Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, vogie said:

 

And why you are you trying to turn this into a pension thread?

Usual deflection, is the thread about Scottish Nationalists or not?

Do the Scottish Nationalists speak up on behalf of expats in Thailand or not?

Obviously something you cannot bring yourself to admit.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, Phulublub said:

I doubt that, but there would not be near as many in Scotland now coming round to agreeing with their stance.  The result of the EU referendum is the direct cause of so many altering their thoughts - me included.  I was an ardent advocate of Scotland staying in the Union. I am no longer so sure. 

I am much the same, as far as I am concerned the result in 2014 was the right one.

It wasn't so much being a unionist as Alex Salmond was not the right person to be the first President of Scotland. Many others were in the same boat, caught between a rock and a hard place with Westminster being the lesser of 2 evils.

Circumstances have changed, people have changed, it is time for Scotland to reconsider their position. If once again they are presented with a comprehensive white paper, the people of Scotland can decide for themselves how they wish to proceed.

It is certainly not in Scotland's interest for the major political party to be treated with contempt by the UK government and that must come to an end one way or another.

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Why dodge the question? Just answer it. Throughout this thread the Scottish nationalists' argument has been Brexit. So, if Brexit had not happened, the wish for an independent Scotland would have gone away,right?

 

I didn't dodge the question at all. My answer is clear. If the Brexit had not happened they the material change would not have been presented as a gift to the independence movement and, thus, the impetus would have quite possibly faded. 

 

That doesn't mean that the movement would have withered, but the reality is that Brexit is a very graphic example of how the wishes of the electorate in Scotland are ignored, and the anger this has generated has motivated more of the soft middle to take a determined strance. 

 

Of course there will always be those who feel independence is the only possible outcome no matter how successful the union is moving forward, just like there are those who will never stop backing the union no matter the height of iniquities the union imposes on Scotland, and no matter how many similar examples to the stupidity of Brexit they impose upon us against our will. 

 

[RuamRudy]

15 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Rather than the United Kingdom, why not form a looser but legally binding (for security purposes) alliance.  If a nation no longer wishes to be part of the UK, why force them to do so?

 

To prevent further friction though, I think an independence vote would need to be much greater than a simple majority.

 

However, there is substance in Boris Johnson's stance that the SNP can't just keep having more and more votes until they get their way.  Then again, there is also substance in the SNP's claim that Brexit fundamentally changed things.

 

Then Johnson needs to describe the process to self determination. Since 2014 the electorate has handed the SNP 8 or 9 mandates to seek another independence referendum.

 

How many times do we need to show him that we want to pursue a different, better way than the narrow minded insolationism of Brexit Britain? 

[vogie]

25 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Usual deflection, is the thread about Scottish Nationalists or not?

Do the Scottish Nationalists speak up on behalf of expats in Thailand or not?

Obviously something you cannot bring yourself to admit.

Well that was a twist of monumental magnitudes.????????????

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I agree and have never said other wise.

 

In case you missed it, Scotland did decide.

You would have to show us the clause in the referendum bill that states the interval before another referendum could be held.

Unlike the Belfast Agreement, which legislates 7 years between referendums on self determination, the Scottish referendum bill had no such clause.

Remind us, how long since the 2014 referendum.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You would have to show us the clause in the referendum bill that states the interval before another referendum could be held.

Unlike the Belfast Agreement, which legislates 7 years between referendums on self determination, the Scottish referendum bill had no such clause.

Remind us, how long since the 2014 referendum.

The life time of a Tasmanian Tiger?

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

I presume that if Scotland does go for "Independence", then Scotland will allow Islanders, such as the Shetlands to break away from Scotland, if they wish to.

Scotland was once a sovereign nation that joined a Union, so as per brexit should be able to take back control.

Not quite the same as other separatist claims.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

I presume that if Scotland does go for "Independence", then Scotland will allow Islanders, such as the Shetlands to break away from Scotland, if they wish to.

 

Why would the islanders want to? Where would they go? With international maritime law clearly defined, the islanders would have a very small patch of sea from which to build an economy. 

 

I presume that if such an occurrence was raised, all our brexiteer friends would ask which currency they would use. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sharksy said:

One reason the UK doesn't want an Independent Scotland might be, to save them from themselves.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/snp-must-rethink-its-economic-model-independent-scotland/

 

Very interesting, balanced read.

It looks interesting, thanks. I will read it in more detail later. 

 

For now I had a cursory skim through it and noted one thing - it is fixated on an SNP future. 

 

I remember a slogan from the snp many years ago: Vote for us and we'll resign. 

 

I would like, upon a successful outcome to indyref2, a coalition of parties working together to find the best means of extracting Scotland from the union at the least cost and the best outcome for both Scotland and rUK. 

 

After that, elections - let the people decide how to move forward. An snp future is not guaranteed, even if the party survives beyond the early days. 

 

We can change the entire UK political and economic trajectory on a general election. Why can Scotland not survive a similar, albeit more significant upheaval if we plan accordingly? 

[Nout]

It looks like Scotland is leaving the UK. So be it. All the more reason to plan effectively for an economically thriving Britain with International trade arrangements put in place. Plans must also be made to prevent Scottish politicians and Scottish politics influencing our great country.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, Nout said:

It looks like Scotland is leaving the UK. So be it. All the more reason to plan effectively for an economically thriving Britain with International trade arrangements put in place. Plans must also be made to prevent Scottish politicians and Scottish politics influencing our great country.

They have next to no influence now - I think that you can sleep easy knowing that that wont change. 

[youreavinalaff]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

You would have to show us the clause in the referendum bill that states the interval before another referendum could be held.

Unlike the Belfast Agreement, which legislates 7 years between referendums on self determination, the Scottish referendum bill had no such clause.

Remind us, how long since the 2014 referendum.

You could quite easily find out for your self. There are a plethora of speeches and quotes from Alex Salmond that give a rough guideline of how long a "lifetime" is.

[JonnyF]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

How many times do we need to show him that we want to pursue a different, better way than the narrow minded insolationism of Brexit Britain? 

Leave by all means, but please stop this nonsense about Brexit being an isolationist policy when it's clearly about opening up Britain to the world outside the EU while maintaining tariff free trade with the EU.

 

You will truly know the meaning of isolation in the years, possible decades between leaving the UK and potentially (but not necessarily) being allowed into the EU. 

 

A debt ridden nation of 5 million people with no trade deal with either the UK or the EU. No control of their own monetary policy. Little to offer the world. Cut off from their land neighbours and freezing alone up in the North Sea, dealing with huge drug and health issues while begging the failing EU to let them into their corrupt club. What a vision. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Leave by all means, but please stop this nonsense about Brexit being an isolationist policy when it's clearly about opening up Britain to the world outside the EU while maintaining tariff free trade with the EU.

 

You will truly know the meaning of isolation in the years, possible decades between leaving the UK and potentially (but not necessarily) being allowed into the EU. 

 

A debt ridden nation of 5 million people with no trade deal with either the UK or the EU. No control of their own monetary policy. Little to offer the world. Cut off from their land neighbours and freezing alone up in the North Sea, dealing with huge drug and health issues while begging the failing EU to let them into their corrupt club. What a vision. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

Yet the electorate still seems to want the EU over the UK. Could it be that we are just not nearly as educated a people as you so we don't have your mighty grasp on the actualite, or are you talking from a position of ignorance? 

 

Actually, if you think about it, let's say you are correct and Scotland is a basket case. Does it not sprak volumes about the UK that the majority of Scots are still willing to go it alone? 

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Actually, if you think about it, let's say you are correct and Scotland is a basket case. Does it not sprak volumes about the UK that the majority of Scots are still willing to go it alone? 

 

Honestly? I'd say it speaks volumes about many Scots intense dislike of The English, sorry I mean Westminster, and their gullibility in following a shyster like Sturgeon.

 

I really pity the Scottish Unionists who are going to watch their once proud nation disintegrate if the puppet master Sturgeon gets her way. I really do.

[Sujo]

33 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

You could quite easily find out for your self. There are a plethora of speeches and quotes from Alex Salmond that give a rough guideline of how long a "lifetime" is.

Not in the agreement.

[Sujo]

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Leave by all means, but please stop this nonsense about Brexit being an isolationist policy when it's clearly about opening up Britain to the world outside the EU while maintaining tariff free trade with the EU.

 

You will truly know the meaning of isolation in the years, possible decades between leaving the UK and potentially (but not necessarily) being allowed into the EU. 

 

A debt ridden nation of 5 million people with no trade deal with either the UK or the EU. No control of their own monetary policy. Little to offer the world. Cut off from their land neighbours and freezing alone up in the North Sea, dealing with huge drug and health issues while begging the failing EU to let them into their corrupt club. What a vision. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.

Which should be a decision for no one except the scots.

[Sujo]

17 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Honestly? I'd say it speaks volumes about many Scots intense dislike of The English, sorry I mean Westminster, and their gullibility in following a shyster like Sturgeon.

 

I really pity the Scottish Unionists who are going to watch their once proud nation disintegrate if the puppet master Sturgeon gets her way. I really do.

That sounds like remainer talk.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sujo

[robblok]

29 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Yet the electorate still seems to want the EU over the UK. Could it be that we are just not nearly as educated a people as you so we don't have your mighty grasp on the actualite, or are you talking from a position of ignorance? 

 

Actually, if you think about it, let's say you are correct and Scotland is a basket case. Does it not sprak volumes about the UK that the majority of Scots are still willing to go it alone? 

No its more basic then that IMO. The English have still idea's of grandeur and a longing for past time when the UK counted for something with a big empire. The Scots and Irish were never that proud of it actually being conquered too by the English in the past. So they don't suffer from the same problems.

 

The English were easily convinced by liar BJ and now project fear is project reality with all the things coming true. Empty shelves bad economy and so on and so on. Fishing sector that is suffering not flourishing (how ironic). The Scots and Irish were less convinced by BJ and his nationalistic talk. They were more realists while Brexiteers were more dreamers. 

That is my opinion not fact but that is the way i see it. 

[Sujo]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

No its more basic then that IMO. The English have still idea's of grandeur and a longing for past time when the UK counted for something with a big empire. The Scots and Irish were never that proud of it actually being conquered too by the English in the past. So they don't suffer from the same problems.

 

The English were easily convinced by liar BJ and now project fear is project reality with all the things coming true. Empty shelves bad economy and so on and so on. Fishing sector that is suffering not flourishing (how ironic). The Scots and Irish were less convinced by BJ and his nationalistic talk. They were more realists while Brexiteers were more dreamers. 

That is my opinion not fact but that is the way i see it. 

In my opinion your view is correct. Just add on the racists.

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

No its more basic then that IMO. The English have still idea's of grandeur and a longing for past time when the UK counted for something with a big empire. The Scots and Irish were never that proud of it actually being conquered too by the English in the past. So they don't suffer from the same problems.

 

The English were easily convinced by liar BJ and now project fear is project reality with all the things coming true. Empty shelves bad economy and so on and so on. Fishing sector that is suffering not flourishing (how ironic). The Scots and Irish were less convinced by BJ and his nationalistic talk. They were more realists while Brexiteers were more dreamers. 

That is my opinion not fact but that is the way i see it. 

 

wouldn't chracterise your first paragraph as spot on,

but I do think you point to some substance in it

 

[youreavinalaff]

22 minutes ago, robblok said:

No its more basic then that IMO. The English have still idea's of grandeur and a longing for past time when the UK counted for something with a big empire. The Scots and Irish were never that proud of it actually being conquered too by the English in the past. So they don't suffer from the same problems.

 

The English were easily convinced by liar BJ and now project fear is project reality with all the things coming true. Empty shelves bad economy and so on and so on. Fishing sector that is suffering not flourishing (how ironic). The Scots and Irish were less convinced by BJ and his nationalistic talk. They were more realists while Brexiteers were more dreamers. 

That is my opinion not fact but that is the way i see it. 

In order to come to some sort of opinion I hope you have researched your ideas first. I would imagine you would need to speak to many thousand English people to come to such an opinion. How many was it that you spoke to? You certainly did not speak to me or anyone that I know. If you had, you would have had a different opinion.

 

By the way, where are all these empty shelves? I certainly have not come across them.

 

I think you will find that suggesting that the economy and the fishing industry is not doing so well right now might have something to do with a little virus that is doing the rounds. You obviously have not heard about that. Probably because you seem to have your head in the sand.

 

 

[RayC]

39 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Which should be a decision for no one except the scots.

 

So referendums on Scottish independence should be held as often as Holyrood deems necessary without any input from Westminster? There should be no consideration of the effect that the process and (possible) divorce has on the rest of the UK? And what happens if unionists become the majority again in subsequent years? The UK simply welcomes back Scotland until it decides it wants to leave again?

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

Honestly? I'd say it speaks volumes about many Scots intense dislike of The English, sorry I mean Westminster, and their gullibility in following a shyster like Sturgeon.

 

I really pity the Scottish Unionists who are going to watch their once proud nation disintegrate if the puppet master Sturgeon gets her way. I really do.

 

So the best you can come up with is that we are anti english and gullible? How do you explain the many English people live in Scotland and support independence? They must be your gullible lot, yeah? If only we were as perspicacious a people as you. 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

So referendums on Scottish independence should be held as often as Holyrood deems necessary without any input from Westminster? There should be no consideration of the effect that the process and (possible) divorce has on the rest of the UK? And what happens if unionists become the majority again in subsequent years? The UK simply welcomes back Scotland until it decides it wants to leave again?

 

On your last point, if the 60 odd countries that have slipped the yoke of the empire, not a single one has looked back with regret. I very much doubt Scotland will buck that trend. 

 

As for the rest of it, the people of Scotland will decide what is best for them. It's as simple as that. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

On your last point, if the 60 odd countries that have slipped the yoke of the empire, not a single one has looked back with regret. I very much doubt Scotland will buck that trend. 

 

As for the rest of it, the people of Scotland will decide what is best for them. It's as simple as that. 

Your first para, how do you know...?

The UK was formed by a Scot King, did you forget....?

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Your first para, how do you know...?

The UK was formed by a Scot King, did you forget....?

 

The only thing I know about Queen Anne is that she was buried sitting upright. Oh, and she was a queen, not a king. And she was English, not Scottish. So I know 3 things about her. 

 

But regardless, what happened 300 years ago bears no relevance on today. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by RuamRudy

[youreavinalaff]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So the best you can come up with is that we are anti english and gullible? How do you explain the many English people live in Scotland and support independence? They must be your gullible lot, yeah? If only we were as perspicacious a people as you. 

Just a minute.

 

It was only a few posts back that you stated it was the non Scots (English) living in Scotland that caused the "NO" vote. 

 

Make your mind up.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Just a minute.

 

It was only a few posts back that you stated it was the non Scots (English) living in Scotland that caused the "NO" vote. 

 

Make your mind up.

 

7 years is a long time in politics.

 

That and the fact that the UK non Scottish people in Scotland didn't have a single block vote (I never said English). Check the data again and you will see, if memory serves me correctly, around 30% of people born elsewhere in the UK voted for independence.