Can I buy a house in Thailand in my 12 year old child's name?

[bushman1666]

Hi

My soon to be Thai ex-wife and I have a daughter, born in Thailand she has both Thai and UK passports. I plan to retire to Thailand in a couple of years but being a farhang I can not buy land. My cunning plan will be to buy a house (NOT a condo) in my daughters name. She will be 12 or 13 by the time I am ready to retire. The property will of course eventually be hers anyway but I want to be sure her mother will never own it or control it. If anything were to happen to my daughter after I'm pushing up the daisies, I would rather the asset went to a charity. not her mother or that family.

 

Any help will be much appreciated

Edited February 14, 2021 by bushman1666

[scammed]

i think ive read exactly this, its not only possible but a very healthy idea

[MikeyIdea]

It's very legal for a Thai minor to own land. My half Thai daughter owns the land our house  in huaykwang in bangkok sits on. She was 2 years old and her western name (in Thai of course) is on the title deed and I had to put her fingerprint on the papers as a 2 year old can't sign, with my and the mother's signatures below. 

 

A few things to think about:

It's easy to give to children but difficult to take away again. You'll have to go to Juvenile court to sell, and they'll only allow if its good for and benefits the child, highly unlikely to happen even then. I wouldn't trust Juvenile court after you are dead though. Money for education is good for the child's future... 

The transaction cannot be done without all legal guardians signature (mother and father IF father has legitimized child or has married the mother). 

Age of majority is 20 in Thailand. 

There are lots of houses all over Thailand (read land) owned by half Thai's. I have heard that the land office(s) in hua hin and chiang Mai refuse to process for half Thai's though.

There seem the be a clash between the law which says that a Thai national is allowed to own land in Thailand and hua hin and chiang mai land offices hard-line stand that land cannot be controlled by a foreigner. 

 

Possible work around: I have never heard of anyone trying but I would suspect that this workaround would work: Mother and father goes to Juvenile court to get a court order on that they decide to give land to the child and it should be transferred within 45 days. Now, they can't transfer because the land office refuses, they or one of them rather, go back to court to enforce the court order, formality, the lawyer petinition the appeals court to have it enforced and it goes to the "gromm bangkapp kadii" department of court order enforcement and they will transfer. I doubt that the land office have the power to refuse them. Probably only works for land that the mother already owns. FYI its difficult to get court orders regarding flesh and blood enforced but generally no problems at all when it comes to assets, big difference there. 

 

You can't do much about what Juvenile court or your daughter do after you are dead. I have taught my daughter to ensure that the mother never gets control of my money if I die or a million baht per year will fly away while the mother "is being as careful as she can", probably true too". She will probably say that when guardian for her inherited money is chosen but it may not matter. Apart from that? Don't know, the mother will become sole legal guardian in Thailand after I'm dead so what can I do? (and also in my home country after a court case there but it probably won't matter). Transfer money to a western bank account and give her a debit card? I don't know how to fully protect the money after I'm dead if the child is still a minor 

Edited February 18, 2021 by MikeyIdea

[Andyfez]

Chidren can be easily persuaded to hand things over to their mothers by their families.......

[murraynz]

2 hours ago, Andyfez said:

Chidren can be easily persuaded to hand things over to their mothers by their families.......

Good point...what about having  a lawyer as trustee and acting on belhalf of child,until he/she is 21 yrs old.

[Nip]

2 hours ago, murraynz said:

Good point...what about having  a lawyer as trustee and acting on belhalf of child,until he/she is 21 yrs old.

I went through all of this year's ago and unlike all the other courts I found that the Juvenile Court must do what it deams is best for the child as it basically represents the child's interests. In my case the mother held no sway as far as the court was concerned. 

[khunPer]

On 2/14/2021 at 8:05 PM, bushman1666 said:

My cunning plan will be to buy a house (NOT a condo) in my daughters name. She will be 12 or 13 by the time I am ready to retire. The property will of course eventually be hers anyway but I want to be sure her mother will never own it or control it. If anything were to happen to my daughter after I'm pushing up the daisies, I would rather the asset went to a charity. not her mother or that family.

A minor can own property, but under guardianship. My daughter owns both land and shares in a company, but I'm not aware of, if a foreign father alone can be guardian; perhaps you need sole custody from a court order, you should check details with a lawyer.

 

It's always advised to make a last will, and if you have assets in both your home country and in Thailand, you should make two wills; one covering assets your home country, and follow your home country's laws; and another covering assets in Thailand, and following Thai law.

 

It might be wise to make a usufruct servitude, or a right of habitation servitude, on the property, giving you rights for life, or up to 30 years, to inhabit the house. Servitudes should be declared before a property is moved into a minor's name, as it might be impossible to register them when a minor owns the property. Some few land offices might not accept to issue usufruct to a foreigner, and as said above, also foreign guardianship might be difficult at some places.

 

If build a new house on the land, you can own the house, but not the land under the house. For that you will need a superfcies servitude that allows you to build a house on the land. All drawings, building permission, and construction contracts shall be in your name, as they are your proof of ownership.

[Bday Prang]

5 hours ago, murraynz said:

Good point...what about having  a lawyer as trustee and acting on belhalf of child,until he/she is 21 yrs old.

Bad Idea,  Thai  lawyers cannot be trusted 

[MikeyIdea]

I'll combine a couple of responses

I was interpretor in a number of Juvenile court cases in Thailand some 10 years ago and I always found Thai Juvenile courts to be good, better than many European Juvenile courts actually. It's the Thai lawyer representating foreigners who creates the bad reputation. I was shocked how they often didn't quite fight for the foreign parent while pretending to do so, talked to the other party when they shouldn't have, clearly not being partial. Not all but most.

 

Juvenile court in Petchabun has a bad reputation though. Best to refuse "kam yaam" mutual agreement and let them order and go on to the appeals court if the deal is not acceptable or the other part is expected to not follow the agreement. The appeals and the Supreme courts almost *never* take up mutual agreements!

 

As far as I know, a lawyer cannot be appointed guardian of a childs assets except by Juvenile court. We can always write whatever we want but the legal guardians (parent(s)) ultimately manage their assets until they reach majority. Also, each case in Juvenile court is acted upon based on what *currently* is best for the child, not something that was written 10 years ago

 

30 year leases: You cannot take away anything from a child legally, not even with a 30 year habituation lease. I tried at the land office in huaykwang and they refused. Clear answer: Need court order as owner is a minor. Per is right, lease must be on the title deed before it is transferred to the child. 

 

I have never heard of a 30 year lease to a foreigner being refused. Even Hua Hin allows it, a friend of mine living there has one. One funny true story from Pathum Thani Juvenile and Family court. A female court officer there told me about a case where a farang had bought land in the name of his girl friend and had a 30 year lease registered on the chanote. The old partner refused to move out when they separated and the foreigner took it to court. The woman never showed up and they eventually issued an arrest warrant. That got her out. I forgot to ask how long time it took but I'd expect that she was given several chances, each with 3-4 months in between.

 

Michael  

[the green light]

On 2/14/2021 at 2:05 PM, bushman1666 said:

Hi

My soon to be Thai ex-wife and I have a daughter, born in Thailand she has both Thai and UK passports. I plan to retire to Thailand in a couple of years but being a farhang I can not buy land. My cunning plan will be to buy a house (NOT a condo) in my daughters name. She will be 12 or 13 by the time I am ready to retire. The property will of course eventually be hers anyway but I want to be sure her mother will never own it or control it. If anything were to happen to my daughter after I'm pushing up the daisies, I would rather the asset went to a charity. not her mother or that family.

 

Any help will be much appreciated

she is under age. she cannot own land.

 

you can go to a lawyer and do a buy lease program with your name.

 

why would you use your daughter.. you never know if she can turn out like her mother.

 

 

 

[MikeyIdea]

3 hours ago, the green light said:

she is under age. she cannot own land.

 

you can go to a lawyer and do a buy lease program with your name.

 

why would you use your daughter.. you never know if she can turn out like her mother.

 

 

The bold part. That is simply not true. Both Per and I have already posted that we have title deeds for our houses (read land) where one of our underage half Thai children show as owners. There are lots of Thai and half foreign children all around Thailand owning land. 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by MikeyIdea

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 2/18/2021 at 9:38 PM, MikeyIdea said:

There are lots of houses all over Thailand (read land) owned by half Thai's. I have heard that the land office(s) in hua hin and chiang Mai refuse to process for half Thai's though.

There seem the be a clash between the law which says that a Thai national is allowed to own land in Thailand and hua hin and chiang mai land offices hard-line stand that land cannot be controlled by a foreigner. 

That's not true as far as Hua Hin goes, based on my experience. The chanote for the land/house where I'm sitting as I write this, is in the name of our dual national daughter.

 

Also, to reinforce another point which has already been made by others, our house chanote was registered to her name when she was still a minor.

 

Although things might have changed since, I'm not aware of any recent change and in fact we were intending to put another chanote in her name when she visited us just recently. Although in the end we didn't go ahead with it, as far as we knew (and my wife has a friend who works in the land office) there would have been no legal impediment to doing so.

Edited February 21, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[MikeyIdea]

54 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

That's not true as far as Hua Hin goes, based on my experience. The chanote for the land/house where I'm sitting as I write this, is in the name of our dual national daughter.

 

Also, to reinforce another point which has already been made by others, our house chanote was registered to her name when she was still a minor.

 

Although things might have changed since, I'm not aware of any recent change and in fact we were intending to put another chanote in her name when she visited us just recently. Although in the end we didn't go ahead with it, as far as we knew (and my wife has a friend who works in the land office) there would have been no legal impediment to doing so.

 

There is a large Swedish community in Hua Hin and some of them reported that the land office refused unless the mother had sole custody. This was some 10 years ago and could have changed. The case in Chiang Mai I know of well, the land office denied a Norwegian Thai family, unless the mother had sole custody, 6-7 years ago. 

 

Well, nothing is ever certain in Thailand ????  

 

"there would have been no legal impediment to doing so."

Yes, absolutely. 

 

Michael 

Edited February 21, 2021 by MikeyIdea

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

There is a large Swedish community in Hua Hin and some of them reported that the land office refused unless the mother had sole custody. This was some 10 years ago and could have changed. The case in Chiang Mai I know of well, the land office denied a Norwegian Thai family, unless the mother had sole custody, 6-7 years ago. 

It's usually a conspiracy between mom and the land office where this happens.

Children are clearly allowed to own land and property under Thai law, although the named adult appointed 'manager' must be by mutual consent of both parents.

 

I once was allowed to overhear a telephone conversation where two foreign grandparents wanted to put a house they were buying in their Thai grand-daughters name. They hired a Thai lawyer, who promptly phoned mom (Thai lady who let me listen in) and the lawyer said, "we can both make money from this". Thai lawyers are shockingly corrupt., and rarely work in the best interests of their foreign employers.

Edited February 21, 2021 by BritManToo

[baansgr]

You can put it in your daughter's name and live there but if her mother and her while family want to move in and make life difficult for you they can....nothing you can do about it as she is the girls Mother and has every right to be there

[stupidfarang]

Check with a lawyer first, a parent has control over a child until they are 20 years old and am sure even if you place the land and house in your childs name youre ex wife can take control as she is the parent. I highly recommend you check this out with a lawyer and remember you are not Thai so already at a disadvantage. Maybe better to buy in a company name and have it in your will to transfer ownership over to your child once you are deceased. Good luck

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, stupidfarang said:

and am sure even if you place the land and house in your childs name youre ex wife can take control as she is the parent.

Property manager is named on the chanote at time of transfer, and can only be re-assigned on the death of the named manager (which can be a foreigner).

It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters.

 

Maybe the moderators could step in and start banning people posting false information.

Edited February 21, 2021 by BritManToo

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 2/19/2021 at 3:19 PM, Andyfez said:

Chidren can be easily persuaded to hand things over to their mothers by their families.......

I guess it depends on your individual family situation but our daughter always lived with us the entire time she was growing up and I would say that I had (and still have) more influence over her than my wife and certainly more than my wife's family who she usually only had occasional contact with.

 

She's totally independent now, lives and works in the UK and has no particular interest in the house, or in coming to live in Thailand, as things currently stand

[the green light]

11 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

 

The bold part. That is simply not true. Both Per and I have already posted that we have title deeds for our houses (read land) where one of our underage half Thai children show as owners. There are lots of Thai and half foreign children all around Thailand owning land. 

 

that is not true.. you CANNOT have just your minor child name only as owner of land with nobody else.

you and your wife can have all your children name on the deed. that is ok

 

[MikeyIdea]

9 hours ago, the green light said:

that is not true.. you CANNOT have just your minor child name only as owner of land with nobody else.

you and your wife can have all your children name on the deed. that is ok

 

I am looking at my chanote and the original purchasing agreement right now. The columns on the land title deed are: date of transaction, last owner, new owner, land information and in the last column to the right, land office signature and stamp. The chanote (land title deed) has my daughters name only in the new owners column, nothing else. It clearly says dekying and then name. dekying is child.  

 The original purchasing agreement has, as I have already stated before, my daughters thumb print in the signature area with my signature below, then the mothers'. Both mine and the mothers' signature are actually below the signatures area as there is only one line.  

 

There's only one name on the title deed because a child can own land in its own name. A child cannot enter a legal agreement on its own though so the the guardians signatures are needed on the purchasing agreement. 

 

The mother has never been my wife by the way. The land office confirmed that the fathers signature can only be on the original purchasing agreement if he has legitimized the child and I had to show "bai rapp rong bott" certificate of fathership (as I never married the mother) before the signing could start

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

20 hours ago, BritManToo said:

It's usually a conspiracy between mom and the land office where this happens.

Children are clearly allowed to own land and property under Thai law, although the named adult appointed 'manager' must be by mutual consent of both parents.

 

I once was allowed to overhear a telephone conversation where two foreign grandparents wanted to put a house they were buying in their Thai grand-daughters name. They hired a Thai lawyer, who promptly phoned mom (Thai lady who let me listen in) and the lawyer said, "we can both make money from this". Thai lawyers are shockingly corrupt., and rarely work in the best interests of their foreign employers.

 

Land office: Agree on most cases, yes. The case in Chiang mai wasn't though. I'd put that down to the senior land office manager. The court order path should work.

 

Court: Yes again, many Thai lawyers are shockingly biased in foreign / Thai cases. It's a real eye opener for the foreigner who understands what they say and do. 

 

[Andy from Kent]

On 2/19/2021 at 5:54 PM, murraynz said:

Good point...what about having  a lawyer as trustee and acting on belhalf of child,until he/she is 21 yrs old.

 

Do you have faith in lawyers?

 

[MikeyIdea]

20 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Property manager is named on the chanote at time of transfer, and can only be re-assigned on the death of the named manager (which can be a foreigner).

It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters.

 

Maybe the moderators could step in and start banning people posting false information.

Please see chanote land title deed with names redacted attached. There is no property managers' name on it, front or back, only the childs name. Note dekying = child in column 4.

 

The purchasing agreement needs guardians name on it, not the title deed as the child is allowed to own land in its own name but not allowed to enter a legal agreement without guardians approval

Edited February 22, 2021 by MikeyIdea

[KhaoYai]

On 2/19/2021 at 2:44 PM, khunPer said:

Some few land offices might not accept to issue usufruct to a foreigner,

If you find one that refuses, see a lawyer. There is no law preventing a Usufruct Agreement being registered to a foreigner.

[ChipButty]

20 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Property manager is named on the chanote at time of transfer, and can only be re-assigned on the death of the named manager (which can be a foreigner).

It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters.

 

Maybe the moderators could step in and start banning people posting false information.

I agree with you, happens all the time the short answer is YES you can have it in your daughters 

[stupidfarang]

22 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Property manager is named on the chanote at time of transfer, and can only be re-assigned on the death of the named manager (which can be a foreigner).

It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters.

 

Maybe the moderators could step in and start banning people posting false information.

Maybe the moderator should ban people who are rude and disrespecful to other people on this site! As regards to information I gave Legally parents are given parental rights over the child. The child is subject to parental control of the parents until the child is legally determined to be an adult. Adulthood occurs when the child reaches the age of majority which is 20 years old in Thailand, The primary right of a parent is the right to determine the child’s place of residence and raise the child. In addition, parents have the right to manage the child’s property in a reasonable manner. This is Thai law!

 

I am only pointing this out as it could become a problem if you place land or house in a childs name then you divorce (assuming one is legally married in the first place).

 

As you have stated "'It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters'" so please get YOUR facts right before you comment.

[jaideedave]

On 2/19/2021 at 5:54 PM, murraynz said:

Good point...what about having  a lawyer as trustee and acting on belhalf of child,until he/she is 21 yrs old.

Blood is way thicker than water over here.I have a distinct feeling that a large part of my estate will be voluntarially given to my wifes elder sister.She has gotten herself in major debt to the banks. With a gov't job you can borrow untold millions which is what this lady did . 

The mother can put a lot of unsavoury ideas into an impressionable childs head.

IE: My parents divorded when I was young my mom began a long tired road telling me how bad my father was.How would I know?

[ChipButty]

3 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

Blood is way thicker than water over here.I have a distinct feeling that a large part of my estate will be voluntarially given to my wifes elder sister.She has gotten herself in major debt to the banks. With a gov't job you can borrow untold millions which is what this lady did . 

The mother can put a lot of unsavoury ideas into an impressionable childs head.

IE: My parents divorded when I was young my mom began a long tired road telling me how bad my father was.How would I know?

I'm told on good authority its pretty difficult to force the kid to sell the property it does have to go to court and the mother has to convince the courts why she needs to sell and is the sale to benefit the kid, 

[Neeranam]

On 2/19/2021 at 11:44 PM, Bday Prang said:

Bad Idea,  Thai  lawyers cannot be trusted 

Nonsense.

[Neeranam]

On 2/22/2021 at 10:14 AM, stupidfarang said:

Maybe the moderator should ban people who are rude and disrespecful to other people on this site! As regards to information I gave Legally parents are given parental rights over the child. The child is subject to parental control of the parents until the child is legally determined to be an adult. Adulthood occurs when the child reaches the age of majority which is 20 years old in Thailand, The primary right of a parent is the right to determine the child’s place of residence and raise the child. In addition, parents have the right to manage the child’s property in a reasonable manner. This is Thai law!

 

I am only pointing this out as it could become a problem if you place land or house in a childs name then you divorce (assuming one is legally married in the first place).

 

As you have stated "'It's really tiresome to read all the WRONG information put forward by ignorant posters'" so please get YOUR facts right before you comment.

Better we put our big boy pants on and have a healthy debate.