Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[MrPatrickThai]

2 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

Probably no one will notice but, if they do they would what with Thai bureaucracy being what it is......

 

Misspelling of your name in official documents is another matter altogether though.  I had to go to the Labour Ministry to correct the spelling of my name in Thai on my WP because they had decided to insert a "mai ek" where there shouldn't have been one.  SB told me about a Korean guy who had different Thai spellings of his name in his various Thai documents, including PR documents, which he had never noticed.  When they told him to go around different govt departments to correct the spellings, he was so traumatised that he never came back again, thus proving that he lacked the ability to accept Thainness with all its warts and was unworthy for citizenship. LOL.         

Then surely he could go to the charity, temple whatever and get them to write a new receipt. 

[Arkady]

23 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Then surely he could go to the charity, temple whatever and get them to write a new receipt. 

 

It may be worth the effort for peace of mind. In my case, I had a lot of receipts going back 12 years, so it would have made no difference if a few were rejected.  Some charities will be helpful. Others not. Some are very flexible.  I had a Thai colleague who liked to boast that he reduced his income tax liability every year by buying receipts from charities at 10% of face value up to the maximum tax deduction he could claim.  I didn't think that was something to be particularly proud of but I am afraid many Thai (and foreign) charities are rotten to the core and that this is extremely common in Thailand.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

I'm applying with a 4.6 year old PR, I have Thai spouse and children. Anyone knows if I will be required to sing? My initial understanding is that in order to be an applicant under PR you need 5+ years of PR, but I have a doubt and I can't find where I read that. Which of PR and marriage category wins in my case?

[ubonjoe]

8 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Which of PR and marriage category wins in my case?

Marriage

[THAIJAMES]

9 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I'm applying with a 4.6 year old PR, I have Thai spouse and children. Anyone knows if I will be required to sing? My initial understanding is that in order to be an applicant under PR you need 5+ years of PR, but I have a doubt and I can't find where I read that. Which of PR and marriage category wins in my case?

You will get additional points if you have 5 years PR. so best to wait only a few months.  

Has evidence of civil registration showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years and has Certificate of Residence or Alien Registration Certificate for at least 5 years – 10 points

 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

35 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

You will get additional points if you have 5 years PR. so best to wait only a few months.  

Has evidence of civil registration showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years and has Certificate of Residence or Alien Registration Certificate for at least 5 years – 10 points

 

Yes I know this, but since by calculation I can be over 50 points without, and marriage is known to be an easier route, I decided to save 10 months and apply. In the worst case, PR with 5+ years will be my Plan B.    

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I'm applying with a 4.6 year old PR, I have Thai spouse and children. Anyone knows if I will be required to sing? My initial understanding is that in order to be an applicant under PR you need 5+ years of PR, but I have a doubt and I can't find where I read that. Which of PR and marriage category wins in my case?

If you apply on the basis of PR, you will be required to sing, regardless of Thai spouse.  If you apply on the basis of marriage to a Thai, you will get exemption from singing but, if you get divorced or your wife passes away during the application process, or simply fails to attend the MoI interview with you for whatever reason, you may be deemed ineligible, regardless of your PR status.  You have to decide which route you want to take and make this clear to SB, so that they reference the correct sections of the Nationality Act in your covering letter to the MoI.   The reason I was nearly rejected and had my file knocked back to SB was that I applied on the basis of PR but they tried to get me exemption from singing, against my wishes, by referencing the section in the Act for males married to Thais.  They thought that this was OK, even though I had not been married for 3 years because I had PR but didn't call the MoI to check first because they don't talk much.  I was not the only applicant that got snagged by this error.  SB are really nice people and want you to succeed but you have to be a bit wary of them making their own interpretations without any corroboration from the MoI  (also things can change at the MoI with new people in charge).  At the end of the day they are police and sometimes they seem to want to make some short cuts that get applications out of the door fast and make applicants happy for a while.         

[GabbaGabbaHey]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

You have to decide which route you want to take and make this clear to SB, so that they reference the correct sections of the Nationality Act in your covering letter to the MoI.   

Thanks Arkady. I'll make sure to clarify this at my next visit to SB. Is the covering letter something I'll be able to read and check?

[Arkady]

No, you won't be able to check the covering letter before they send it but they will give a copy as confirmation that they have forwarded your application to the MoI.  Sometimes you have to push them to give you a copy which you must get because you will need it as a reference, if you try to follow up your application later with the MoI.  Since you won't see the letter before it goes, you just need to ensure that you and SB are on the same page at the point they actually finalise your application form. 

 

The letter mainly comprises bureaucratic ramblings and references to various sections of the Nationality Act.  Somewhere in there it will also say that you have satisfied all the requirements to apply for citizenship. 

       

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Thanks again Arkady. This is really useful, as usual. 

[ThaiCitizen]

On 6/6/2017 at 3:48 PM, Arkady said:

 

It may be worth the effort for peace of mind. In my case, I had a lot of receipts going back 12 years, so it would have made no difference if a few were rejected.  Some charities will be helpful. Others not. Some are very flexible.  I had a Thai colleague who liked to boast that he reduced his income tax liability every year by buying receipts from charities at 10% of face value up to the maximum tax deduction he could claim.  I didn't think that was something to be particularly proud of but I am afraid many Thai (and foreign) charities are rotten to the core and that this is extremely common in Thailand.

I decided to get the charity to write a new letter, one less worry!

I’ve now got all the important documents together, just got to photocopy WP, passports, Tabien Baans etc. Btw, do I have to sign every page for my WP, Passport, Degree, Tabien Baan.

What about the back of the photos?

The latest is that I don’t submit to the woman at the amphur but in fact to a Santibaan station, out of the centre of town in Khon Kaen.

[Arkady]

You need to sign every photocopied page you submit.  No need to write anything on the backs of the photographs though. 

[MrPatrickThai]

On 6/9/2017 at 0:33 AM, Arkady said:

You need to sign every photocopied page you submit.  No need to write anything on the backs of the photographs though. 

Do I need to copy every page of my Work Permit. I heard only the pages with something on them, is this correct information? 5 copies, right?

[MrPatrickThai]

Sorry, one more question. At my work they only have a colour photocopier. I assume that colour are better than black and white?

[Arkady]

You need to exercise some judgement about what pages to copy.  A WP is such a small book that I copied every page.  Some pages may have nothing entered in them but show something by default, e.g. that you have no second job entered into your WP. On the other hand I didn't copy blank visa pages in my passport. The tabien baan has many pages to add folk to your household.  There is no need to copy those blank pages, as it seems standard practice in government departments to just submit the page with the details of the house and the pages with details of residents.  If you have an alien book, there are also a lot of pages for adding various details and no need to copy all of these.  A residence book is like a passport and has pages to stamp visas in it.  Same thing applies to this as to passports. 

 

The guidelines don't specify colour, which means you can submit either B&W or colour copies.

[onthemoon]

Funny thing though, I use the e-channel and don't get Thai stamps in my passport any more, or stamps in the residence book. I wonder why they need copies of the stamped pages at all. But hey, it's no big deal.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

Funny thing though, I use the e-channel and don't get Thai stamps in my passport any more, or stamps in the residence book. I wonder why they need copies of the stamped pages at all. But hey, it's no big deal.

Nevertheless, they will probably want to see your re-entry visas and endorsements. I seem to remember they needed to know the last date of entry into Thailand and here I travelled from for some reason.  If you have no entry stamps, better prepare that info when you are ready to finalise the application, just in case.  

[onthemoon]

Immigration as the entry data in their computer, but I guess the SB and  MOI may not have access to that info yet - I'll keep the tickets and boarding passes.

[jayboy]

On 05/06/2017 at 5:45 PM, Arkady said:

 

I think there is a place for lawyers and other agents in certain cases, e.g. as Garry said, for those who are not confident enough in their Thai to deal with officials and don't have a Thai wife or secretary who is willing to do it for them.  Some officials, e.g. SB,  don't seem to mind dealing with lawyers and agents.  Others detest them.  When I had my interview with the NIA agent at McD there was a farang guy waiting with a very pushy female lawyer who butted into our interview to ask when he would be ready for them and wanted to know why they had to meet at McD's.  He was totally incensed and started fuming to us about how much he hated dealing with lawyers who he thought were totally unnecessary for this and just ripped applicants off.  He told the lawyer that the reason he had invited us all to McD's was that he thought it was much more convenient for applicants to get to than the NIA office which is somewhere in Dusit and that he had no budget to invite applicants anywhere finer.  A very reasonable response I thought. 

 

In the PR thread, if you go back a few years to before the military government came to power, you will find instances where applicants were told by lawyers during the big freeze when hardly anyone was approved for 6 years that a special quota had come available for applicants in the queue who were willing to pay a special unreceipted fee of B200,000 to Immigration officers via the lawyers, of course.  After a few weeks a number of other people, who had not used lawyers, received their approval letters without being asked for the special fee.   It was pretty obvious that lawyers had been given a heads up that the approvals were coming through which they used as a lever to squeeze cash out of their clients for something they would have got anyway by just sitting pat but how were they to know?  It was clear that the clients were cheated by the lawyers but unclear whether they shared the 'squeeze' with any officials in exchange for the advance warning, or whether they pocketed all for themselves.  Most likely the former I would guess.  Of course, it would have been unwise for the applicants that got scammed in this way to file a complaint with the police that they had paid bribes that turned out to be unnecessary.   That would have been like complaining that one had cooperated with the writer of a Nigerian letter in an attempt to defraud the government but got one's bank account cleaned out by scammers instead.   

 

I haven't heard of similar scams taking place with citizenship applications but the first announcement of a long list of citizenship approvals after the 2014 coup made it very clear that the names were being released publicly before the applicants were contacted directly to prevent unscrupulous officials or agents from using the advance information to charge applicants unfair and unnecessary fees.  It seemed pretty obvious that the Minister , Gen Anuphong, had some information about people operating the same scam with citizenship applicants and wanted to stamp it out, at least under his watch. 

 

So, if you do choose to use a lawyer, please bear this lesson in mind. 

This is all good advice though my experience is only with PR.I would add one point namely that if you do decide to use a lawyer pay close attention to reputation and track record.Treat with distrust firms that pitch exclusively to farang clients.Do careful due diligence.If special payments are demanded, end all dealings.If there is any suggestion of corrupt practice, end all dealings.Don't work on a payment by results basis.A good secretary as Arkady notes can be very effective.In practice a decent immigration lawyer has staff (usually female) who do most of the paper work and scurrying around.But it's important to have that figure of knowledge and integrity in the background.

[Arkady]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

This is all good advice though my experience is only with PR.I would add one point namely that if you do decide to use a lawyer pay close attention to reputation and track record.Treat with distrust firms that pitch exclusively to farang clients.Do careful due diligence.If special payments are demanded, end all dealings.If there is any suggestion of corrupt practice, end all dealings.Don't work on a payment by results basis.A good secretary as Arkady notes can be very effective.In practice a decent immigration lawyer has staff (usually female) who do most of the paper work and scurrying around.But it's important to have that figure of knowledge and integrity in the background.

Absolutely.  In the past there were a couple of law firms advertising their services for citizenship applications online, claiming they could somehow get clients on some sort of a fast track.  Apart from that, it sounded very odd because the ads talked about applying to Immigration.  I imagine it is or was a scam to get people to pay a big upfront package claiming that a big chunk of it (probably unreceipted and in cash) was for bribes - then Sayonara.  Due diligence is definitely needed, if you decide to deal with one of these firms.  Some of the ones advertising as law firms may not have any lawyers at all.  Even if they do, the Thai law society seems to have extremely loose ethical standards and I have never heard of a Thai lawyer being struck off.    

[Big Guns]

I appear to be the only person on this thread that doesn't speak Thai and the only one that has used a lawyer. I have a very demanding job as does my wife and the lawyer has managed the process for us extremely well. My recommendation is do whatever works best for your own personal circumstances. I'm just waiting for the announcement in the Royal Gazette. My wife seems to think there have been no notices about citizenship for a couple of months in the RG. Maybe the next one will be a big batch, fingers crossed.

[balo]

10 hours ago, Big Guns said:

I appear to be the only person on this thread that doesn't speak Thai

Can you really become a citizen without speaking Thai ? 

 

[Big Guns]

If you have enough points you can. I just know a few words, I can't string a sentence together.

[Arkady]

19 hours ago, balo said:

Can you really become a citizen without speaking Thai ? 

 

 

I don't think that SB and the MoI are keen to advertise this fact but Section 11.4 of the Nationality Act (amended thus in 2008) provides foreign males with Thai wives exemption from Section 10.5 which is the section requiring knowledge of the Thai language (and from 10.4 which requires 5 years' residence in the Kingdom [with PR].  Thus, having grating it may be to them (and they have my sympathy on this particular issue), there are actually no legal grounds for reject applicants with Thai spouses who can't speak Thai.  (Initially they they tried to keep quiet about the right to apply without PR, following the 2008 amendments, and it is still not mentioned in the MoI's guidelines but people found out about it and started applying.) 

 

Anyone applying without a Thai spouse applying on the basis of PR will get legitimately knocked back for not being able to speak (or more usually sing) Thai at all.  At any rate they have to be interviewed alone at Lamlukka and would be unable to answer any of the panel's questions.   

[greenchair]

I was granted citizenship a couple of weeks ago. 

I already got my name in the tabien baan and have my thai id card. 

But I keep seeing something about getting a Thai citizenship certificate. 

Am I missing doing something? ??

Have I completed the process with my id card???

[GarryP]

14 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I was granted citizenship a couple of weeks ago. 

I already got my name in the tabien baan and have my thai id card. 

But I keep seeing something about getting a Thai citizenship certificate. 

Am I missing doing something? ??

Have I completed the process with my id card???

Congratulations. 

 

I have a certificate and needed to present the same to get on the tabien baan and get my ID card. I am not sure whether the process is the same for foreign men and women.  I had heard about getting a formal copy of the Royal Gazette, which could be framed. However, apparently they stopped doing that .  

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

Congratulations. 

 

I have a certificate and needed to present the same to get on the tabien baan and get my ID card. I am not sure whether the process is the same for foreign men and women.  I had heard about getting a formal copy of the Royal Gazette, which could be framed. However, apparently they stopped doing that .  

 

I got a bound copy of the edition of the Royal Gazette my announcement appeared in and a colour photocopy of the letter signed by HMK but those took several months and a number of follow up calls to SB.  I was about to give up on them when they called me to pick them up.  I think they said they didn't give them to everyone (presumably not to anyone that didn't ask for them and follow up persistently) and they wouldn't be given out in future.  But it's always worth asking, if you are interested in obtaining those nice documents to close your file with.  The people in my district office told me that they had seen several examples of the letters signed by HMK in the hands of people coming for their first ID cards.  

 

Re naturalisation certificate.  This is an important document that you may be asked for a copy of on a number of occasions in future.  An example would be at the Land Department when you go to buy land.  Although some naturalised Thais have not been asked for this, I have been asked for it in two different land offices.  Like many things in government offices, policy may vary from  place to place.  If you lose it or pour coffee on it, you can obtain a duplicate from SB for 1,000 baht.   

[sas_cars]

 
I got a bound copy of the edition of the Royal Gazette my announcement appeared in and a colour photocopy of the letter signed by HMK but those took several months and a number of follow up calls to SB.  I was about to give up on them when they called me to pick them up.  I think they said they didn't give them to everyone (presumably not to anyone that didn't ask for them and follow up persistently) and they wouldn't be given out in future.  But it's always worth asking, if you are interested in obtaining those nice documents to close your file with.  The people in my district office told me that they had seen several examples of the letters signed by HMK in the hands of people coming for their first ID cards.  
 
Re naturalisation certificate.  This is an important document that you may be asked for a copy of on a number of occasions in future.  An example would be at the Land Department when you go to buy land.  Although some naturalised Thais have not been asked for this, I have been asked for it in two different land offices.  Like many things in government offices, policy may vary from  place to place.  If you lose it or pour coffee on it, you can obtain a duplicate from SB for 1,000 baht.   

I guess you were asked of the certificate due to more of the curiosity of the official in question due to your foreign looks. I don't think it's an offical requirement for naturalized thais to produce this letter.

[GarryP]

49 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

I got a bound copy of the edition of the Royal Gazette my announcement appeared in and a colour photocopy of the letter signed by HMK but those took several months and a number of follow up calls to SB.  I was about to give up on them when they called me to pick them up.  I think they said they didn't give them to everyone (presumably not to anyone that didn't ask for them and follow up persistently) and they wouldn't be given out in future.  But it's always worth asking, if you are interested in obtaining those nice documents to close your file with.  The people in my district office told me that they had seen several examples of the letters signed by HMK in the hands of people coming for their first ID cards.  

 

Re naturalisation certificate.  This is an important document that you may be asked for a copy of on a number of occasions in future.  An example would be at the Land Department when you go to buy land.  Although some naturalised Thais have not been asked for this, I have been asked for it in two different land offices.  Like many things in government offices, policy may vary from  place to place.  If you lose it or pour coffee on it, you can obtain a duplicate from SB for 1,000 baht.   

After I heard you got a bound copy of the announcement, I followed up with SB several times about one for me immediately after getting my naturalization certificate. The first couple of times they said the MOI was still preparing them, but on my subsequent calls and visits was told that they are no longer given out so I gave up.

 

It is good to know you can obtain a duplicate certificate from SB.  

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

I got a bound copy of the edition of the Royal Gazette my announcement appeared in and a colour photocopy of the letter signed by HMK but those took several months and a number of follow up calls to SB.  I was about to give up on them when they called me to pick them up.  I think they said they didn't give them to everyone (presumably not to anyone that didn't ask for them and follow up persistently) and they wouldn't be given out in future.  But it's always worth asking, if you are interested in obtaining those nice documents to close your file with.  The people in my district office told me that they had seen several examples of the letters signed by HMK in the hands of people coming for their first ID cards.  

 

Re naturalisation certificate.  This is an important document that you may be asked for a copy of on a number of occasions in future.  An example would be at the Land Department when you go to buy land.  Although some naturalised Thais have not been asked for this, I have been asked for it in two different land offices.  Like many things in government offices, policy may vary from  place to place.  If you lose it or pour coffee on it, you can obtain a duplicate from SB for 1,000 baht.   

Where do I get the naturalization certificate? ?