SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[RuamRudy]

49 minutes ago, vogie said:

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

I don't care who it is, Scottish MP, UK Mp, fishmonger, door to door salesperson, footballer or even a clown with dodgy doors on his car, they themselves should go to prison for a crime of false imprisonment.

Can we have that one more time, but without the equivocation? 

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

How do you know Sturgeon or anyone from the SNP tried to get an innocent man jailed?

Is there any question in your mind that someone is lying here and someone is suffering from acute amnesia, why are the Scots Nats putting up with all this scandal, corruption and lying.

Yet another person has been charged with being naughty, a former senior advisor to Angus Robertson, it's almost getting a daily occurence, tell you what if you can get some tickets for the next SNP Christmas Office Party I'll be up for that, they sound a real hoot.

[7by7]

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It would have to  break a lot of its membership rules to allow scotland to join

No.

Scotland, like all applicants, would have to meet those requirements.

As far as I can see, Scotland already meets them. Maybe you can say which ones they don't?

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It would also cause issues with Spain and the Catalan separation issues.

Despite some commentators saying this, the Spanish government has consistently denied that it will veto an application by an independent Scotland. 

Spain: We will not block independent Scotland’s EU membership

Busted: 'But Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU!' 

OK, they are from June and August 2019; but can you find anything since from the Spanish government to contradict them?

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Why would the EU do that for another net recipient?

It would have to do neither!

[7by7]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

all those billions you paid for your useless covid phone app and your corrupt PPE contracts, we won't be paying a brass farthing towards those. 

 

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You won't be in a position to choose which parts you want and which parts you don't.

The UK response to the pandemic is the responsibility of each constituent nation's health department. As the failings RuamRudy has mentioned, and others, apply in England only, why should Scotland have to pay towards them?

Though doubtless, until and unless independence, the Scots, along with the Northern Irish and Welsh, will find their taxes will be doing so!

[7by7]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

I think you are under-rating what is being said here RR, we are talking about an innocent man being sent to prison, this should bring down the SNP never mind Sturgeon and her inner sanctum. You seem to be blowing a bit hot and cold about Sturgeon at the moment, this is a hot potato RR.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Salmond case; whatever part Sturgeon played in it: it does not stop the democratic right of the Scottish people seeking independence if they so wish.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Is there any question in your mind that someone is lying here and someone is suffering from acute amnesia, why are the Scots Nats putting up with all this scandal, corruption and lying.

Yet another person has been charged with being naughty, a former senior advisor to Angus Robertson, it's almost getting a daily occurence, tell you what if you can get some tickets for the next SNP Christmas Office Party I'll be up for that, they sound a real hoot.

They are politicians Vogie. They all lie. But as Carmicheal proved. They are not real lies they are political lies.

Alistair Carmichael - Wikipedia

At the time of the leak, Carmichael denied all knowledge of the leaking of the memo in a television interview with Channel 4 News.[17] After the election, Carmichael accepted the contents of the memo were incorrect, and admitted that he had lied, and that he had authorised the leaking of the inaccurate memo to the media. This was after a Cabinet Office enquiry identified Carmichael's role in the leak. The enquiry found phone records that proved Euan Roddin, Carmichael's Special Adviser, contacted the Telegraph on 1 April, two days before the story appeared.[18] Carmichael apologised and accepted that had he still been a government minister, this was a matter that would have "required [his] resignation"

After the election? If he had been a proven liar before the election would he have won?

And lets look at Tony Blair and his dodgy dossier. That got thousands of people killed.

Tony Blair - Wikipedia

In July 2017, former Iraqi general Abdulwaheed al-Rabbat launched a private war crimes prosecution, in the High Court in London, asking for Tony Blair, former foreign secretary Jack Straw and former attorney general Lord Goldsmith to be prosecuted for "the crime of aggression" for their role in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The High Court ruled that, although the crime of aggression was recognised in international law, it was not an offence under UK law, and, therefore, the prosecution could not proceed.

Sweep sweep under the carpet eh?

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

22 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I'm talking realistic estimates here based on uk current debt which has skyrocketed with covid. It's still rising and will continue to do so until you (might) leave in a few years time so the sky is the limit and it's impossible to put a number on it  but I've seen  no estimates that put you anywhere near the rules.

Follow all that with 10 years of isolationism.

What estimates have you seen that put you anywhere near the EU criteria?

Last time I raised it with rookie he claimed scotland would just walk away from their share. Are you proposing the same?

You think the EU will inflame the catalan issue to accommodate you? No chance. Dreaming.

Debt issued is a contract between the UK [the issuer] and the lender who bought the debt.   For Scotland to take on the debt, you would need Scotland to agree to issue replacement debt, the lender to agree to terminate the contract on the original debt before expiry date, then buy the replacement debt etc.

The easiest solution is to agree to a withdrawal agreement to a payment schedule that Scotland would send to the UK to service the debt til expiry etc. 

Scotland seems a wee bit less isolationist than the UK these days. 

Read the criteria for EU admittance (not Euro) and you tell us what criteria Scotland does not meet. 

How many countries have separated from Unions that are part of the EU while Spain was a member (or countries that literally fractured)??  More than a handful....   Scotland and England are not comparable (Spain will tell you that) -- and is an internal matter.  Assuming that the first item is done and dusted (UK has agreed on a withdrawal agreement), Spain will not have any issues. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[RuamRudy]

Gorgeous there, showing us that he's dropped all pretence of internationalism and fully embraced the ultra right wing racism of Brexit Britain. 

As always, the britnats, with nothing positive to offer, fall back on their bigotry and their blood and soil nationalism. 

 

[RuamRudy]

Oh, look at that. David Davis is a liar? Who would ever have suspected that? I mean it's not as if tories are notorious liars...

I guess that was the reason why he said it in parliament - he can get away with defamation without fear of recrimination. 

Alex Salmond complainer dismisses Tory MP's claims as 'fundamentally untrue'

 

[vogie]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Gorgeous there, showing us that he's dropped all pretence of internationalism and fully embraced the ultra right wing racism of Brexit Britain. 

As always, the britnats, with nothing positive to offer, fall back on their bigotry and their blood and soil nationalism. 

 

I think George has got the Scottish Nationalists a tad worried by the sound of it, there is no one more bigoted than the Scots Nats that is why given every opportunity they call other people racists and nationalists, does that make a nationalist sleep better at night knowing he has called a Brit or an Englishman a nationalist. Why would people do that, it makes little or no sense to the average yoon.

But hey a message to you Rudy, latest polls are showing that the 'no' to partitioning of the UK stands at 57% now, and 92% of Scots have said that separation is not in their top 3 of priorties which just leaves 8% in the top 3, most of them on here I suspect.

So before you have a go at George Galloway it may be a good idea for the Scottish Nationalists to get their own house in order and people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And this is from the Guardian:

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think George has got the Scottish Nationalists a tad worried by the sound of it, there is no one more bigoted than the Scots Nats that is why given every opportunity they call other people racists and nationalists, does that make a nationalist sleep better at night knowing he has called a Brit or an Englishman a nationalist. Why would people do that, it makes little or no sense to the average yoon.

But hey a message to you Rudy, latest polls are showing that the 'no' to partitioning of the UK stands at 57% now, and 92% of Scots have said that separation is not in their top 3 of priorties which just leaves 8% in the top 3, most of them on here I suspect.

So before you have a go at George Galloway it may be a good idea for the Scottish Nationalists to get their own house in order and people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And this is from the Guardian:

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

You must be getting desperate, Vogie - not only using polls on your argument, but also relying in the Guardian? 

So you don't see anything wrong with a (failed) politician telling a Scottish minister of Asian heritage that the former is more of a Celt than the latter? That doesn't smell off to you? You don't even see a hint of ethnic nationalism there? Ok... 

 

In all fairness, you should have pointed out that you excerpt is a letter written by the most rabid of Britnats, Jill Stephenson, a woman with a history of racist tweets. Letters are opinions, not fact, especially when they are from such discredited sources. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think George has got the Scottish Nationalists a tad worried by the sound of it, there is no one more bigoted than the Scots Nats that is why given every opportunity they call other people racists and nationalists, does that make a nationalist sleep better at night knowing he has called a Brit or an Englishman a nationalist. Why would people do that, it makes little or no sense to the average yoon.

But hey a message to you Rudy, latest polls are showing that the 'no' to partitioning of the UK stands at 57% now, and 92% of Scots have said that separation is not in their top 3 of priorties which just leaves 8% in the top 3, most of them on here I suspect.

So before you have a go at George Galloway it may be a good idea for the Scottish Nationalists to get their own house in order and people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And this is from the Guardian:

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

Why is it that britnats of every hue seem to be mired in corruption and racism? 

 

Galloway charity ‘may have delivered no aid despite £1m donations’

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You must be getting desperate, Vogie - not only using polls on your argument, but also relying in the Guardian? 

So you don't see anything wrong with a (failed) politician telling a Scottish minister of Asian heritage that the former is more of a Celt than the latter? That doesn't smell off to you? You don't even see a hint of ethnic nationalism there? Ok... 

 

In all fairness, you should have pointed out that you excerpt is a letter written by the most rabid of Britnats, Jill Stephenson, a woman with a history of racist tweets. Letters are opinions, not fact, especially when they are from such discredited sources. 

Oh my god, polls and the Guardian are out of bounds now because they do not support your views, will they be back in favour if the tide turns, maybe I should just rely on the National for my news.

But really RR why does a Nationalist/follower of nationalism attack other nationalists that are of a minority compared to the Scots Nats, it does seem a very bigoted way to make a point.

[Rookiescot]

40 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think George has got the Scottish Nationalists a tad worried by the sound of it, there is no one more bigoted than the Scots Nats that is why given every opportunity they call other people racists and nationalists, does that make a nationalist sleep better at night knowing he has called a Brit or an Englishman a nationalist. Why would people do that, it makes little or no sense to the average yoon.

But hey a message to you Rudy, latest polls are showing that the 'no' to partitioning of the UK stands at 57% now, and 92% of Scots have said that separation is not in their top 3 of priorties which just leaves 8% in the top 3, most of them on here I suspect.

So before you have a go at George Galloway it may be a good idea for the Scottish Nationalists to get their own house in order and people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

And this is from the Guardian:

Scottish nationalism has attracted large numbers of Scots whose motivation is anti-Englishness and anti-Toryism – these two being congruent in many minds. Those who oppose Scottish independence are routinely abused as “traitors”, “quislings”, “not true Scots” (and these are the printable insults). We are told by some nationalists to “go back to England” when we are Scots, born and bred.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/18/scottish-nationalism-is-no-more-benign-than-its-english-equivalent

 

 

If you are reduced to using Jill Stephenson and George Galloway to back up your agenda then you have went through the bottom of the barrel. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

If you are reduced to using Jill Stephenson and George Galloway to back up your agenda then you have went through the bottom of the barrel. 

Why don't you answer my question then, why do Scots Nats feel the need to point the finger at other supposed nats, it's like me telling my neighbour to clean his garden weeds up whilst mine is covered in dog muck.

I did not bring George Galloway into this discussion, but wouldn't it be great if George had a chance to refute these allegations that Humza Yousaf brought against George and especially if they had a face to face off on our TVs, I suspect a lot more sleaze may emerge about the SNP. 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why don't you answer my question then, why do Scots Nats feel the need to point the finger at other supposed nats, it's like me telling my neighbour to clean his garden weeds up whilst mine is covered in dog muck.

I did not bring George Galloway into this discussion, but wouldn't it be great if George had a chance to refute these allegations that Humza Yousaf brought against George and especially if they had a face to face off on our TVs, I suspect a lot more sleaze may emerge about the SNP. 

There are different forms of nationalism Vogie. On one side you have civic nationalism (Civic nationalism - Wikipedia) and on the other ethnic nationalism (Ethnic nationalism - Wikipedia) and sadly blood and soil nationalism still exists (Blood and soil - Wikipedia).

In Scotland the vast majority of pro independence fall into the category of civic nationalists. 

In contrast British/English nationalists seem to fall into the category of ethnic nationalism with a good helping of blood and soil as well.

Now the difference is evident in attitudes towards things like EU membership.  

[vogie]

26 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

There are different forms of nationalism Vogie. On one side you have civic nationalism (Civic nationalism - Wikipedia) and on the other ethnic nationalism (Ethnic nationalism - Wikipedia) and sadly blood and soil nationalism still exists (Blood and soil - Wikipedia).

In Scotland the vast majority of pro independence fall into the category of civic nationalists. 

In contrast British/English nationalists seem to fall into the category of ethnic nationalism with a good helping of blood and soil as well.

Now the difference is evident in attitudes towards things like EU membership.  

I think here to suggest that English nationalism is bad whilst Scottish nationalism is good is most unfair and I believe that all nationalism is bad. I honestly believe it has split Scotland down the middle now. The Scots Nats are imposing their will on all Scots, that is not the way to build bridges.

If any Scot now even mentions he will vote other than SNP he his judged a pariah, I suspect most will just keep their mouths closed in fear of reprisal. Is it normal for hordes and hordes of saltire flag waving rabid SNP followers to be shouting "tory scum" many Scots still vote tory, would that be classed as very undemocratic to pressurize other citizens who do not follow the "movement" as traitors or Quislings. And banner waving fanatics saying 'England out of Scotland' be classed as anything other than bad nationalism. The nationalists have hijacked the Scots Flag just the same as the English nationalists hijacked our Union Flag, it is totally deplorable by anyones standard.

 

Now the difference is evident in attitudes towards things like EU membership.  

EU membership has a 101 reasons for not wishing to pay our subs, I suspect you are ok the way it transformed from a trading partner into something a lot more sinister, a lot were not.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think here to suggest that English nationalism is bad whilst Scottish nationalism is good is most unfair and I believe that all nationalism is bad. I honestly believe it has split Scotland down the middle now. The Scots Nats are imposing their will on all Scots, that is not the way to build bridges.

If any Scot now even mentions he will vote other than SNP he his judged a pariah, I suspect most will just keep their mouths closed in fear of reprisal. Is it normal for hordes and hordes of saltire flag waving rabid SNP followers to be shouting "tory scum" many Scots still vote tory, would that be classed as very undemocratic to pressurize other citizens who do not follow the "movement" as traitors or Quislings. And banner waving fanatics saying 'England out of Scotland' be classed as anything other than bad nationalism. The nationalists have hijacked the Scots Flag just the same as the English nationalists hijacked our Union Flag, it is totally deplorable by anyones standard.

 

Now the difference is evident in attitudes towards things like EU membership.  

EU membership has a 101 reasons for not wishing to pay our subs, I suspect you are ok the way it transformed from a trading partner into something a lot more sinister, a lot were not.

The country was split down the middle over Brexit but thats OK. Brexiteers imposed their will on everyone else. You will recall how often the word traitor was used even on here by Brexiteers to describe remainers. Also the accusations of being anti British for refusing to get behind Brexit.

As for the rest of your post. Clerkin is a clown. Him and his 5 or 6 mates are pretty much ostracised by everyone in Scotland. Unionists and Nationalists.

However if you are getting your information about whats going on in Scotland from people like Jill Stephenson it is no wonder you believe its a cesspit of anti English sentiment. Its what she wants you to believe.

If you want to see what violent nationalism looks like in Scotland try this. 

Wings Over Scotland | The side of the thugs dont attack the source. Counter the content if you can.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I think here to suggest that English nationalism is bad whilst Scottish nationalism is good is most unfair and I believe that all nationalism is bad. I honestly believe it has split Scotland down the middle now. The Scots Nats are imposing their will on all Scots, that is not the way to build bridges.

If any Scot now even mentions he will vote other than SNP he his judged a pariah, I suspect most will just keep their mouths closed in fear of reprisal. Is it normal for hordes and hordes of saltire flag waving rabid SNP followers to be shouting "tory scum" many Scots still vote tory, would that be classed as very undemocratic to pressurize other citizens who do not follow the "movement" as traitors or Quislings. And banner waving fanatics saying 'England out of Scotland' be classed as anything other than bad nationalism. The nationalists have hijacked the Scots Flag just the same as the English nationalists hijacked our Union Flag, it is totally deplorable by anyones standard.

 

Now the difference is evident in attitudes towards things like EU membership.  

EU membership has a 101 reasons for not wishing to pay our subs, I suspect you are ok the way it transformed from a trading partner into something a lot more sinister, a lot were not.

Nationalism where it's purpose or use excludes people who where of different ethnic backgrounds (anti-immigrant) is bad.  Nationalism as an identity born of where you grew up and therefore what cultural traits define you - not bad.  Nationalism as a weapon against (in your face) those that are not the same background as you (the orange parades for example) - is evil as it is meant to divide the people because of religion, race etc.  I am Canadian, and I have a nationalist streak in me in that it defines me.  I however don't see 'more recent' or new immigrants as bad, in fact I see them as a positive addition to Canada.   Immigration adds to the country culturally and there is no reason to be afraid of change due to immigration.... Will the countries culture change - sure, when you embrace new additions to the fabric of the country and accept this change as you accept the culture you grew up in.... you don't lose... you gain overall.   In fact the only constant in life is change.   I see someone who immigrated to Canada as just as Canadian as someone that has parents and grandparents born in Canada.  Is Canada the same as it was a generation ago, definitely not... but we are better for it.  Brexit at it's base was about rejecting change - trying to go back to some romanticized version of the 'good old days' ... 

In many ways it is a fine line...  as the society we grew up in is still very tribal.

Edited March 18, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[7by7]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:13 AM, vogie said:

<snip> I think here to suggest that English nationalism is bad whilst Scottish nationalism is good is most unfair and I believe that all nationalism is bad.

Are you really saying that you cannot tell the difference between the SNP and parties like the EDL and BNP?

Of course, not all English nationalists are of that ilk; but, unfortunately, due to the activities of those two and similar organisations, it's the vison which first springs to mind when the phrase "English nationalism" is uttered. Indeed, do even the slightest research into English nationalism and you'll find many organisations advocating such have far right and racist aims and policies.

"I believe that all nationalism is bad."

Do you include in that sweeping statement the nationalism such as that which played a major part in the break up of the Soviet Union?

The Role of Nationalism in the Dissolution of the Soviet Union

Edited March 20, 2021 by 7by7
Addendum

[Jimbo53]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:06 AM, vogie said:

Wrong person

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Jimbo53
Wrong person reply

[Jimbo53]

16 minutes ago, Jimbo53 said:

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Jimbo53
Wrong person

[Jimbo53]

On 3/17/2021 at 9:08 AM, RuamRudy said:

The Presiding Officer is a Labour MSP, but I didn't expect that you would have known that anyway, given your scant understanding of Scotland or Scottish politics. The make-up of the committee investigating the affair is, as standard, proportionate to the parties represented in the parliament, hardly Sturgeon's fault that the electorate sees the alternatives as woeful. But I am reluctant to pass judgement until the committee has ruled.

But you have failed to answer my question. Do you think that SNP politicians should be held to the same standards as Tory politicians when they are found to have broken the rules or broken the law?

The Presiding Officer is a Labour MSP

You are incorrect in stating this ,the Presiding Officer must be neutral in this position,you need to check your facts before posting!!

I will correct it for you: 

The Presiding Officer is a ' Former' Labour MSP

 

 

 

Following the last Scottish Parliament election, Ken Macintosh MSP was chosen by the other MSPs to be the Presiding Officer for the five years of this session. On this page, we explain his job to help you find out more about what he does.

The Presiding Officer does not belong to a political party. He must be neutral in all he does. This is important as he must chair debates and questions in the Debating Chamber fairly and treat all members equally. He is there to make sure MSPs follow the rules, keep order and call MSPs to speak. Some people say he is a cross between a headteacher and a referee. Even the First Minister has to listen to the Presiding Officer.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,presiding-officer-ken-macintosh-to-stand-down-at-scottish-election

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, Jimbo53 said:

The Presiding Officer is a Labour MSP

You are incorrect in stating this ,the Presiding Officer must be neutral in this position,you need to check your facts before posting!!

I will correct it for you: 

The Presiding Officer is a ' Former' Labour MSP

 

 

 

Following the last Scottish Parliament election, Ken Macintosh MSP was chosen by the other MSPs to be the Presiding Officer for the five years of this session. On this page, we explain his job to help you find out more about what he does.

The Presiding Officer does not belong to a political party. He must be neutral in all he does. This is important as he must chair debates and questions in the Debating Chamber fairly and treat all members equally. He is there to make sure MSPs follow the rules, keep order and call MSPs to speak. Some people say he is a cross between a headteacher and a referee. Even the First Minister has to listen to the Presiding Officer.

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,presiding-officer-ken-macintosh-to-stand-down-at-scottish-election

Are you suggesting that Mr Macintosh has relinquished his Labour Party membership? Possibly he has, I have no idea, but it is irrelevant; I made no comment on his impartiality. The point I was responding to stated:

On 3/17/2021 at 12:30 PM, vogie said:

...Mrs Sturgeons favour and even the presiding officer was her friend and fellow SNP member.

which is clearly not the case.

[vogie]

20 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Are you really saying that you cannot tell the difference between the SNP and parties like the EDL and BNP?

Of course, not all English nationalists are of that ilk; but, unfortunately, due to the activities of those two and similar organisations, it's the vison which first springs to mind when the phrase "English nationalism" is uttered. Indeed, do even the slightest research into English nationalism and you'll find many organisations advocating such have far right and racist aims and policies.

"I believe that all nationalism is bad."

Do you include in that sweeping statement the nationalism such as that which played a major part in the break up of the Soviet Union?

The Role of Nationalism in the Dissolution of the Soviet Union

I am talking about Scottish Nationalism here seeing as it a Scottish thread and Nationalism in general, I haven't read up yet on Russian nationalism yet, but the information you include just so you can win the argument is quite outstanding.

Nationalism is nationalism and why a socialist would give their backing when nationalism and socialism are at both ends of the spectrum defies all logic, you can tie a bow around it to make it look better and even spray it with an 1960s bottle of Old Spice to make it smell better, but at the end of the day it is still nationalism.

This is a quote from the author Elif Shafak, maybe she'll need no introduction to you? She goes on to say:

"People like to think that their nationalism is not as ugly as other peoples nationalism, and that their nationalism is actually the right type of nationalism, that is civilised nationalism, and I don't believe in that, I think the core of nationalism is quite ugly. It is devisive, it is based on a distinction between 'us' versus 'them' and the assumption, that 'us' is somewhat better than 'them' 

So their you have it, some would have us believe that:

Scottish nationalism: Great.

Irish nationalism: Wonderful and romantic.

Welsh nationalism: To be encouraged.

French nationalism: Yep, great.

English nationalism: Terrible, evil.

British nationalism: Doesn't exist anymore.

(Not my own work)⬆️⬆️⬆️

 

[youreavinalaff]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:45 AM, 7by7 said:

BTW, only 43.6% of voters voted Tory in December 2019. Does your insistence on a 50% plus vote share in Scotland mean that you believe they have no mandate for Brexit?

Why?

 

The Tories were given the mandate for Brexit by the referendum. I believe the referendum result was in the region of 52% in favour.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Why?

 

The Tories were given the mandate for Brexit by the referendum. I believe the referendum result was in the region of 52% in favour.

But if they lost it was unfinished business.

An advisory referendum is not a mandate.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Sujo

[7by7]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

I am talking about Scottish Nationalism here seeing as it a Scottish thread and Nationalism in general, I haven't read up yet on Russian nationalism yet, but the information you include just so you can win the argument is quite outstanding.

Nationalism is nationalism and why a socialist would give their backing when nationalism and socialism are at both ends of the spectrum defies all logic, you can tie a bow around it to make it look better and even spray it with an 1960s bottle of Old Spice to make it smell better, but at the end of the day it is still nationalism.

This is a quote from the author Elif Shafak, maybe she'll need no introduction to you? She goes on to say:

"People like to think that their nationalism is not as ugly as other peoples nationalism, and that their nationalism is actually the right type of nationalism, that is civilised nationalism, and I don't believe in that, I think the core of nationalism is quite ugly. It is devisive, it is based on a distinction between 'us' versus 'them' and the assumption, that 'us' is somewhat better than 'them' 

So their you have it, some would have us believe that:

Scottish nationalism: Great.

Irish nationalism: Wonderful and romantic.

Welsh nationalism: To be encouraged.

French nationalism: Yep, great.

English nationalism: Terrible, evil.

British nationalism: Doesn't exist anymore.

(Not my own work)⬆️⬆️⬆️

 

 

It wasn't me who brought English nationalism into the thread; and I was responding directly to a post of yours as is obvious because I quoted it! I refer you to that response.

 

To repeat; not all English nationalists are bad, but those that are, like the EDL, get the headlines and that is why they and their ilk come first to most people's mind's when the phrase "English nationalism" is spoken or written.

 

 "I haven't read up yet on Russian nationalism yet, but the information you include just so you can win the argument is quite outstanding." 

I know that Brexiteers are against providing information and evidence to support their arguments, but I believe in doing so. Read the link; it's not all about Russian nationalism. It was also used to support my view that not all nationalism is bad. 

 

Telling that, as usual, you have dodged and not answered the question!

 

"Nationalism is nationalism and why a socialist would give their backing....."

Which socialist is that, then?

 

"This is a quote from the author Elif Shafak...."

Why no link to it's source?

 

You should read more of her works on the matter. Do so and you'll find she is not against the sort of nationalism represented by the SNP, but the tribal nationalism which focuses on ethnicity she first witnessed in her home country. 

 

Indeed, due to the activities of many parties calling themselves nationalists across Europe, the words 'nationalism' and 'nationalist' are becoming more and more associated with the alt-right.

 

Something recognised by, among others, Sturgeon in 2017: Scotland's Sturgeon says nationalism a difficult word

Quote

“What those of us who support Scottish independence are all about could not be further removed from some of what you would recognize as nationalism in other parts of the world,” she said, speaking to Turkish writer Elif Shafak.

 

 

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, Sujo said:

But if they lost it was unfinished business.

An advisory referendum is not a mandate.

If who lost? The referendum paved the way for Brexit.

 

Anyone who is saying that the Tories did it or the Tories are to blame are wrong.

 

David Cameron put the vote to the people. The people voted leave. That, in a democracy, gives the government the mandate to act upon the decision.

 

This is the problem here. The Scottish nationalists, who believe it is their god given right to have indyref2 because of Brexit and democracy, would have been jumping for joy had Labour, or god forbid LibDems, won the election and gone against the referendum and cancelled the idea of leaving EU. Democracy is just that, democracy, and needs to be respected by both sides.

 

I hope Scotland do have another independence referendum and I hope the result is accepted by all, regardless of what that result might be. I also hope that the UK leaving the EU referendum result will also be accepted for what it was. That is, a vote for the people of UK by the people of the UK. Not any arguments about what region might have voted for what.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Why?

 Read the whole post rather than just the part you've quoted out of context and your question will be answered.

 

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

The Tories were given the mandate for Brexit by the referendum. I believe the referendum result was in the region of 52% in favour.

The UK is still a democracy. In a democracy, people have the right to change their mind.

 

In 2019 Johnson tried various dirty tricks to get his proposed EU withdrawal agreement into law without Parliament voting on it. These failed, so he called a general election. In that general election, approximately 54% voted for parties which promised, at the very least, a referendum on whether or not to accept that proposed withdrawal agreement. Unfortunately, our FPTP system denied us that.

 

At present it seems that Johnson's government will deny the Scottish people the right to determine their own future even if more than 50% vote for independence supporting parties in May.

 

Many Brexiteers and those opposed to IndyRef2 have made it clear that they only believe in democracy when the result suits them. Are you in that group?