Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked ?

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I know its a noble idea and hard to enforce.

...

But at what point is the cost of freedom too high. Should freedom of speech be the same as freedom to lie ?

In a 'restriction of speech' scenario (i.e. censorship) the question is also WHO decides what is a lie, and where to draw the line of what is considered a lie.

The idea that the 'majority' decides what is true and what is not, has a long history of being proven wrong, time and again.

And for every expert claiming X, there is another equally qualified one that states Y or Z.

The other side of the coin of not allowing the spread of what are considered 'lies' is denying people the opportunity to make up their own mind based on different points of view.  As the saying oes: Where everyone thinks the same, there is usually not much thinking going on...

So imo the noble idea would be to allow everybody to speak his mind without any restrictions and trusting the process that in the end sanity (but not always the truth) will prevail.

I am not afraid of people having different views and spreading them, but I am afraid of people that deny me the right to make up my own mind by deciding what I can read or say 'for my own good'.  

[Jeffr2]

48 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Heh, have you seen the vids? One lady trashes a mask display in a Target, ranting about how Covid is a hoax. Another guy shoves his way into a Walmart, through staff trying to deny him without a mask. Another of the many things shaming us in the eyes of the world.

 

Great example of covid deniers and ones helping with the spread of the virus.  Nutters, driven by political BS and misinformation on social media.

 

38 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Who. Cares. 

 

These straight loons dont influence "masses" thats just what you believe is happening. Most covid discussion revolves mostly around people, like you say, getting fed up with the situation itself, or politicians throwing their nuts into it and picking winners and losers. You seem to fixate on the loons, like somehow its all them that are making covid so bad. 

Right.  How many in the US don't wear a mask because of Trump's example?  Millions.  They believe politicians over medical experts.  Nutters all of them.

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Anyone who takes the time to fact check will know they are lies.  In many cases, this is an easy task. 

Don't agree.  When you do your own unbiased research fact-checking isn't always an easy task.  And it is definitely not same as googling Wikipedia or visiting 'fact-checking' sites, as they also have an agenda. 

[Mama Noodle]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

How many in the US don't wear a mask because of Trump's example?  Millions.  They believe politicians over medical experts.  Nutters all of them.

 

I wouldnt know how many "dont wear masks" but I would assume a vast majority do and you citing "millions" is just a guess. 

[mommysboy]

It's like some people think freedom of speech means you can say anything you like about anything, even if it's untrue or plainly misleading. 

 

I know laws already exist, but they are not easy to enact.

[Mama Noodle]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

It's like some people think freedom of speech means you can say anything you like about anything, even if it's untrue or plainly misleading. 

 

Thats exactly what freedom of speech means. 

[onebir]

Social media platform algorithms that push "fake news for views" seem to be a major aspect of the problem. I suspect it may only be resolved when the platforms are broken up & forced to inter-operate (& also doing away with their monopoly profits & disproportionate political influence).

 

But Biden seem unlikely to be Roosevelt to the modern robber barons. (Try saying that 10x, quickly).

[jvs]

25 minutes ago, Poet said:

 

To be fair, your angry response to his comment does seem to prove his point. I get the sense that you would find it hard to stop yourself punching him if he was within swinging distance.

 

Not angry at all,i have not hit anyone for a long time.

I was just proving a point that people only want to see their own side of the story but i see your point and maybe (probably)i am one of those also.

Where does that leave you?

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Don't agree.  When you do your own unbiased research fact-checking isn't always an easy task.  And it is definitely not same as googling Wikipedia or visiting 'fact-checking' sites, as they also have an agenda. 

It does take time, but it's not that hard.  First, stay away from the fringe websites and social media outlets.  Sadly, many who are CV19 deniers and anti-vaxx'ers only read these sites.  And get misinformation.

 

They've been programed to believe MSM is fake news.  Primarily by Trump and the right wing media outlets. This is absolutely not true.  Stick with The NY Times, WaPo, AP News, NPR, BBC, etc.  Avoid Fox, Breitbart, InfoWars, Epoch Times, etc.

 

What fact checking site has an agenda?

 

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Thats exactly what freedom of speech means. 

No it doesn't.  Spread slander and you're the target of a lawsuit, potentially.  Or here in Thailand, in jail if you spread misinformation about Covid on social media.  Congrats to Thailand for this.

[3 minus 2]

4 hours ago, Poet said:

As a Dutchman, the slippery slope you need to worry about when you start feeling the urge to control the speech of others is that you might wake up as a German.
 

And they currently DONT have free speech?

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I wouldnt know how many "dont wear masks" but I would assume a vast majority do and you citing "millions" is just a guess. 

Why is the virus spreading in the US?  Guess....

[3 minus 2]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

No it doesn't.  Spread slander and you're the target of a lawsuit, potentially.  Or here in Thailand, in jail if you spread misinformation about Covid on social media.  Congrats to Thailand for this.

Over covid, Thailand seem to have pretty much got the way they handle it about right...

[robblok]

28 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

In a 'restriction of speech' scenario (i.e. censorship) the question is also WHO decides what is a lie, and where to draw the line of what is considered a lie.

The idea that the 'majority' decides what is true and what is not, has a long history of being proven wrong, time and again.

And for every expert claiming X, there is another equally qualified one that states Y or Z.

The other side of the coin of not allowing the spread of what are considered 'lies' is denying people the opportunity to make up their own mind based on different points of view.  As the saying oes: Where everyone thinks the same, there is usually not much thinking going on...

So imo the noble idea would be to allow everybody to speak his mind without any restrictions and trusting the process that in the end sanity (but not always the truth) will prevail.

I am not afraid of people having different views and spreading them, but I am afraid of people that deny me the right to make up my own mind by deciding what I can read or say 'for my own good'.  

Problem is when fake news is used then your making your mind up based on fake news. You are quite sensible but not everyone is as bright you are. I get your point its a hard topic.

 

I would say a lie is saying nobody is in ICU care from covid and that doctors are getting 20k per patient. Those are lies and easily proven. Debating over the efficiency of a vaccine is different that is more grey. But absolute lies should not be tolerated.

[jvs]

8 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

Thats exactly what freedom of speech means. 

You are right about that!but that does not mean you can say anything you like.

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I wouldnt know how many "dont wear masks" but I would assume a vast majority do and you citing "millions" is just a guess. 

they're saying 80-90% do.  That leaves 10-20% who don't.  That would mean...wait...millions don't.  No guessing there...

 

https://healthpolicy.usc.edu/evidence-base/vast-majority-of-americans-support-wearing-masks-but-a-deeper-look-at-mask-wearing-behavior-reveals-troubling-lack-of-adherence-to-social-distancing-recommendations/

 

 

[Mama Noodle]

Just now, jvs said:

You are right about that!but that does not mean you can say anything you like.

 

Never said it was "limitless" but saying you cant "lie" or "mislead" is false. 

 

Its also could be considered a lie, and misleading, by the standards being thrown around in this very thread. 

[Meat Pie 47]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

Just if you spread lies like the one i mentioned. The kind that just can't be denied and do damage to everyone. Trump got a label for fake news. Maybe something like that.

Here you go

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/final-tally-of-lies-analysts-say-trump-told-30000-mistruths-%e2%80%93-thats-21-a-day-%e2%80%93-during-presidency/ar-BB1cWa5Q?ocid=mailsignout&li=AAgfLCP

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Never said it was "limitless" but saying you cant "lie" or "mislead" is false. 

 

Its also could be considered a lie, and misleading, by the standards being thrown around in this very thread. 

 

 

It could be called libel or slander.  Which is illegal.  Like the nutters saying the voting machines were counting wrong.  Many of them are now in lawsuits. 

 

Or, spread CV19 lies or misleading info, and here in Thailand, you could go to jail.

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

...

And the most fascinating stat of all, is Florida. The state is nearly completely open. Yet, the Covid rate is comparable to NY state, which is locked down. Southern California is nearly locked down, and the numbers are soaring. Figure that one out. At the risk of saying something totally not PC, I would say most of the narrative with regard to Covid, is either fake, incorrect, misleading or scientifically flawed. Hard to know exactly what is going on, but it does not appear to be as advertised. 

 

And here, in my opinion many more businesses were shut down, that were required to contain Covid. And the truly astonishing aspect of this, that few seem to be discussing, is that this could have been at least partly avoided, had Prayuth and Anutin, two stunningly incompetence men, taken action early, and decisively. Instead, the whole country is made to suffer the consequences of inaction, of not locking down ground zero, Samut Sakorn (just a relatively small section of the province, actually) the first day of the second outbreak. It is beyond comprehension. It should have been locked down like a maximum security penitentiary. Cordoned off. Nobody comes in or out. And can anyone guess why it wasn't? It is one of the largest seafood distribution centers in Thailand, and it would have meant the loss of a small fortune, for some. So, it came down to sacrificing a large fortune, and the nations economy, for a relatively small out of money, coming from those seafood sales. Nothing else makes sense. No other explanation means anything, or comes close to breaking down why this action as not decisively taken. Sure, the main market was closed. But, people were allowed to travel freely, and become super spreaders. Just incredibly dumb policy and a nearly unforgivable lack of action. 

Mixed feelings about this post.

Fully agree with your 1st paragraph, which concludes that the narrative with regard to Covid, is either fake, incorrect, misleading or scientifically flawed.

But then in your 2nd paragraph, you plead for a zero lock-down while the effectiveness of lock-downs is a prime example of what you wrote in the 1st one.

[Meat Pie 47]

57 minutes ago, jvs said:

I know of one loon that did influence masses,maybe you have heard of him?

you talking about this one?

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/final-tally-of-lies-analysts-say-trump-told-30000-mistruths-%e2%80%93-thats-21-a-day-%e2%80%93-during-presidency/ar-BB1cWa5Q?ocid=mailsignout&li=AAgfLCP

[spidermike007]

18 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Mixed feelings about this post.

Fully agree with your 1st paragraph, which concludes that the narrative with regard to Covid, is either fake, incorrect, misleading or scientifically flawed.

But then in your 2nd paragraph, you plead for a zero lock-down while the effectiveness of lock-downs is a prime example of what you wrote in the 1st one.

 

All I am saying is that most of the Covid facts and narratives do not seem to be accurate, and there are still alot about of aspects of this thing we don't seem to know much about. It is not as it appears. Lockdowns sometimes work, and sometimes do not. Why is Florida not locked down, and yet the cases are not spiking? Why are NY state and Southern California experiencing such alarming numbers, yet locked down? Why didn't they lock down Samut Sakorn immediately, after it was apparent it was the new "ground zero"? Far more questions, than answers. 

[wprime]

Censorship isn't the answer. The problem with censorship is that for every nutjob you censor, you have a snowflake demanding to censor something debatable or true.

 

The problem isn't even the people who spread this <deleted>, it's that we've created a society where people are great at finding information, but terrible at critically reasoning with it.

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

 

All I am saying is that most of the Covid facts and narratives do not seem to be accurate, and there are still alot about of aspects of this thing we don't seem to know much about. It is not as it appears. Lockdowns sometimes work, and sometimes do not. Why is Florida not locked down, and yet the cases are not spiking? Why are NY state and Southern California experiencing such alarming numbers, yet locked down? Why didn't they lock down Samut Sakorn immediately, after it was apparent it was the new "ground zero"? Far more questions, than answers. 

As you well know, they're still trying to understand this virus.  No easy answers other than try to do what the medical experts say.  Mask up, social distance, and wash your hands.

 

One of the biggest problems in the US is lies by politicians.  And the sidelining of medical experts for political gain.  They should all be fired.

 

[voulez vous]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

As you well know, they're still trying to understand this virus.  No easy answers other than try to do what the medical experts say.  Mask up, social distance, and wash your hands.

 

One of the biggest problems in the US is lies by politicians.  And the sidelining of medical experts for political gain.  They should all be fired.

 

They have not been able to isolate any corona virus. Yet there are innumerable vaccines that have been developed to give immunity. These vaccines are not vaccines at all.

 

In France, and Holland, and indeed Germany, the take up has been poor. Due mostly because their citizens have been better informed about C-19 and the vaccines.

[lanng khao]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

Oh god an other dinosaur. Probably from the UK and a friend of Transam ????

Only took you 12 posts in before you mentioned the mighty UK, obsessed with us arnt ya..

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, lanng khao said:

Only took you 12 posts in before you mentioned the mighty UK, obsessed with us arnt ya..

I did but did you see it mentioned anywhere else in this topic. Its just a fact that most of the guys that dislike Germans are from the UK. They also often bring up WW2. I really expected that the guy meant that but he actually had some good solid reasons and it was not a bash at the Germans.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

Mixed feelings about this post.

Fully agree with your 1st paragraph, which concludes that the narrative with regard to Covid, is either fake, incorrect, misleading or scientifically flawed.

But then in your 2nd paragraph, you plead for a zero lock-down while the effectiveness of lock-downs is a prime example of what you wrote in the 1st one.

I guess the difference is new york is cold people spend their time indoors where the virus spreads easily. Floriday is warm and most people are outdoors so it spread less. Just a logical guess. 

 

Also sunshine seems to kill it faster ect. So there are differences.

Edited January 21, 2021 by robblok

[Jeffr2]

this is scary:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jan/20/covid-vaccines-may-need-updating-to-protect-against-new-variant-study-suggests

 

Covid vaccines may need updating to protect against new variant, study suggests

 

Neutralising ability of antibodies typically falls eight-fold with South African variant

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Problem is when fake news is used then your making your mind up based on fake news.

...

I would say a lie is saying nobody is in ICU care from covid and that doctors are getting 20k per patient. Those are lies and easily proven. Debating over the efficiency of a vaccine is different that is more grey. But absolute lies should not be tolerated.

When all your information comes only from one source, chances are that your thinking will be heavily influenced by that one-sided intake.

This is true both for the 'fake news' adepts as well as for the mainstream followers.

Listening with an open mind to the arguments on both sides of the spectrum, and the ability to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' is essential in making up your own mind.

In that sense, censorship in whatever form is not only useless but actually counter-productive.

In the clash of ideas new insights are born.  But being confined to the bland stew of the common narrative group-think (from either side), will not provide much challenge to do your own thinking.

And so what if what later proves to have been fake news temporarily puts me on the wrong foot, such a faux pas will only strengthen my thinking in the long run, when keeping an open mind.

Note: Re your example of the easily verifiable non-truth.  If it is easily verifiable as being incorrect, why making the effort to protect people from it.  They will find out by themselves...

And in more complex matters, it is even more important that people have access to different views.  Yes, that makes it more challenging and less convenient for the 'authorities' to convince us to comply with the approach they have taken (reason why they like to crush deviations from the common narrative).

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Peter Denis