Guatemalan forces clash with migrant caravan, Biden team seeks to halt exodus

[Jeffr2]

18 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/migrant-caravan-biden-pledge-suspend-deportations-100-days

 

Guess someone is giving these folks false hopes, wonder who?

 

Biden's going to be a great president. Trump was the king of false hopes.

[BananaBandit]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:49 AM, Poet said:

One of the nice things about forums is that they give people a chance to share well-considered, thought-out opinions, rather than simply increase their post count.

 

I want to boost my post count as well. 

 

I also think I deserve more "likes" than I typically receive. 

[Scott]

I worked in refugee services for many years and in 16 different countries.  My work included asylum seekers, and displaced people.   Three of those years were specifically screening accompanied minors and vulnerable persons.  

 

There is a lot of confusion about who and what is a refugee.  A refugee meets certain criteria set by law and international conventions.   Most any person entering the US and requesting asylum, must present themselves to Immigration officials within one year of entering the US.  There are exceptions, such as people who may have been trafficked and held captive beyond that 1 year limitation. 

 

Whether they will be granted asylum depends on the voracity of the case which meets the criteria.  The people involved in screening are generally pretty good at identifying the legal qualification and separating it from the sad, deplorable conditions from which they arrived.   Poverty is not a qualifying condition for refugee status.  

 

Obama was criticized for his handling of people crossing the border and he deported large numbers.  He did, however, follow the existing laws.  Trump, arguably, violated many of the regulations on dealing with those seeking asylum.  

 

Should there be large scale border crossings, I suspect they will get a screening and hearing and if they aren't genuine refugees, they will be deported.  

 

Hopefully, funding will be restored to assist with conditions that cause people to flee.  

 

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Biden's going to be a great president. Trump was the king of false hopes.

If he's only pretty good he will be super great compared to the worst president in history that he's replacing  

[ukrules]

Interesting timing.

[kingdong]

17 hours ago, Enzian said:

My question has to do with logic, a reductio ad absurdam if you will. We can agree that there are millions of people who "deserve" to escape the horrible conditions in their home countries, but no one talks much about rational limits. Are we to let half of Central America into the USA? Why not? They are suffering and they deserve it after all. But why just Central America? Just because they are relatively close? What sense does that make? I would guess that 20 million Burmese, 3 million Cambodians, 10 million Vietnamese, 50 million Filipinos, and many others, all "deserve" and would be happy to come to the USA. Why discriminate against them just because they are further away? We have airplanes. O course, there might be effects on the environment of the USA, but should we care?

Also, for example, under the present conditions half of Tunisia "deserves" to be in Italy. Of course, 15 % of Italians live in something close to dire poverty; but is that a reason to stop the boats? 

And all this assumes the poor are always worthy and deserving, that there are no bad actors. Hamlet observed that if we give every man what he "deserves", who would avoid being whipped? But I'll leave that aside.

it would appear a lot of the " let ,em all in " school of thought haven,t mastered the basics of simple arithmetic.

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, kingdong said:

it would appear a lot of the " let ,em all in " school of thought haven,t mastered the basics of simple arithmetic.

I missed that crowd, can you please provide a link, quote,  or any other material on that crowd that want to let them all in. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by sirineou

[kingdong]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

I missed that crowd, can you please provide a link, quote,  or any other material on that rownd that want to let them all in. 

Follow the incident on line,you,ll soon come across them.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, kingdong said:

Follow the incident on line,you,ll soon come across them.

No reason to waste my time, it is simply a strawman device set up by those without coherent arguments that are not tired of winning yet and need a win.  

[GrandPapillon]

On 1/17/2021 at 6:55 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Ah come on joe, let em all in. 

I think he might build and use Trump's wall after all ????

[kingdong]

15 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I missed that crowd, can you please provide a link, quote,  or any other material on that crowd that want to let them all in. 

Whar " crowd " are you referring to? I didn,t mention crowd.

[sirineou]

6 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Whar " crowd " are you referring to? I didn,t mention crowd.

you said "it would appear a lot of the " let ,em all in " school of thought haven,t mastered the basics of simple arithmetic."

To my limited Arithmetic abilities "a lot" would indicate,,,,well   a lot!

[Jingthing]

It's time to push back against any silly notion that Joe Biden is an open borders kind of guy. He served for eight years under Barack Obama who presided over a massive number of deportations. Expect differences of course  -- no more demagogue gimmicks like the wall that never happened and intentionally cruel separations of young children from parents. 

[Scott]

A trolling post and YouTube video removed.  It's a discussion forum.

 

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, kingdong said:

it would appear a lot of the " let ,em all in " school of thought haven,t mastered the basics of simple arithmetic.

Read Scott's post above.  Good education for you as you seem to have swallowed the right wing propaganda on this.  Few on the left want to "let'em all in".  All on the left want us to be compassionate and fix the problems leading to their need to migrate.  If you've ever traveled, you'd know that most of these poor people would rather be in their own country.  With their family, friends, etc.

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I think he might build and use Trump's wall after all ????

Yeah, it will be built around Mar-a Largo to keep the nutters from escaping.

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, Scott said:

I

 

 

There is a lot of confusion about who and what is a refugee.  A refugee meets certain criteria set by law and international conventions.   Most any person entering the US and requesting asylum, must present themselves to Immigration officials within one year of entering the US.  There are exceptions, such as people who may have been trafficked and held captive beyond that 1 year limitation. 

 

Whether they will be granted asylum depends on the voracity of the case which meets the criteria.  The people involved in screening are generally pretty good at identifying the legal qualification and separating it from the sad, deplorable conditions from which they arrived.   Poverty is not a qualifying condition for refugee status.  

 

 

 

 

Should there be large scale border crossings, I suspect they will get a screening and hearing and if they aren't genuine refugees, they will be deported.  

 

Hopefully, funding will be restored to assist with conditions that cause people to flee.  

 

What will these folks do until their hearing and why would they show up for the hearing and risk deportation knowing they are truly economic refugees. 

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

What will these folks do until their hearing and why would they show up for the hearing and risk deportation knowing they are truly economic refugees. 

One of the problems is the immigration laws.  They are arrested after entering the US, put in jail until they get a trial.  But trails take longer than they are legally able to keep them in jail.  So, they're let out and escape into our society.

 

The laws need to be changed and Biden looks set to do that.  Along with addressing the focal point of the problem.  The conditions inside these various countries.  It's not just Hondurans looking to get into the US.  Pretty much every country in CA has citizens trying to do this...and some from countries far away also.

[Scott]

52 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

What will these folks do until their hearing and why would they show up for the hearing and risk deportation knowing they are truly economic refugees. 

Generally, people crossing are held in detention for at least a brief time and during that they go through a pre-screening to determine if they have a claim.   If they have a credible claim, they will be released and given a date for a hearing.   Usually, they are granted release to family or to an NGO who will give them assistance.  

Historically, the no-show rate for Immigration hearings was 40%, but many of those no-shows were people who had a dubious claim at best.  

Not showing up for your hearing is a pretty good way to get a ticket back to your home country, unless you have a very, very good reason.  

 

[kingdong]

8 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Read Scott's post above.  Good education for you as you seem to have swallowed the right wing propaganda on this.  Few on the left want to "let'em all in".  All on the left want us to be compassionate and fix the problems leading to their need to migrate.  If you've ever traveled, you'd know that most of these poor people would rather be in their own country.  With their family, friends, etc.

Travelled,yeah all over the states and canada,and overland thru africa in the 70 s where i lived for a while,i did read scotts post and can ,having witnessed war feel very sorry for the civilians who get killed ,raped ,maimed and tortured in the process,when they couldn,t care less about independence and chimurenga and just want to be left alone.so lets ff 40 years where are we now?the western world simply cannot afford unlimited economic migration,we also have a points system in the uk which does not go on citizenship,consequently a newly arrived " asylum seeker" could go to the front of the social housing queue in front of someone whos been waiting 20 years,as its obvious,theres an almighty depression in the post and immigration must be logistically and financially budgeted for,i often wonder about what the reaction of  an asino do gooder would be should unlimited immigration  be allowed and everyones private pension was taxed by 50% to help pay for it.

[Jeffr2]

18 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Travelled,yeah all over the states and canada,and overland thru africa in the 70 s where i lived for a while,i did read scotts post and can ,having witnessed war feel very sorry for the civilians who get killed ,raped ,maimed and tortured in the process,when they couldn,t care less about independence and chimurenga and just want to be left alone.so lets ff 40 years where are we now?the western world simply cannot afford unlimited economic migration,we also have a points system in the uk which does not go on citizenship,consequently a newly arrived " asylum seeker" could go to the front of the social housing queue in front of someone whos been waiting 20 years,as its obvious,theres an almighty depression in the post and immigration must be logistically and financially budgeted for,i often wonder about what the reaction of  an asino do gooder would be should unlimited immigration  be allowed and everyones private pension was taxed by 50% to help pay for it.

Don't forget, America was made great due to immigrants.  It's been proven they are a value added to society if done properly. 

 

No easy answers here.

[kingdong]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

Don't forget, America was made great due to immigrants.  It's been proven they are a value added to society if done properly. 

 

No easy answers here.

Yeah america " was " made great due to immigrants,past tense and as for your statement,its been proven they are a value added to society "if " done properly, shouldn,t you substitute were for are? as we move into difficult times with unemployment already starting the western world must cut its coat according to its cloth.

[EVENKEEL]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Don't forget, America was made great due to immigrants.  It's been proven they are a value added to society if done properly. 

 

No easy answers here.

The days of needing unskilled immigrant workers in America has been over for a long time.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

The days of needing unskilled immigrant workers in America has been over for a long time.

Right.  I have seen long lines of white people standing outside farms waiting to get a job picking fruit and veggies.  Jeez....

 

Went into a hospital to see my father a few years ago.  Asked to see his nurse, who's name I couldn't remember.  I just said she was Asian.  The staff member at the front desk laughed and said "that's about all of them!".

[kingdong]

14 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Indigenous Americans aka Native Americans might have reason to disagree?

Are there many left?you don,t hear much about them.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Are there many left?you don,t hear much about them.

Only about 5MM left.  Most don't live on the res. 

[zaZa9]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

I missed that crowd, can you please provide a link, quote,  or any other material on that crowd that want to let them all in. 

 

Good job , IT IS TIME to start taking to detail , all the  false generalisers , all the sloganists , all those who would yell non-facts louder and see their  noise  as some sort of 'proof' that their inflammatory catch-cries have a  grain of truth. These liars are easily recognizable  by their words , "ALL you people ..." , "All those 'cheaters ' ! " etc ...

They are the CAPS LOCK brigade who need to understand theres  going to be a return to intelligent and sensible debate , whether they like it or not. And I urge all who wish to see a better world , to do as Sirineou  has , and interrupt the 'outraged generalizers ' and false prophets and demand details and  demand evidence . For far too long  now ,   noisy  soap box  fantasy  has been debated as if it is fact. 

Its become so prevalent that its even   lead to a percentage of the population incapable of seeing what is staring them directly  in the face!

 

Sorry ... the mad red hatted Tea Party is over !

Start sensible debate again , stop the name calling , and try to be believable ... if that doesnt suit you , then just go into exile with your roll model  ...555

 

( And I bet Sirineou wont get any  link either .)

[Scott]

52 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Travelled,yeah all over the states and canada,and overland thru africa in the 70 s where i lived for a while,i did read scotts post and can ,having witnessed war feel very sorry for the civilians who get killed ,raped ,maimed and tortured in the process,when they couldn,t care less about independence and chimurenga and just want to be left alone.so lets ff 40 years where are we now?the western world simply cannot afford unlimited economic migration,we also have a points system in the uk which does not go on citizenship,consequently a newly arrived " asylum seeker" could go to the front of the social housing queue in front of someone whos been waiting 20 years,as its obvious,theres an almighty depression in the post and immigration must be logistically and financially budgeted for,i often wonder about what the reaction of  an asino do gooder would be should unlimited immigration  be allowed and everyones private pension was taxed by 50% to help pay for it.

Historically, it has been the conservatives that have wanted larger numbers of immigrants.  They are a source of cheap, readily available labor.   When limits are set on the number of immigrants, it's usually businesses which want the numbers increased, but those are often for skilled people.  Silicon Valley, for example, requested the number of immigrants from India be increased.  

When economic times are less certain, immigrants are less welcome.  

I think, however, we digress on a number of issues.   First, people who enter illegally and do not present themselves with an asylum claim will face deportation.   From the Obama administration and certainly through the Trump administration, the attitude toward ILLEGAL immigrants has not been particularly warm.  I doubt that it is going to warm much under Biden, however, I expect he will not take action that are generally deemed as cruel.  

 

For those with a credible asylum claim, we can only hope that they will get a fair hearing and a speedy one.   Long waits cause problems, people get married, have children and then deportation becomes problematic.  

 

I have screened people who were wealthy and I have screened people who were poor.  Their financial status was not a factor; the voracity of their claim was.  

 

And just to be clear, the number of people screened in as refugees was relatively small.   The number denied claims was high.  

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.

 

[Scott]

On 1/17/2021 at 11:59 PM, EVENKEEL said:

I'm sure they've been groomed on what to say and expect from the generous gringos. Working won't be mandatory once they enter the system. 

You are now posting false information.   Do you really think that the people doing the screening don't know how to ascertain the credibility of a claim?   They do.   They know about specific conditions in the country of origin.  It takes about 15 minutes at most to screen a liar out.  

It's no more difficult than a police interrogation and the police can't pretty quickly figure out who's telling the truth and who isn't.  

 

In the US, at least, unless they are granted refugee status, they are not eligible for any gov't assistance programs.