprising for a US citizen. For instance, once the employee has been employed for more than 3 months, they are entitled to a month's salary if they are let go. If they work for one year, they are entitled to three months. And after five years, they are entitled to an entire year's salary! I cannot remember the exact numbers, so please forgive me if I am not correct on the exact time frames and severance, but it does make it very expensive to let employees go. This is why employers often take measures to encourage employees to quit.

 

I believe this will only apply in cases where the employee has an employment contract, and is registered with social security. I could be wrong about that.

 

That said, a proper employee is typically hired under an employment contract, and this contract spells out the employee's job, responsibilities, time off, etc. This contract is often drafted in a way by the employer that makes it possible to fire employees that do not stick to the letter of that contract. But, this does require that the employer document the issues, as well as provide notices to the employee allowing them to correct the problems. In other words, if it can be quite involved.

 

If there was no contract, then it is likely the employee was never registered, and dismissing them would be straightforward. Even if they are contracted and registered, it may be worth the expense of dismissing them and paying the severance, since it is likely not a large amount.

 

For a US citizen, it is easiest to think of it as a "union job".

This is Thailand....

[Thomas J]

7 hours ago, timendres said:

If there was no contract, then it is likely the employee was never registered, and dismissing them would be straightforward

There is no contract.  They were talking about giving him a "contract" with a job description and if he failed to perform his duties as prescribed then terminate him.  I doubt he is registered but don't know.  

I found out yesterday that the community has been violating Thai regulations.  The committee has operated for years without forming a legal entity and correctly electing a juristic person.  The Land Office verified that yesterday and called the "chairperson" of the community informing her that she was violating the law, chastised her for going for years without properly forming an entity and that she was to report immediately..  So with that, I suspect that the security person was not registered.  I is paid in cash which would make it hard to document that he is or was ever properly employed.   

[Thomas J]

21 hours ago, bradiston said:

I can't see you're going to get very far on your own. It'll more than likely be a huge amount of running around with massive language barrier problems, not to mention cultural. For me, a lawyer would be the only way forward.

Fortunately my girl friend who owns the home is Thai.  Meeting at the land office went far better than expected.  The person in charge was infuriated that there was no legal entity and that the person had been violating Thai regulations for years.  He said a community has only 6 months following the formation of a governing body to register that with the land office.  He personally called the "chairperson" and scolder her for breaking the law and told her she had to get in to correct it within the next 24 hours. 

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Fortunately my girl friend who owns the home is Thai.  Meeting at the land office went far better than expected.  The person in charge was infuriated that there was no legal entity and that the person had been violating Thai regulations for years.  He said a community has only 6 months following the formation of a governing body to register that with the land office.  He personally called the "chairperson" and scolder her for breaking the law and told her she had to get in to correct it within the next 24 hours. 

Brilliant! Great result and yah boo sucks to all those naysayers about TIT, forget it, move on, give up. There ARE decent people in authority in my experience, who will help you.

[phetphet]

Why not make a point of using the poolside toilet? You are paying for it in your services.

 

I don't know if this would work, but maybe you could get a lawyer to write that he is withholding payment for services (in escrow on your behalf) until a bank account is provided by the President, as you need proof of payment or receipts for tax purposes.

 

[Thomas J]

1 hour ago, phetphet said:

Why not make a point of using the poolside toilet? You are paying for it in your services.

 

I don't know if this would work, but maybe you could get a lawyer to write that he is withholding payment for services (in escrow on your behalf) until a bank account is provided by the President, as you need proof of payment or receipts for tax purposes.

 

There are several issues. The first and most important is that there is no legal entity and the person collecting the community monies is doing so only in cash and paying whatever expenses in cash. We can identify that she is taking in upwards of 50,O00 thb per month but only has two significant expenses amounting to only 19000 thb per month. She provides no written reports and of course with everything in cash no verifiable receipts

[phetphet]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

There are several issues. The first and most important is that there is no legal entity and the person collecting the community monies is doing so only in cash and paying whatever expenses in cash. We can identify that she is taking in upwards of 50,O00 thb per month but only has two significant expenses amounting to only 19000 thb per month. She provides no written reports and of course with everything in cash no verifiable receipts

Forgive me for not understanding this, but if there is no legal entity, what could happen if you withhold all payments? Pretty sure they are not allowed to cut off your electricity or water, and if there is no legal entity, who could  sue you for the money?

[Thomas J]

2 hours ago, phetphet said:

Forgive me for not understanding this, but if there is no legal entity, what could happen if you withhold all payments? Pretty sure they are not allowed to cut off your electricity or water, and if there is no legal entity, who could  sue you for the money?

This is a housing village not a condo development.  Everyone has their own billing for things like electric, water, etc.  The community fees are for common area maintenance and security.  There are small bills for electric, water, pool maintenance etc.  In terms of suing, it is my understanding that if one would sue, it would be the person who represented themselves as a juristic person and collected the money from the homeowners.  That was taking money on false pretenses that they were operating within the law.