SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[7by7]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I would agree, but the 7 years is a minimum period, not maximum. 

Brexit was, of course, a significant event and means the UK Scotland voted to remain a part of in 2014 no longer exists.

Had Scottish voters been told that would happen, I wonder if the result would have been the same.

Expand  

Sorry. I don't understand the point which you are making?

When the last Scottish independence referendum was held in 2014 the UK Scotland voted to remain part of was a member of the EU.

In 2016 the UK voted narrowly to leave the EU. But Scotland voted by 62% to 38% to remain in the EU. The largest margin in any of the home nations.

We officially left the EU at midnight on 31/1/20.

So the UK which was an EU member, the UK Scotland voted to remain part of in 2014, ceased to exist at that time.

So I wonder what the result of the 2014 referendum would have been had Scottish voters known then what would happen just two years later.

Got it now?

 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

And I will repeat my previous post. It would seem the EU is a far more democratic union than the UK is given the UK needed no-one elses permission to hold a referendum.

The timing of another referendum is surely down to those who will vote in it. After all the EU did not stipulate when the UK could hold its one.

Brexit and the pandemic were not of Scotlands making. Indeed the mishandling of both can be laid squarely at the feet of the incompetent right wing English nationalist government in Westminster. 

Now given how the rest of the EU were allowed no say or vote in Brexit why should the rest of the UK have an input into Scottish independence? Brexit has and will continue to have an impact on other EU nations but thats somehow ok? It was a UK only matter? But Scottish independence is the business of everyone?

Pure hypocrisy.

We are going around in circles.

You refuse to accept that constitutionally there is no comparison between the respective positions of the UK vis-a-vis the EU in 2015, and Scotland vis-a-vis the UK currently.

It is clear that you feel that Scottish independence is the most pressing issue facing the UK.

I have no statistically valid survey to support me, but I would bet my bottom dollar that this view is not shared by the overwhelming majority of the UK electorate. Let's call it 'Tyranny of the minority'.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

<snip> It is undemocratic for the wishes of +/-2.5 million voters - rough, generous estimate of the likely number of SNP/ Scottish Green supporters - to be prioritized over those of the 47.6 million registered voters in the UK as a whole

Would you say the same if the people of Northern Ireland, where the electorate is approximately a third that of Scotland, voted to leave the UK and reunite with the Republic by a similar majority?

[7by7]

36 minutes ago, Sujo said:

<snip> even farage said if it was close it would be unfinished business.

Only when he thought he'd lost!

On the morning of 24th June that 'unfinished business' suddenly became 'a magnificent victory!'

[RayC]

41 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

When the last Scottish independence referendum was held in 2014 the UK Scotland voted to remain part of was a member of the EU.

In 2016 the UK voted narrowly to leave the EU. But Scotland voted by 62% to 38% to remain in the EU. The largest margin in any of the home nations.

We officially left the EU at midnight on 31/1/20.

So the UK which was an EU member, the UK Scotland voted to remain part of in 2014, ceased to exist at that time.

So I wonder what the result of the 2014 referendum would have been had Scottish voters known then what would happen just two years later.

Got it now?

 

And your point in addressing your speculation to me is ..?

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, RayC said:

And your point in addressing your speculation to me is ..?

It was in response to your saying 

8 hours ago, RayC said:

Imo seven years seems too short a period in the absence of any other significant event e.g. Brexit.

Read that original response again

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I would agree, but the 7 years is a minimum period, not maximum. 

Brexit was, of course, a significant event and means the UK Scotland voted to remain a part of in 2014 no longer exists.

Had Scottish voters been told that would happen, I wonder if the result would have been the same.

and maybe this time you'll see that I was actually agreeing with you!

[RayC]

37 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Would you say the same if the people of Northern Ireland, where the electorate is approximately a third that of Scotland, voted to leave the UK and reunite with the Republic by a similar majority?

If the electorates of NI and/or Scotland and/or Wales vote to leave the UK, then the result should be implemented. Clear enough.

My original comment was about the relative priority of holding a referendum on (Scottish) independence, so don't misrepresent what I state.

I take it you're ok with a minority of the UK electorate dictating the UK government's priorities.

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

If the electorates of NI and/or Scotland and/or Wales vote to leave the UK, then the result should be implemented. Clear enough.

Then we are agreed on that.

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

My original comment was about the relative priority of holding a referendum on (Scottish) independence, so don't misrepresent what I state.

If the Scottish people consider it to be a priority and indicate this with their votes in May, then in a democracy it should be a priority for their government; both at Holyrood and Westminster.

All non pandemic Government business in both places has not stopped.

16 minutes ago, RayC said:

I take it you're ok with a minority of the UK electorate dictating the UK government's priorities.

Well, only 43.6% of those who voted in 2019, which on a turnout of 67.3% is only 29.3% of the UK electorate, voted for this current government whose main priority, even since the pandemic began, is Brexit at all costs!

Are you OK with that?

[Rookiescot]

7 hours ago, RayC said:

We are going around in circles.

You refuse to accept that constitutionally there is no comparison between the respective positions of the UK vis-a-vis the EU in 2015, and Scotland vis-a-vis the UK currently.

It is clear that you feel that Scottish independence is the most pressing issue facing the UK.

I have no statistically valid survey to support me, but I would bet my bottom dollar that this view is not shared by the overwhelming majority of the UK electorate. Let's call it 'Tyranny of the minority'.

 

Yes we are going round in circles. You keep claiming there is no comparison between the two referendums. Plainly that is wrong in my opinion.

What matters to the overwhelming majority of the UK electorate is another good example of this. Was Brexit a priority for the majority of EU citizens? I would wager it was not but the UK held a referendum anyway.

[JonnyF]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Because of Brexit, the UK Scotland voted to remain a part of in 2014 no longer exists. 

If that poll is an accurate expression of the opinion of the majority of Scotland's population, then you have nothing to fear from IndyRef 2.

So let's have it and get the issue done and dusted.

However, as I said to @vogie on Sunday: as I always say, the only poll which counts is the one at the ballot box.

If the parties supporting independence win a majority in the forthcoming election, will you finally agree that the Scottish people deserve another chance to decide whether or not to remain a part of the UK?

Vogie has so far declined to answer; will you do so?

If the SNP make it clear in their manifesto that a vote for them means support for Indyref2 and over 50% of voters vote for the SNP then I would say that is a mandate for a second referendum.

However, I do not believe it should be held until we have had enough to get some clear indications regarding the impact of Brexit and Covid19.

The way the EU is going with Covid,  there are likely to be long terms impacts for them. Similarly, once the teething issues have been resolved Brexit Britain will go from strength to strength. Sturgeon trying to rush the vote through now indicates to me that she knows this. It would not be reasonable to expect people to vote when 2 such significant issues are so unclear and unresolved. 

[Rookiescot]

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

If the SNP make it clear in their manifesto that a vote for them means support for Indyref2 and over 50% of voters vote for the SNP then I would say that is a mandate for a second referendum.

However, I do not believe it should be held until we have had enough to get some clear indications regarding the impact of Brexit and Covid19.

The way the EU is going with Covid,  there are likely to be long terms impacts for them. Similarly, once the teething issues have been resolved Brexit Britain will go from strength to strength. Sturgeon trying to rush the vote through now indicates to me that she knows this. It would not be reasonable to expect people to vote when 2 such significant issues are so unclear and unresolved. 

How about we just put it on the ballot paper?

Scottish election: SNP apply to get indyref2 on the ballot paper | The National

[JonnyF]

55 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

How about we just put it on the ballot paper?

Scottish election: SNP apply to get indyref2 on the ballot paper | The National

Seems like a sly way to turn this vote into indyref2. Still, you have to expect dirty tricks when the scottish nasty party are involved.

[Surelynot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

However, I do not believe it should be held until we have had enough to get some clear indications regarding the impact of Brexit

I think I would have to agree........... probably a good idea.

"The UK government failed to carry out an economic impact assessment of Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal, two key government departments told the shadow international trade secretary they had no such document".

[Surelynot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

However, I do not believe it should be held until we have had enough to get some clear indications regarding the impact of Brexit

Davis added no assessment of the Brexit options will be carried out, saying: “You don’t need a piece of paper with numbers on it to have an economic assessment.”

 

555

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Seems like a sly way to turn this vote into indyref2. Still, you have to expect dirty tricks when the scottish nasty party are involved.

Aye it would seem the SNP have been a little late with this.

The torys have already asked for phrases like "End division" and "No referendum".

Still, you have to expect dirty tricks when the British nasty party are involved.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

If the SNP make it clear in their manifesto that a vote for them means support for Indyref2 and over 50% of voters vote for the SNP then I would say that is a mandate for a second referendum.

However, I do not believe it should be held until we have had enough to get some clear indications regarding the impact of Brexit and Covid19.

The way the EU is going with Covid,  there are likely to be long terms impacts for them. Similarly, once the teething issues have been resolved Brexit Britain will go from strength to strength. Sturgeon trying to rush the vote through now indicates to me that she knows this. It would not be reasonable to expect people to vote when 2 such significant issues are so unclear and unresolved. 

When is long enough to assess whether there are actually any tangible upsides to Brexit? We have seen precious few so far, and even the Nasty Party admit that the benefits are not for the likes of us.

Young people aren't 'reaping the benefits' of Brexit, admits Tory MP

 

A Conservative MP has warned people under 30 they will not “reap the benefits” of Brexit.

"...am I going to sit here and say Brexit is perfect, and that your generation is going to reap the benefits?

“No, I’m not, because you’re not, frankly, at the minute. And I can see that we’ve got work to do.”

When pressed how long it will be before people “reap the benefits”, Bowie refused to offer a time frame.

[Neeranam]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:41 AM, vogie said:

What have you got against English that doesn't go back 250 years?

I dislike being called a sweaty sock and I can't stand the typical English man like will carling. I also hate that song about chariots and Mr kiplings cakes. Actually, quite a few other things. 

[Surelynot]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When is long enough to assess whether there are actually any tangible upsides to Brexit? We have seen precious few so far, and even the Nasty Party admit that the benefits are not for the likes of us.

Young people aren't 'reaping the benefits' of Brexit, admits Tory MP

 

A Conservative MP has warned people under 30 they will not “reap the benefits” of Brexit.

"...am I going to sit here and say Brexit is perfect, and that your generation is going to reap the benefits?

“No, I’m not, because you’re not, frankly, at the minute. And I can see that we’ve got work to do.”

When pressed how long it will be before people “reap the benefits”, Bowie refused to offer a time frame.

In only 10 years there will be 'some' benefits.......won't there........‼️

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I dislike being called a sweaty sock and I can't stand the typical English man like will carling. I also hate that song about chariots and Mr kiplings cakes. Actually, quite a few other things. 

Best post I've read for ages......555

....even though I am English through and through........Cherry Bakewell tarts are nice.....you should try those......bit annoying that the cherry is never in the middle though.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Surelynot

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When is long enough to assess whether there are actually any tangible upsides to Brexit? We have seen precious few so far, and even the Nasty Party admit that the benefits are not for the likes of us.

Young people aren't 'reaping the benefits' of Brexit, admits Tory MP

 

A Conservative MP has warned people under 30 they will not “reap the benefits” of Brexit.

"...am I going to sit here and say Brexit is perfect, and that your generation is going to reap the benefits?

“No, I’m not, because you’re not, frankly, at the minute. And I can see that we’ve got work to do.”

When pressed how long it will be before people “reap the benefits”, Bowie refused to offer a time frame.

5 years would be enough.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I dislike being called a sweaty sock and I can't stand the typical English man like will carling. I also hate that song about chariots and Mr kiplings cakes. Actually, quite a few other things. 

I am sure that there is a touch of jest in your post, but I have many English friends and few possess the hubris of Carling. In fact, they are normal, down to earth and genuine. I suspect, however, that in terms of media success and national media endorsement, hubris and unbearable self confidence are assets - so naturally, the majority of media personalities will have the same annoying persona. I don't believe it is because they are English, it is merely that they are naturally annoying gits. We have the same in Scotland. 

[JonnyF]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I dislike being called a sweaty sock and I can't stand the typical English man like will carling. I also hate that song about chariots and Mr kiplings cakes. Actually, quite a few other things. 

555 great post. I love the honesty.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

5 years would be enough.

Sorry - I have no desire to hang around to continue to suffer the negative effects of the decisions of another country, just on the off chance that the red faced angry white men and hedge fund crooks who facilitated that decision were right and that the vast majority of economics experts were wrong. 

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 I don't believe it is because they are English, it is merely that they are naturally annoying gits. We have the same in Scotland. 

Point him toward Andrew Neil perhaps?

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Sorry - I have no desire to hang around to continue to suffer the negative effects of the decisions of another country, just on the off chance that the red faced angry white men and hedge fund crooks who facilitated that decision were right and that the vast majority of economics experts were wrong. 

Looks like you're SOL then, doesn't it?

Let's face it, if Brexit proved to be an undisputed massive success you'd still claim it was a disaster and want to leave. Brexit is just a convenient excuse to try again.

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

555 great post. I love the honesty.

I forgot, perhaps due to some kind of coping mechanism, Phil Collins.

Also that guy in Outlander who also played Prince Philip in The Crown.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Neeranam

[Surelynot]

....and people are surprised we are worried that Johnson is our leader....... 

.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-boris-johnson-ignore-pandemic-b1817719.html

Downing Street has failed to deny explosive claims that Boris Johnson privately said the UK should “ignore” the spread of Covid-19 when the virus first emerged a year ago.“The general view was it is just hysteria. It was just like a flu,” a source told the BBC’s political editor Laura Kuenssberg, saying there was a “lack of concern and energy”

The prime minister was even heard to say of coronavirus: “The best thing would be to ignore it,”

Notoriously, in February last year, Mr Johnson skipped multiple meetings of the Cobr emergency committee as he relaxed for 12 days with his fiancé at the grace-and-favour country home of Chevening.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Looks like you're SOL then, doesn't it?

Let's face it, if Brexit proved to be an undisputed massive success you'd still claim it was a disaster and want to leave. Brexit is just a convenient excuse to try again.

For me, you are correct - I have always recognised that Scotland receives a poor deal in the UK. For others, however, Brexit has woken them up to the lack of fairness within the union, and how Scottish opinions mean nothing at all. Whether Brexit confounds the world and is actually not the unmitigated disaster predicted then and is still predicted now, the fundamental problem remains unresolved  - that is how Scotland must fall in line with whatever the English electorate decides.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

For me, you are correct - I have always recognised that Scotland receives a poor deal in the UK. For others, however, Brexit has woken them up to the lack of fairness within the union, and how Scottish opinions mean nothing at all. Whether Brexit confounds the world and is actually not the unmitigated disaster predicted then and is still predicted now, the fundamental problem remains unresolved  - that is how Scotland must fall in line with whatever the English electorate decides.

Agree.....there is no UK....there is England with annoying bits added on that have to be tolerated (not a quote from Johnston.....just to avoid any confusion)

[Surelynot]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I forgot, perhaps due to some kind of coping mechanism, Phil Collins.

Also that guy in Outlander who also played Prince Philip in The Crown.

The list is growing!!!!