Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[NewlyMintedThai]

Yes, it would definitely take time, effort, and money to set up. And the appearance of a legitimate business might be necessary. But it is still possible.


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[yankee99]

25 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You forgot a work permit, a minimum income of 40k baht proven by tax payments for 3 years.

From Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization 

 

 

Is there a link in thai language?

[ubonjoe]

Just now, yankee99 said:

Is there a link in thai language?

Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization Thai text

[yankee99]

thank you

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

Well, you could set up a company, relinquish your retirement visa in favor of a non-imm B and work permit, then wait three years. That is, if you really wanted to.


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There you go. ....

No no, yes. 

Seems there is a way. 

Having citizenship makes life very relaxed and enjoyable. It would be well worth it for a 60 year old that may well be here another 20 years or so. 

I knew there was a loophole somewhere .☺☺☺

Apologies for the nasty posts by all accepted. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

There is no contradiction. It is not possible as a retiree. You would have to come out of retirement and work for three years (assuming marriage to a Thai) before you would become eligible to apply.

I hope that this it is clear enough.


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[greenchair]

1 minute ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

There is no contradiction. It is not possible as a retiree. You would have to come out of retirement and work for three years (assuming marriage to a Thai) before you would become eligible to apply.

I hope that this it is clear enough.


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Well you didn't say that. 

You said there were only 2 ways. 

Marriage with wp 3 years.

Or pr with wp. 

You said any other way is impossible. 

I said never give up find another way. 

You all said no way, impossible. 

I am sure that many retirees would read all your posts and give up before starting, since everyone is so experienced and knowledgeable about the law. 

Then you come up with this little gem and those poor retirees have been frightened off with all that bs.

 even retirees would like to know every option available and should not be hit with a brick wall by pessimistic people. 

So being the optimist that I am. 

Go ahead Patrick set up a company. Don't let the naysayers put you off. 

The lawyer did it for me. 

I didn't need 3 million and I didn't hire 6 people. 

It was easy. 

One and all. ...

Start your road to lovely citizenship today chaiyo

[NewlyMintedThai]

There ARE and CONTINUE TO BE only two ways: marriage with wp 3 years, PR with wp 5 years.

Retirees with no work permit are NOT eligible.

Never have been, still are not.

I hope you get it now, but I'm not convinced...


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[greenchair]

34 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

There ARE and CONTINUE TO BE only two ways: marriage with wp 3 years, PR with wp 5 years.

Retirees with no work permit are NOT eligible.

Never have been, still are not.

I hope you get it now, but I'm not convinced...


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No a retiree can change to be a company owner and then wp. 

It is still a special path that a retiree can take and deserves to be addressed on this site. 

Stop telling retirees there is no path for them. There is !!!!

I hope you get that now, but I'm  not convinced. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

They aren't retired anymore if they have a work permit! The only path is to no longer be a retiree. I'd think that would be quite obvious to (almost) anyone...


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[blackcab]

22 minutes ago, greenchair said:

No a retiree can change to be a company owner and then wp. 

It is still a special path that a retiree can take and deserves to be addressed on this site. 

Stop telling retirees there is no path for them. There is !!!!

I hope you get that now, but I'm  not convinced. 

 

Unless you are American or you fall under BOI rules or other specialist rules such as the Petroleum Act then you cannot be a business owner in Thailand. You can only be a minority shareholder.

 

Based upon the sum total of all available knowledge there is no "special path" that is available to the common man. Either you have a work permit with 3 years qualifying tax payments, or you do not.

[NewlyMintedThai]

You can still form a company, you just need a Thai friend to hold 51% of the shares. If you are married, you are already married to one. Not a big obstacle, but again you cannot be a retiree and hold a work permit. You would have to relinquish your status and come out of retirement.


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[perthperson]

40 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

but again you cannot be a retiree and hold a work permit.

On a purely factual basis you are wrong!  Do a search here for reports that contradict your opinion.

[jayboy]

You can still form a company, you just need a Thai friend to hold 51% of the shares. If you are married, you are already married to one. Not a big obstacle, but again you cannot be a retiree and hold a work permit. You would have to relinquish your status and come out of retirement.


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It is a very high barrier indeed and it's misleading to suggest otherwise.Do you have the slightest idea what is involved in forming a company in Thailand with regard to start up capital, reporting requirements,audit requirements and other legal obligations? Furthermore and critically the company must have a sound commercial footing since otherwise failure to secure the objective is inevitable.

I have no doubt there are bottom feeding lawyers/ law firms who will act in these cases for gullible foreigners - but that's a different matter.

Your advice is worthless.


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[NewlyMintedThai]

Yes, having set up a dozen or so companies in my 30 years in Thailand, I do have an idea of what is required. Feel free to disregard my post if you disagree with it.


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[greenchair]

1 hour ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

You can still form a company, you just need a Thai friend to hold 51% of the shares. If you are married, you are already married to one. Not a big obstacle, but again you cannot be a retiree and hold a work permit. You would have to relinquish your status and come out of retirement.


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Part one, just going to say that. 

Thank you. 

Part 2 if it makes you feel better. 

 

[jayboy]

Yes, having set up a dozen or so companies in my 30 years in Thailand, I do have an idea of what is required. Feel free to disregard my post if you disagree with it.


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In which case (assuming you are not fibbing) you should be aware that what you suggest - attempting to secure citizenship as a retiree by setting up a company - is an absurd proposal as well as being astonishingly bad advice.








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[NewlyMintedThai]

In what way, exactly? You can set up a company simply in a matter of minutes...no lawyer required. And the Thai partner need not have any directorial control over the entity, or even be a signatory on its bank account. Tens of thousands of people have done it. Put the minimum number of locals on the payroll, get yourself a work permit, show some income and profit...piece of cake and extremely common. Or just find a buddy with a company and ask him to put you on payroll and get you a work permit. All it takes is a little imagination.


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[Arkady]

It is very clear in the Nationality Act that there is no route to citizenship for a retiree, unless that retiree also happens to be female and married to a Thai male, in which case it is no consequence whether she is working or not, as she is supposed to be dependent on her husband.  Even in that case the applicant would be on an extension based on marriage, not based on retirement.

 

Even,  in a case where a male was permitted (or invited)  to apply under Section 11.1 in recognition of of distinguished service rendered to Thailand or the government, he would still need to be working with a work permit and paying taxes etc. Section 11.1 gives exemption from the requirement to have permanent residence and to have knowledge of the Thai language but it does not provide exemption from Section 10.3, which is the requirement to have an occupation in Thailand. Thus someone applying under Section 11.1 would be in the same position as those who apply on the basis of having a Thai wife.  

 

Of course it is possible to come out of retirement and find a job and qualify that way, as I suggested early in this sub-discussion.  It is also possible to find a job in a company founded by yourself, if the costs and effort is worthwhile.   If the company is a genuine business, at least of moderate substance, this should not be a problem.   In the case of a 'man of straw' company which no real business, it is very to set it up but not all that easy to keep it going and keep on getting NON-IMMB visas and work permits.  Immigration will want to see a reasonable profit in the accounts to renew the visas and without those you can't renew work permits.  Cycling income through a 'man of straw' business requires a reasonable amount of capital and you will have to get audited accounts and pay tax etc.   It may be a bit easier to do this for someone married to a Thai who can apply for citizenship directly without getting PR first and with the ability to work on marriage extensions without needing NON-B visas but you still need  a convincing story about your business when you are interviewed.  If you have to rely on NON-B visas and get PR first, it would be virtually a non-starter as you will probably get blown up with the NON-B visas before you get anywhere near the PR process which is a lot more demanding than the process for citizenship.  Immigration would most likely pick up on a fake business in the PR application process, if one did that far.  

 

For anyone who has enough capital to set up and maintain a 'man of straw' company for many years with a renewable work permit, in my opinion, they would do better to set up a real business or buy an existing business.     

 

[NewlyMintedThai]

Well, that's certainly an option. Though with a "real" company you really have to work...and have the real risk of losing your shirt. With a straw man company that you simply run money through, you're only "out" what you pay in corporate and personal income taxes on yourself and your "staff". In the end, it all depends on how much you want to risk, how much you want to work, and how much you really, REALLY want to be a citizen. Lots of people have such entities, though, for one reason or another. There's nothing "astonishing" about it.


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[Arkady]

2 hours ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

Well, that's certainly an option. Though with a "real" company you really have to work...and have the real risk of losing your shirt. With a straw man company that you simply run money through, you're only "out" what you pay in corporate and personal income taxes on yourself and your "staff". In the end, it all depends on how much you want to risk, how much you want to work, and how much you really, REALLY want to be a citizen. Lots of people have such entities, though, for one reason or another. There's nothing "astonishing" about it.


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It's true that your losses are limited to your costs and will be fairly predictable with a 'man of straw' company.   You need to have at least something that looks like a convincing home office when various government agencies come round.  'When you apply for VAT registration which is necessary to get a work permit, the Revenue Department quite often come round.  The Labour Ministry might come to check when you first apply for a WP and they will also want to check up on the working conditions of your 4 Thai staff and will ask to interview them.  The Revenue Dept may come again periodically after checking up for the VAT registration.   Neither will make an appointment in advance.  You can often fob them off with stories but you need some one who is good at dealing with government officials to do that. 

 

If you have to apply for permanent residence first Immigration might block you with hidden barriers.  When I applied in the late 90s, I had an introduction to a pol maj gen at Immigration, who showed me a pile of PR applications that had been rejected on the grounds that their employers had the minimum paid up capital of B2 million needed to apply for a work permit.  He told me that setting an internal minimum paid up capital level of B5 million was a simple way of weeding out PR applicants from 'man of straw' companies established just to get visas and PR without having to bother with any troublesome investigation.  The applications were not informed of the real reason for their rejections and he told me that some of them applied again year after year (in those days you got the answer within 12 months) without understanding that they could  easily have got through by increasing paid up capital by B3 million and in those days there was no real check that the capital was paid up at all.  We all know about 'man of straw' companies - and so do they.

 

      

[greenchair]

Arkady, you are such a negative Norman. I had a a company and I didn't have to go through any of the chaos you are talking about. Stop trying to put people off getting citizenship. As for Section 11 it only mentions section 10  (4)(5)

Section 3 is merely to make sure you have an income. a retirement benefit is an income. Quite frankly I think the topic deserves some more investigation and as I said the retiree should go to special branch and inquire. 

[greenchair]

11 hours ago, perthperson said:

On a purely factual basis you are wrong!  Do a search here for reports that contradict your opinion.

I would be so grateful if you could possibly elaborate on that. 

☺☺☺☺

[Arkady]

16 hours ago, greenchair said:

Arkady, you are such a negative Norman. I had a a company and I didn't have to go through any of the chaos you are talking about. Stop trying to put people off getting citizenship. As for Section 11 it only mentions section 10  (4)(5)

Section 3 is merely to make sure you have an income. a retirement benefit is an income. Quite frankly I think the topic deserves some more investigation and as I said the retiree should go to special branch and inquire. 

 

Section 10.3 does not mean that applicants need to have an income, including a pension.  It says they need to have evidence of an occupation ( มีอาชีพ เป็น หลักฐาน) and the interpretation of this by the Interior Ministry has consistently been that they need to have a job in Thailand with work permit. If things were as you suggest, retirees with a Thai wife would also be eligible to apply without having a job in Thailand which is certainly not the case. There is no need to take my word for this.  Anyone who is hopeful of applying on the basis of either having a Thai wife but no job in Thailand or believes they might qualify under Section 11.1 (but have no job in Thailand) should go to Special Branch and get an opinion.

 

You may have been lucky in your experiences of running a company but I can tell you that the Revenue Department showed up at my house unannounced only last week to inspect one of the (active) companies that has its registered address at my home.  This is not the first time this has happened. However, I would certainly not want to put off anyone who wants to have a shot at setting up a 'man of straw' company in order to employ themselves and become eligible for citizenship. I just pointed out some of the potential challenges of which I have first hand experience.  It is best for them to understand what they are getting into, so that they can make an informed decision and I wish them the very best of luck.  In any event, as you pointed out earlier, you didn't need your company or a job with a work permit to apply to get citizenship, since you applied under Section 9 on the basis of having a Thai husband.       

[yankee99]

Me and my wife went to chonburi provincial police station to get a feel for what to expect when submitting my documents. I had some questions about school documents and point calculations on salary. Although the officer was helpful he had no information to share. He handed the standard thai requirement form but had no idea about the process.

 

The wife asked him if he has done this in the past with foreigners. "yes but none have past". I think submitting in chonburi would be a waste of time but i may be wrong.  

 

My wife has called 1111 half a dozen times and they are helpful but appear limited in answers to whats available on their computer screen. Finally one of the operators at 1111 gave us a phone number to a person in the know and he suggested moving ti BKK lol. I know this has been covered here and i will move my yellow book soon.

Edited July 25, 2017 by yankee99

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, yankee99 said:

Me and my wife went to chonburi provincial police station to get a feel for what to expect when submitting my documents. I had some questions about school documents and point calculations on salary. Although the officer was helpful he had no information to share. He handed the standard thai requirement form but had no idea about the process.

 

The wife asked him if he has done this in the past with foreigners. "yes but none have past". I think submitting in chonburi would be a waste of time but i may be wrong.  

 

My wife has called 1111 half a dozen times and they are helpful but appear limited in answers to whats available on their computer screen. Finally one of the operators at 1111 gave us a phone number to a person in the know and he suggested moving ti BKK lol. I know this has been covered here and i will move my yellow book soon.

 

 

Certainly there have been some Chonburi addresses, as well as Phuket, in the lists of people approved for nationality in recent years but, if you are getting a negative attitude from current officials there and have the ability to move to Bkk, that would be the sensible thing to do.  No one wants their application sitting around for years only to be rejected because of a mistake by police or perhaps wait for years and hear nothing at all.   You also need SB to be proactive in pushing your file through the various vetting departments that may never to return the file without repeated prodding from SB.      

[yankee99]

Can someone provide me with the wording for the affidavit of intent to renounce citizenship? 

[Arkady]

33 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Can someone provide me with the wording for the affidavit of intent to renounce citizenship? 

I would check with SB if they have some standard wording that applicants are expected to follow these days.  If not, something along the lines of I do solemnly swear that I intend to renounce my blank citizenship after I have been approved for and obtained Thai citizenship.  It may depend on your embassy, as some have their own style and wording for affidavits and statutory declarations. I heard that the Kiwi embassy will only provide a letter saying that Kiwis are prevented from surrendering their Kiwi citizenship by law.  Not sure if that one does the trick but it would be interesting to see the reaction, if that really is the case.

[Arkady]

A post that was not pertinent to the discussion and threatened to take it in an unproductive direction has been deleted. We want to keep it productive for those trying to figure out the mechanics of applying for citizenship, rather than challenge the basis and rules under which applicants have to apply. That can be done elsewhere.

[yankee99]

3 hours ago, Arkady said:

I would check with SB if they have some standard wording that applicants are expected to follow these days.  If not, something along the lines of I do solemnly swear that I intend to renounce my blank citizenship after I have been approved for and obtained Thai citizenship.  It may depend on your embassy, as some have their own style and wording for affidavits and statutory declarations. I heard that the Kiwi embassy will only provide a letter saying that Kiwis are prevented from surrendering their Kiwi citizenship by law.  Not sure if that one does the trick but it would be interesting to see the reaction, if that really is the case.

My embassy emailed a blank affidavit so i can use whatever wording i want.   I think the best course of action is  to fill it out and have SB look before i pay to have it notarized.