Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[JonnyF]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Wanting to rejoin a union of 27 equal partner countries is narrow minded, xenophobic isolationism? 

 

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Equal partner countries?

 

Do you really believe that? ????

 

In the unlikely event that you were ever accepted into the EU, do you really believe that little old Scotland would have equal standing to France and Germany in the EU? Wow, you spend 4 years talking about Unicorns and then come out with that. Totally delusional.

 

Anyway, it looks like Sturgeon's days are numbered. Those dishonest, egotistical types always get found out in the end and her time is coming. 

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Equal partner countries?

 

Do you really believe that? ????

 

In the unlikely event that you were ever accepted into the EU, do you really believe that little old Scotland would have equal standing to France and Germany in the EU? Wow, you spend 4 years talking about Unicorns and then come out with that. Totally delusional.

 

Anyway, it looks like Sturgeon's days are numbered. Those dishonest, egotistical types always get found out in the end and her time is coming. 

Of course you don't understand the workings of the eu - you chose to swallow the lies told to you be the hedge fund owners and now look at the mess we are in. 

 

The EU offers a far higher degree of self determination than this joke of a United Kingdom does. As you may recall, Cameron didn't need to ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum. 

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course you don't understand the workings of the eu - you chose to swallow the lies told to you be the hedge fund owners and now look at the mess we are in. 

 

The EU offers a far higher degree of self determination than this joke of a United Kingdom does. As you may recall, Cameron didn't need to ask Brussels for permission to hold a referendum. 

 

Of course the UK didn't need to ask Brussels for permission. The UK is a nation state, a status that Europhiles like Verhofstadt only can only dream of for the EU. ????

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Of course the UK didn't need to ask Brussels for permission. The UK is a nation state, a status that Europhiles like Verhofstadt only can only dream of for the EU. ????

 

 

 

It doesn't alter the fact that an independent Scotland in the EU would have more control over its affairs than it does now in this failing union. 

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It doesn't alter the fact that an independent Scotland in the EU would have more control over its affairs than it does now in this failing union. 

No you wouldn't.

 

Let's ignore the fact you'd never be accepted into the EU and play fantasy politics for a moment.

 

You'd have permission to leave, but that's about it. Scottish MEP's wouldn't be able to propose new laws. Scottish voters wouldn't be able to elect EU commissioners (you know, the ones with the real power). Plus you'd be 1 in 28 instead of 1 in 4. Your financial contribution in terms of % would be even lower than it is in the UK. You'd be an irrelevant minnow doing as you are told by the unelected bureaucrats. You'd be far from Independent.

 

But hey, at least you wouldn't be ruled by Westminster (which let's face it is a euphemism for "The English") which is what this is all really about.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

No you wouldn't.

 

Let's ignore the fact you'd never be accepted into the EU and play fantasy politics for a moment.

 

You'd have permission to leave, but that's about it. Scottish MEP's wouldn't be able to propose new laws. Scottish voters wouldn't be able to elect EU commissioners (you know, the ones with the real power). Plus you'd be 1 in 28 instead of 1 in 4. Your financial contribution in terms of % would be even lower than it is in the UK. You'd be an irrelevant minnow doing as you are told by the unelected bureaucrats. You'd be far from Independent.

 

But hey, at least you wouldn't be ruled by Westminster (which let's face it is a euphemism for "The English") which is what this is all really about.

If we were 1 of 4 equal partners, we would not have had Brexit with a 50/50 split in wanting it. There is nothing equal in the UK. England gets what England wants, no matter how destructive of idiotic it may be. The other countries in the Union have no option but to be dragged along despite their objections. 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If we were 1 of 4 equal partners, we would not have had Brexit with a 50/50 split in wanting it. There is nothing equal in the UK. England gets what England wants, no matter how destructive of idiotic it may be. The other countries in the Union have no option but to be dragged along despite their objections. 

 

It was a UK wide vote. 

 

As you know perfectly well, the result wasn't 50/50 it was 52 to 48 (well, 51.9 to 48.1).

 

That's how democracy works. It sucks for the losers but that's why loser's consent is such a vital component of any mature Democracy.

 

In the unlikely event Scotland ever makes it's way back into the EU, do you think Brussels will give a moments though to what Scotland wants when making decisions? You think your GDP of 200 Billion will make you a major player in the EU with their combined GDP of 18 trillion? You'll be 0.011% of their economy ????. One of the smallest of 28 nations that had just signed any remaining assets it had over to the EU just to be allowed to join. An irrelevance. 

 

Still, at least you'll be free of Westminster i.e The English. Which is what this is really all about.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, JonnyF said:

 

It was a UK wide vote. 

 

As you know perfectly well, the result wasn't 50/50 it was 52 to 48 (well, 51.9 to 48.1).

 

That's how democracy works. It sucks for the losers but that's why loser's consent is such a vital component of any mature Democracy.

 

In the unlikely event Scotland ever makes it's way back into the EU, do you think Brussels will give a moments though to what Scotland wants when making decisions? You think your GDP of 200 Billion will make you a major player in the EU with their combined GDP of 18 trillion? You'll be 0.011% of their economy ????. One of the smallest of 28 nations that had just signed any remaining assets it had over to the EU just to be allowed to join. An irrelevance. 

 

Still, at least you'll be free of Westminster i.e The English. Which is what this is really all about.

No, you are talking about member States of a union. 2 states were for it, 2 were against. In this case, the wishes of England totally overruled the wishes of Scotland or Northern Ireland. Your attempt to paint the UK as a fairer union than the EU falls at the first hurdle, much in the same way the reality of brexit has. 

[Sujo]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

It was a UK wide vote. 

 

As you know perfectly well, the result wasn't 50/50 it was 52 to 48 (well, 51.9 to 48.1).

 

That's how democracy works. It sucks for the losers but that's why loser's consent is such a vital component of any mature Democracy.

 

In the unlikely event Scotland ever makes it's way back into the EU, do you think Brussels will give a moments though to what Scotland wants when making decisions? You think your GDP of 200 Billion will make you a major player in the EU with their combined GDP of 18 trillion? You'll be 0.011% of their economy ????. One of the smallest of 28 nations that had just signed any remaining assets it had over to the EU just to be allowed to join. An irrelevance. 

 

Still, at least you'll be free of Westminster i.e The English. Which is what this is really all about.

And scotland should decide what it wants, whether its the correct choice or not is not relevant.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No, you are talking about member States of a union. 2 states were for it, 2 were against. In this case, the wishes of England totally overruled the wishes of Scotland or Northern Ireland. Your attempt to paint the UK as a fairer union than the EU falls at the first hurdle, much in the same way the reality of brexit has. 

Scotland is a state now?  

 

The vote was UK wide. Always was. Very clear from the start. Your continued attempts to divide the UK up into 4 conflicted areas is hugely divisive and so typical of the extremist nationalists in the SNP. Sowing the seeds of division wherever you can, and you call the Tories the nasty party. Nothing is nastier than the destructive SNP.

 

Brexit seems to be doing fine. A few prawns delayed, some sandwiches confiscated. Teething problems. The biggest issue of the year by far is COVID and we're outperforming the EU on vaccine rollout so badly that they've resorted to trying to steal our orders from us and trying bullyboy tactics at the AstraZeneca factory. 

 

And this is the organization you hold in such high esteem. Still, when you're in the SNP I guess you can only look up.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-covid-vaccine-uk-supply-b1794306.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-covid-vaccine-uk-supply-b1794306.html

 

 

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Scotland is a state now?  

 

The vote was UK wide. Always was. Very clear from the start. Your continued attempts to divide the UK up into 4 conflicted areas is hugely divisive and so typical of the extremist nationalists in the SNP. Sowing the seeds of division wherever you can, and you call the Tories the nasty party. Nothing is nastier than the destructive SNP.

 

Brexit seems to be doing fine. A few prawns delayed, some sandwiches confiscated. Teething problems. The biggest issue of the year by far is COVID and we're outperforming the EU on vaccine rollout so badly that they've resorted to trying to steal our orders from us and trying bullyboy tactics at the AstraZeneca factory. 

 

And this is the organization you hold in such high esteem. Still, when you're in the SNP I guess you can only look up.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-covid-vaccine-uk-supply-b1794306.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-covid-vaccine-uk-supply-b1794306.html

 

 

Not me, but the whole of the UK understands its make up. Refuse to accept it but the clue is in the name. Otherwise, why do we have our own parliament, own legal system, own bank notes etc etc?

 

100,000 dead and rising? I think the UK has very little to boast about when it comes to covid. If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent, Johnson and his cabal will be rightly crucified just before his collar is felt on charges of corruption in public office. 

[NanLaew]

19 hours ago, sandyf said:

22 hours ago, NanLaew said:

WRT the debate at hand, Malta's GDP per capita is irrelevant

 

The relationship between the 2 countries GDP per capita was in my post, but you ignored that and went off at a tangent with some obscure reference to location.

Are  you trying to say that It would be irrelevant to EU membership should Scotland become independent.

 

Yes, I read it and I discounted the relevance of the comparison as you perceive it. I am not a Malta expert, the closest being working with some Maltese in the middle east but their location slap bang in the middle of the "middle sea", and thus having faster and easier access to the three markets I mentioned, has been a significant enabler in their great good fortune... in addition to probably getting all sorts of freebies from the EU. I can accept that you will also disagree with that.

 

"Location , location, location!..." As they say in Holyrood.... sorry Hollywood.

[NanLaew]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not me, but the whole of the UK understands its make up. Refuse to accept it but the clue is in the name. Otherwise, why do we have our own parliament, own legal system, own bank notes etc etc?

 

100,000 dead and rising? I think the UK has very little to boast about when it comes to covid. If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent, Johnson and his cabal will be rightly crucified just before his collar is felt on charges of corruption in public office. 

 

Or, he can take a leaf out of the SNP's book with their ducking and weaving on the ferry contract award malarkey and ignore the findings if they don't fit the Tory narrative.

 

PS: Just re-read your post and your "... If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent..."

[JonnyF]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not me, but the whole of the UK understands its make up. Refuse to accept it but the clue is in the name. Otherwise, why do we have our own parliament, own legal system, own bank notes etc etc?

 

100,000 dead and rising? I think the UK has very little to boast about when it comes to covid. If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent, Johnson and his cabal will be rightly crucified just before his collar is felt on charges of corruption in public office. 

Scotland is a country.

 

If you ever leave the UK and get accepted into the EU (highly unlikely) you can call yourself a member state. Until then, you are a one of four countries that make up the United Kingdom.

 

100,000 died with COVID, not from it. The numbers who died from it are likely much lower, early indications suggest that 2020 had around 40,000 extra deaths compared to the average from 2015 to 2019. However, the crisis isn't over yet, in fact it might not even be half time yet, to use a sporting analogy. Given the world leading rollout of the vaccine in the UK, we're likely to perform much better in the second half compared to many EU countries, unless of course they are successful in stealing our vaccine orders from us.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

30 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Or, he can take a leaf out of the SNP's book with their ducking and weaving on the ferry contract award malarkey and ignore the findings if they don't fit the Tory narrative.

 

PS: Just re-read your post and your "... If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent..."

 

He needs no lessons from anyone else about lying or deceit. His entire life has been one of moral and fiscal corruption so he is more than capable of holding his own in that regard, no matter how convenient a deflection it may be for you. 

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not me, but the whole of the UK understands its make up. Refuse to accept it but the clue is in the name. Otherwise, why do we have our own parliament, own legal system, own bank notes etc etc?

 

100,000 dead and rising? I think the UK has very little to boast about when it comes to covid. If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent, Johnson and his cabal will be rightly crucified just before his collar is felt on charges of corruption in public office. 

But your parliament is still Westminster whether you like or not, Holyrood is the admin side of Westminster, Westminster has given the SNP a building where N Sturgeon can make believe she is as important as Boris. She is basically in charge of making sure that the bins get emptied on time, and she cannot do that properly, she has dragged Scotland to its knees. 

Don't forget that Westminster gave you devolution and there is no reason why Westminster cannot take it away if NS carries on with her destructive antics, and if her criminal activities are proven there is no reason why Westminster would not do this.

[cleopatra2]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

No, you are talking about member States of a union. 2 states were for it, 2 were against. In this case, the wishes of England totally overruled the wishes of Scotland or Northern Ireland. Your attempt to paint the UK as a fairer union than the EU falls at the first hurdle, much in the same way the reality of brexit has. 

Actually if you include Gibraltar 3 states were against.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

There is no dispute that your comments have some validity but the root cause of this current situation is what needs to be addressed irrespective of how Westminster would be impacted.

 

 I agree. I'm not a supporter of referendums in general but, in this case, I cannot see any alternative to holding another . My hope is that it results in an overwhelmingly majority for one side. Another 52% - 48% split will cause the debate to rumble on.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

If David Cameron's referendum bill had treated the devolved nations with a bit more respect we wouldn't be in this situation.

He has a lot to answer for.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

The bill was passed by Westminster which as you are well aware has an overwhelming number of English MPs. 

 

This is one point where I fear we are never going to agree. The number of MPs by constituent country at Westminster is almost exactly proportional to the size of its' electorate. Approximately 83% of the UK population live in England and they are represented at Westminster by about 83% of the total number of MPs. It is inevitable - and imo fair and equitable - that MPs representing English constituencies dominate at Westminster.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

There is't another country in the world that holds referendums in the same manner as the UK. There has only ever been 3 national referendums and just because the first 2 were not contentious does not mean the format is right.

 

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

I seen an interview on BBC last night with an election analyst and she mentioned there had been talk of breaking up England into Scotland size chunks to create greater symmetry within the UK, effectively the United States of Britain. That would be one way of opening the door to a fairer referendum format.

 

From my perspective, whether such a move opened a door to a fairer referendum format is completely irrelevant. Imo any such move would be a disaster. Rather than lead to a US of GB/NI,  I believe that it would lead to the break-up of not just the UK but also England. The UK is already fractured; imo such a move will only make matters worse.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

At the end of the day the issue is not going to go away and something has to give.

 

We started with an agreement, so it's good to be able to finish with one.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

But your parliament is still Westminster whether you like or not, Holyrood is the admin side of Westminster, Westminster has given the SNP a building where N Sturgeon can make believe she is as important as Boris. She is basically in charge of making sure that the bins get emptied on time, and she cannot do that properly, she has dragged Scotland to its knees. 

Don't forget that Westminster gave you devolution and there is no reason why Westminster cannot take it away if NS carries on with her destructive antics, and if her criminal activities are proven there is no reason why Westminster would not do this.

Well said, Vogie. I am glad that you have backed up my point about the EU being a far more equitable union where individual members have an equal say. 

 

I am still waiting for you to explain why, if the SNP is as terrible as you say, they are expected to humiliate the unionist parties in the spring. I can only assume that the opposition are perceived as being worse? 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

Or, he can take a leaf out of the SNP's book with their ducking and weaving on the ferry contract award malarkey and ignore the findings if they don't fit the Tory narrative.

 

PS: Just re-read your post and your "... If the inevitable public inquiry is fair and transparent..."

 

He needs no lessons from anyone else about lying or deceit. His entire life has been one of moral and fiscal corruption so he is more than capable of holding his own in that regard, no matter how convenient a deflection it may be for you. 

 

It's strange that the tone of your posts make many here assume you're an SNP cheerleader while my comments make you think I am a Tory lickspittle when on both counts, nothing could be further from reality.

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, RayC said:

This is one point where I fear we are never going to agree. The number of MPs by constituent country at Westminster is almost exactly proportional to the size of its' electorate. Approximately 83% of the UK population live in England and they are represented at Westminster by about 83% of the total number of MPs. It is inevitable - and imo fair and equitable - that MPs representing English constituencies dominate at Westminster.

 

Forgive me for jumping in, but I need to agree with you here. It would be unconscionable for a county the size of Scotland to override the expressed desire of the people of England. That's why Sturgeon was wrong to try to overturn Brexit. It was not her fight to lead. 

 

Instead, she should have been trying to find a means that would have allowed both Scotland and England to have their desired results. 

 

And that's the fundamental problem which exists in the UK. No matter how often we are told that we are a homogenous people, the reality, as shown repeatedly in public perception studies, is that we mostly feel allied to our home countries before we do the UK. 

 

Federalism might be the answer on paper, but the trust in either main party to deliver it doesn't seem to be there. 

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Forgive me for jumping in, but I need to agree with you here. It would be unconscionable for a county the size of Scotland to override the expressed desire of the people of England. That's why Sturgeon was wrong to try to overturn Brexit. It was not her fight to lead. 

 

Instead, she should have been trying to find a means that would have allowed both Scotland and England to have their desired results. 

 

And that's the fundamental problem which exists in the UK. No matter how often we are told that we are a homogenous people, the reality, as shown repeatedly in public perception studies, is that we mostly feel allied to our home countries before we do the UK. 

 

Federalism might be the answer on paper, but the trust in either main party to deliver it doesn't seem to be there. 

 

And your solution to all this is to become one of 28 states in an increasingly federal EU?

 

This is my problem with the SNP. If they wanted to be Independent I'd respect that. But they don't. They just want to get away from Westminster (i.e. England) to be lorded over by the unelected commission in Brussels. Their claims to want independence are disingenuous at best. 

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

And your solution to all this is to become one of 28 states in an increasingly federal EU?

 

This is my problem with the SNP. If they wanted to be Independent I'd respect that. But they don't. They just want to get away from Westminster (i.e. England) to be lorded over by the unelected commission in Brussels. Their claims to want independence are disingenuous at best. 

Is that not a bit dictatorial, to impose your perception on an entire country? Whatever your feelings about the EU, they are irrelevant in the future of an independent Scotland. 

[JonnyF]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is that not a bit dictatorial, to impose your perception on an entire country? Whatever your feelings about the EU, they are irrelevant in the future of an independent Scotland. 

The SNP has stated that it is their desire to rejoin the EU. So I am not sure that my stating of such a fact is dictatorial.

 

My feelings about the EU are neither here nor there. What is relevant is that the SNP's claims to want Independence are not consistent with their stated desire to rejoin the EU. You can either be Independent or you can be in the EU. By definition, you cannot be both.

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by JonnyF

[RuamRudy]

Johnson, speaking on STV yesterday during his panic trip to Scotland, says 'you can't have a referendum without a clear constitutional picture in advance'. 

 

Is this an example of living and learning? 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The SNP has stated that it is their desire to rejoin the EU. So I am not sure that my stating of such a fact is dictatorial.

 

My feelings about the EU are neither here nor there. What is relevant is that the SNP's claims to want Independence are not consistent with their stated desire to rejoin the EU. You can either be Independent or you can be in the EU. By definition, you cannot be both.

 

 

Yes, they are your feelings. That is all they are. They do not trump the feelings of the vast majority of Scots who disagree with you. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by RuamRudy

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Yes, they are your feelings. That is all they are. They do not trump the feelings of the vast majority of Scots who disagree with you. 

 

They are not my feelings, they are facts about the SNP's position on joining the EU and definitions of the word Independent.

 

Are you saying the EU doesn't have rules that it's member states must follow?

 

Or are you saying that Scotland would refuse to follow these rules upon joining?

 

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

They are not my feelings, they are facts about the SNP's position on joining the EU and definitions of the word Independent.

 

Are you saying the EU doesn't have rules that it's member states must follow?

 

Or are you saying that Scotland would refuse to follow these rules upon joining?

 

What's with putting words in my mouth to try to shore up your non existent argument? 

 

The reality is that we, as a country, consider the EU a more appealing option than the UK. You may not understand that point, but you don't have to. Its irrelevant what you think. 

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The SNP has stated that it is their desire to rejoin the EU. So I am not sure that my stating of such a fact is dictatorial.

 

My feelings about the EU are neither here nor there. What is relevant is that the SNP's claims to want Independence are not consistent with their stated desire to rejoin the EU. You can either be Independent or you can be in the EU. By definition, you cannot be both.

 

 

my guess is that the vast majority of the current EU member states would consider themselves as independent

and sovereign

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What's with putting words in my mouth to try to shore up your non existent argument? 

 

The reality is that we, as a country, consider the EU a more appealing option than the UK. You may not understand that point, but you don't have to. Its irrelevant what you think. 

funny re spelling,

maany would consider EU as more appalling then the UK ..., hmm