Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arkady]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Thanks for the maps!

 

I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of the NIA interview. They asked for yet another, "bai rap rong been duan" or letter from my work stating my salary. Also a few other documents like work permit and passport. Don't they get the files from SB? I did have to hand in 5 copies of them all.

Anyways, it is what it is, and another trip to Bangkok.

Any tips would be welcome as to how many people will interview us, the questions asked, and what would be appropriate you wear. I assume this is not as important as the interview with the MOI.

Is this the one that used to take place at the McDonald's at Ploenjit?

 

When I did it at McD's it was fairly relaxed. I was interviewed by only one officer but recent interviews have been with more than one.  The line of questioning seemed aimed at verifying the facts regarding one's situation in Thailand, job, marriage, family, accommodation.  I got some questions about the ownership of my house, which seemed intended as a way to cross reference the relationship with the missus and how long we had been together etc, although at first, being paranoid, I took it as an investigation into foreign ownership of landed property.  I was not asked to bring any document copies or a salary letter but had to bring the originals of passport, WP tabien baan etc for verification.  The officer must have had all the copies and the application form from SB but conducted the interview, as if he knew nothing about me.  

[GabbaGabbaHey]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of the NIA interview. They asked for yet another, "bai rap rong been duan" or letter from my work stating my salary. Also a few other documents like work permit and passport. Don't they get the files from SB? I did have to hand in 5 copies of them all.

Anyways, it is what it is, and another trip to Bangkok.

Any tips would be welcome as to how many people will interview us, the questions asked, and what would be appropriate you wear. I assume this is not as important as the interview with the MOI.

Is this the one that used to take place at the McDonald's at Ploenjit?

There were two interviewers at my NIA interview, and something like four to six tables with different applicants being interviewed simultaneously (all had two interviewers as far as I remember) at the food court of the Ministry of Education. I got one question on my salary and there were happy to see the copy of the company letter. Which points that applicants should keep a copy of anything they hand to SB, especially company documents and any documents that are certified, translated or legalized.

My interview lasted around 30 minutes. It started from scratch (name, birth date, place of birth... yes, true, as if they had got no document from SB at all). It was more a verification of original documents (PR, work permit, passport, tabian baan...) checking dates and facts, than a personality interview, they were filling a form with my figures. To answer details such as dates when me and my wife met, I took the letter of presentation that SB asked me to write during the process, and gave them a copy since everything they could possibly ask was detailed inside. They seemed happy with that.

Eventually this was an informal interview without stress. Just bring your documents and show which they will ask to see, and answer basic questions on your background.

For the dress code, I'd say that being yourself in the best presentation you want to give of yourself will make it. Anything clean and polite should be fine. I don't think a business suit is required, unless someone feels more comfortable wearing it. I did wear an office shirt with neck tie, office pants. 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by GabbaGabbaHey

[Neeranam]

13 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

, I took the letter of presentation that SB asked me to write during the process, and gave them a copy since everything they could possibly ask was detailed inside. They seemed happy with that.

Thanks for the tips.

I've never been asked to write such a letter.

[MrPatrickThai]

Is there a special rule for Germans gaining Thai citizenship and keeping their German one?

 

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

 

Also, I heard that UK citizenship can never be taken away, even if it is renounced, is this true?

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by MrPatrickThai

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Is there a special rule for Germans gaining Thai citizenship and keeping their German one?

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

Also, I heard that UK citizenship can never be taken away, even if it is renounced, is this true?

 

Germany does not allow dual nationalities unless the other nationality is from birth. If applied for here then it can be taken away when Thai nationality is obtained.

Unless a person follows up on the letter of intent the UK nationality is not lost. Not sure about it never being lost if it is renounced.

[Mattd]

37 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Unless a person follows up on the letter of intent the UK nationality is not lost. Not sure about it never being lost if it is renounced.

If a British citizen goes head and renounces his citizenship and it is accepted, then they will have one chance to regain  their British citizenship again.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417595/rs1_guide_mar_2015.pdf

[GabbaGabbaHey]

12 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Thanks for the tips.

I've never been asked to write such a letter.

Which is not a problem. If you read the whole topic you'll notice each applicant has a different experience and got some ad hoc request for things not part of the initial requirement (additions, amendments to documents...). From my point of view this is part of the psychological process so until I'm done I'm ok to provide anything they ask me.

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Is there a special rule for Germans gaining Thai citizenship and keeping their German one?

 

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

 

Also, I heard that UK citizenship can never be taken away, even if it is renounced, is this true?

 

 

 

I'm not sure about Germans. But according to the nationality act chapter 2 section 19, there are several reasons why your thai nationality can be revoked. Including something as simple as not having a docimile in Thailand for a few years. 

I fail to agree that anyone can attain thai nationality if their birth nationality has been revoked or even is going to be revoked. 

Really I'm not trolling or trying to derail the thread. If I have thai nationality and committed a serious crime, after prison is served my thai nationality would be revoked and I would be sent back to my place of birth. 

It's as simple as that. 

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Germany does not allow dual nationalities unless the other nationality is from birth. If applied for here then it can be taken away when Thai nationality is obtained.

Unless a person follows up on the letter of intent the UK nationality is not lost. Not sure about it never being lost if it is renounced.

 

That is the general rule re dual nationality for Germans but there are a number of wrinkles in it.  One is that, if a German citizen naturalising as an alien can present a reason for retaining German nationality that is deemed acceptable to the German Foreign Ministry, he or she can be given permission to be a dual national.  Germans interested in doing this should apply for the permission in Berlin before they apply for the other nationality, or at least before it has been granted.  As I understand it, permission is unlikely to be granted after the fact and failing to gain permission in advance is likely to result in an automatic revocation of German citizenship.  I know of several Germans who successfully applied for this permission in advance.  The argument needs to be on the lines of wishing to retain links with the fatherland but live in Thailand where there are are significant disadvantages for long-term foreign residents without Thai nationality, e.g. cannot own land, cannot own one's own business etc.  Plus giving up German nationality to get around this would put them at significant disadvantages re travel visas and rights and benefits as a German and EU citizen.  

 

I understand that it is possible for Thais naturalising as Germans to make the same argument in reverse.  However, judging by the stream of voluntary renunciations of Thai nationality to acquire German nationality announced in the RG, many of them are unaware of this, or perhaps their applications to be permitted to hold dual nationality were rejected by Berlin. There are also quite a few Thais who renounce their Thai nationality to obtain US nationality, which is clearly totally naive and unnecessary.

[NewlyMintedThai]

I'm not sure about Germans. But according to the nationality act chapter 2 section 19, there are several reasons why your thai nationality can be revoked. Including something as simple as not having a docimile in Thailand for a few years. 
I fail to agree that anyone can attain thai nationality if their birth nationality has been revoked or even is going to be revoked. 
Really I'm not trolling or trying to derail the thread. If I have thai nationality and committed a serious crime, after prison is served my thai nationality would be revoked and I would be sent back to my place of birth. 
It's as simple as that. 

Not “would be”. At best, “might be”.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

I'm not sure about Germans. But according to the nationality act chapter 2 section 19, there are several reasons why your thai nationality can be revoked. Including something as simple as not having a docimile in Thailand for a few years. 

I fail to agree that anyone can attain thai nationality if their birth nationality has been revoked or even is going to be revoked. 

Really I'm not trolling or trying to derail the thread. If I have thai nationality and committed a serious crime, after prison is served my thai nationality would be revoked and I would be sent back to my place of birth. 

It's as simple as that. 

 

I agree that the notion of making naturalised Thais renounce former nationality is somewhat incompatible with the sections of the Act that provide for revocation of naturalised Thais' nationality under certain circumstances.  If someone has renounced their former nationality and a Thai court orders revocation of their Thai nationality, the Thai government may not be able to deport them after they have finished their criminal sentence.  The person would be stateless and their former country of nationality is under no obligation to take them back, while no airline will let them board unless they have been given a special travel document by that country's embassy.  Thailand could end up in the situation of having to retain a stateless individual who has no rights and no way to legally earn a living, as well as being in violation of the convention against statelessness to which it is a signatory.  It would actually make more sense to encourage people to retain former nationality, so that the Thai government has an easy means of revoking their Thai nationality and deporting them in line with the Act, if necessary. . Of course, this could not work with nationalities that get automatically revoked when someone obtains Thai nationality.   

 

The UK approaches this problem under its most recent Nationality Act amendments by saying UK nationality can be revoked (regardless of whether it from birth or naturalisation), if the person is a security threat and either has another nationality or is believed to be eligible for another nationality.  This has been done in some high level cases, included a Muslim cleric who was involved in grooming terrorists.  But these cases involve high level negotiation with the other country.  ln the case of the cleric Jordan agreed to take him and give him Jordanian nationality.  There have been orders for revocation of Thai nationality in the RG due to criminal convictions but the announcements don't mention whether the convicts had another nationality or a country to which they could be deported.  I suspect the court would not pay much heed to that aspect and would just follow the law by ordering the revocation, leaving other government agencies to figure out how to deport them or what to do with them, if they could not.          

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

I agree that the notion of making naturalised Thais renounce former nationality is somewhat incompatible with the sections of the Act that provide for revocation of naturalised Thais' nationality under certain circumstances.  If someone has renounced their former nationality and a Thai court orders revocation of their Thai nationality, the Thai government may not be able to deport them after they have finished their criminal sentence.  The person would be stateless and their former country of nationality is under no obligation to take them back, while no airline will let them board unless they have been given a special travel document by that country's embassy.  Thailand could end up in the situation of having to retain a stateless individual who has no rights and no way to legally earn a living, as well as being in violation of the convention against statelessness to which it is a signatory.  It would actually make more sense to encourage people to retain former nationality, so that the Thai government has an easy means of revoking their Thai nationality and deporting them in line with the Act, if necessary. . Of course, this could not work with nationalities that get automatically revoked when someone obtains Thai nationality.   

 

The UK approaches this problem under its most recent Nationality Act amendments by saying UK nationality can be revoked (regardless of whether it from birth or naturalisation), if the person is a security threat and either has another nationality or is believed to be eligible for another nationality.  This has been done in some high level cases, included a Muslim cleric who was involved in grooming terrorists.  But these cases involve high level negotiation with the other country.  ln the case of the cleric Jordan agreed to take him and give him Jordanian nationality.  There have been orders for revocation of Thai nationality in the RG due to criminal convictions but the announcements don't mention whether the convicts had another nationality or a country to which they could be deported.  I suspect the court would not pay much heed to that aspect and would just follow the law by ordering the revocation, leaving other government agencies to figure out how to deport them or what to do with them, if they could not.          

Well I did say a very long time ago the very same thing. You would be stateless. 

And in a case like America, once you renounce your citizenship, you cannot reestablish it. I think I did read somewhere that laotions cannot attain thai nationality and it is because of the very fact that their country will denounce their Lao citizenship if applying for another. Therefore thailand would not be able to deport them. 

What does truly surprise me is the SB even accepting a letter saying you have intention to renounce, because of all the above reasons. 

The mind boggles. 

[greenchair]

8 hours ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

 

 

Not “would be”. At best, “might be”.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Well according to chapter 2 section 19 (4) no might be about it. 

The minister has the power to revoke nationality if you go against public order. 

But anyway, my point is, that law would be useless if you have renounced your birth nationality. So it surprises me that thailand would even allow an intention to renounce. 

It would put them in a difficult position if a man raped a woman or was selling drugs or committed a crime against the state. 

[MrPatrickThai]

52 minutes ago, greenchair said:

So it surprises me that thailand would even allow an intention to renounce. 

It would put them in a difficult position if a man raped a woman or was selling drugs or committed a crime against the state.

It's an intention only. They don't make people renounce, if their country allows dual citizenship.

 

[greenchair]

5 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

It's an intention only. They don't make people renounce, if their country allows dual citizenship.

 

They don't know that you have no intention of actually doing. 

It surprises me that they allow you to even have that intention. 

It's makes section 2 unenforceable. 

Basically, they are stuck with you, even if you are a thieving, gambling, drug smuggling, murdering rapist thug. 

Why would they do that? 

[MrPatrickThai]

28 minutes ago, greenchair said:

They don't know that you have no intention of actually doing. 

It surprises me that they allow you to even have that intention. 

It's makes section 2 unenforceable. 

Basically, they are stuck with you, even if you are a thieving, gambling, drug smuggling, murdering rapist thug. 

Why would they do that? 

Maybe they want to make sure one is serious about gaining Thai citizenship?

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Maybe they want to make sure one is serious about gaining Thai citizenship?

 

I think they are not really worried about people becoming stateless as a result of committing a crime.  Now I remember that there was a group of Chinese born in Thailand to alien parents who had their Thai nationality revoked for committing fairly trivial offences.  When they had finished their relatively short sentences, the Thais tried to deport them to China but China would not accept them because they didn't have Chinese citizenship.   So they were just left in prison for 25 or 30 years, which is what the law prescribes for those who can't be deported, completely forgotten by the world, until some local Thai Chinese activists discovered them. They were released and had their Thai citizenship restored with much fanfare by the government which wanted to show its generosity, on the grounds that the revocation for trivial offences was actually a procedural error.

 

So that's what probably awaits anyone who renounces their original citizenship and commits a serious crime in Thailand - literally life in prison.    

 

 

 

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

Well I did say a very long time ago the very same thing. You would be stateless. 

And in a case like America, once you renounce your citizenship, you cannot reestablish it. I think I did read somewhere that laotions cannot attain thai nationality and it is because of the very fact that their country will denounce their Lao citizenship if applying for another. Therefore thailand would not be able to deport them. 

What does truly surprise me is the SB even accepting a letter saying you have intention to renounce, because of all the above reasons. 

The mind boggles. 

 

Laos certainly does prohibit dual citizenship but there have been plenty of announcements in the RG of Lao women adopting their husbands' Thai nationality.  Laos is a very corrupt country and there are plenty of Lao dual citizens who bribe the authorities not to bother them.  In Vientiane I met a farang guy with a Lao wife who said he had paid US$30,000 over 10 years ago to get his Lao nationality approved with a VIP service that included missing out the step where he was supposed to show evidence of renouncing his farang nationality. I am told the price is a lot more now.        

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Maybe they want to make sure one is serious about gaining Thai citizenship?

Hmmm. 

 

So I heard that the nz embassy refuses to give this

"letter of renouncement"

What does everyone have to say about that. 

Huh. 

[MrPatrickThai]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

Hmmm. 

 

So I heard that the nz embassy refuses to give this

"letter of renouncement"

What does everyone have to say about that. 

Huh. 

Very surprising. I think a NZ citizen could take them to some international court for abusing their human rights i.e not allowing them to be Thai citizens, if that's what you're saying.

[Naam]

On 1/24/2018 at 7:31 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Is there a special rule for Germans gaining Thai citizenship and keeping their German one?

 

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

 

Also, I heard that UK citizenship can never be taken away, even if it is renounced, is this true?

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

 

correct!

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Very surprising. I think a NZ citizen could take them to some international court for abusing their human rights i.e not allowing them to be Thai citizens, if that's what you're saying.

What I'm saying is, they get the citizenship without this so called mandatory letter. 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

On another thread, someone say a German must acquire the go ahead from the German government but usually has to forfeit it.

 

correct!

 

 

Incorrect.  The German Foreign Ministry is known to approve reasonably argued applications to retain German citizenship in addition to Thai citizenship.  Realistically,  the main thrust of the German restrictions on dual nationality in the post-war period has been to make it more difficult for its large Turkish population to get German citizenship, knowing that they don't want to cut off their ties with Turkey and give up rights there.  Even this policy has had to be softened in recent years to keep up with the times and global trends.  A tiny number of expats in Thailand becoming dual nationals presents absolutely no threat to them.      

[Barty]

4 hours ago, greenchair said:

Hmmm. 

 

So I heard that the nz embassy refuses to give this

"letter of renouncement"

What does everyone have to say about that. 

Huh. 

I am a NZ citizen. I did get a letter of renouncement from the NZ embassy.

[MrPatrickThai]

5 minutes ago, Barty said:

I am a NZ citizen. I did get a letter of renouncement from the NZ embassy.

Indeed, don't believe half of what you hear.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

Incorrect.  The German Foreign Ministry is known to approve reasonably argued applications to retain German citizenship in addition to Thai citizenship.  Realistically,  the main thrust of the German restrictions on dual nationality in the post-war period has been to make it more difficult for its large Turkish population to get German citizenship, knowing that they don't want to cut off their ties with Turkey and give up rights there.  Even this policy has had to be softened in recent years to keep up with the times and global trends.  A tiny number of expats in Thailand becoming dual nationals presents absolutely no threat to them.      

fact: my wife could retain her British citizenship when she got (based on our marriage) German citizenship. however, four years ago her application to approve additional citizenship of her "ancestral" country was flatly denied, appeal not possible.

 

reasons: no blood relatives living in Germany, no property or economic ties to Germany (no taxes!), no intention to return and live in Germany.

[Arkady]

33 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Seems you know a lot more than German citizens. Surprised to see Naam on this thread so often, given the ridicule he gives Thai citizens.

I am one of those people who was denied German citizenship despite being born there (not Turkish) due to the lack of Master Race blood flowing in my veins at a time when nearly all Western countries gave citizenship as jus soli, not that I wanted it anyway - sour grapes.

[Naam]

2 minutes ago, Arkady said:

I am one of those people who was denied German citizenship despite being born there (not Turkish) due to the lack of Master Race blood flowing in my veins at a time when nearly all Western countries gave citizenship as jus soli, not that I wanted it anyway - sour grapes.

that's one of the sad stories when you compare it with "immigrants" from Kazakhstan who get German citizenship because their grandfather owned a German shepherd (slightly exaggerated but in essence correct).

[Arkady]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

fact: my wife could retain her British citizenship when she got (based on our marriage) German citizenship. however, four years ago her application to approve additional citizenship of her "ancestral" country was flatly denied, appeal not possible.

 

reasons: no blood relatives living in Germany, no property or economic ties to Germany (no taxes!), no intention to return and live in Germany.

I assume the implementation of the policy is biased in favour of those who are German by birth but I suppose not having links in Germany would justify the rejection in their view. They probably make it hard for non-EU citizens naturalising as Germans to retain their other nationalities too which would explain why Thais give up Thai nationality to become German.  While Britain is still in the EU retaining British and other EU citizenships is I think automatic as a reciprocal agreement. 

[Will27]

12 minutes ago, Naam said:

that's one of the sad stories when you compare it with "immigrants" from Kazakhstan who get German citizenship because their grandfather owned a German shepherd (slightly exaggerated but in essence correct).

A bit over the top Naam.

 

I heard they at least had to have a Miele vacuum cleaner a well.