Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Hi everyone. So far I had the language test at SB and the knowledge test (upstairs). Next is my appointment with NIA which is already scheduled. Can someone confirm how many more interviews there will be in the process before MOI's big final panel interview? Is BOPA/DORA interview the MOI interview?

[MrPatrickThai]

23 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It think it has to be with your application. Shown here on the list of requirements.

 

No, they never asked for this. I'm sending the remaining documents by post today. They were 2"x 2" photos of my wife and kids. Translation of a letter from a charity I donated to, new letter from my bank and work. 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

No, they never asked for this. I'm sending the remaining documents by post today. They were 2"x 2" photos of my wife and kids. Translation of a letter from a charity I donated to, new letter from my bank and work. 

Probably because it's part of the set of letters that you'll get after signing the application (in my case two of them were addressed to my embassy, asking for the certification of my passport, my blank criminal record and the letter of intention).

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Hi everyone. So far I had the language test at SB and the knowledge test (upstairs). Next is my appointment with NIA which is already scheduled. Can someone confirm how many more interviews there will be in the process before MOI's big final panel interview? Is BOPA/DORA interview the MOI interview?

 

All going well you should just have the panel interview to go.  It is organised by the Minorities and Nationality Section which is a part of the Bureau of Registration Administration (BORA) which is a part of the Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) which is a part of the Ministry of the Interior (MOI).  So they are all one and the same. 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

5 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

All going well you should just have the panel interview to go.  It is organised by the Minorities and Nationality Section which is a part of the Bureau of Registration Administration (BORA) which is a part of the Department of Provincial Administration (DOPA) which is a part of the Ministry of the Interior (MOI).  So they are all one and the same. 

I'm glad to hear that, thank you Arkady! And did you hear what's the current average time between NIA interview and MOI interview regarding recent applicants?

[Big Guns]

For me it was a 2 year gap between NIA & MOI. I didn't have a language test  I most certainly would have failed. My wife was great at translating during NIA & MOI

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Out of curiosity, at which step is it be possible to change job and company (let's assume with WP continuity) without having to inform SB or have to provide copies of the new WP? is it only after the MOI interview or after SB has sent the application and the cover letter to MOI?

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Out of curiosity, at which step is it be possible to change job and company (let's assume with WP continuity) without having to inform SB or have to provide copies of the new WP? is it only after the MOI interview or after SB has sent the application and the cover letter to MOI?

 

As far as I am aware the answer to this question would be after SB has sent the application and cover letter to the MOI.  I don't think there would be any need to update SB in this case but the MOI might routinely check your WP just before you go for interview, as they did mine.  If you have changed job with WP continuity since you applied, there should not be a problem.  But better check with SB, if you are planning a job move, in case things have changed.

[BKKBike09]

On 13/09/2017 at 10:35 AM, NewlyMintedThai said:

You must be one of the 100+ announced yesterday. Congratulations, and well done!



http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2560/E/223/14.PDF


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

The percentage of Chinese applicants (or perhaps more correctly I should say applicants with Chinese names) is astonishing. Looks like 80-90%. Although it's heartening to see that Muhammed Ali also snuck in there.

 

I keep thinking about applying for nationality. Applied for PR in 2008 and got that in 2012. In fact, while my PR application was meandering along, Immigration actually suggested to me that I should change tack and just apply for nationality. It's only the renouncing of citizenship that concerns me, particularly now that there's ever more computerisation of records. The UK's not the problem: it's if an immigration officer spots that you're leaving for a country for which you'd need a visa, as a Thai, yet don't have one. Since Caucasian dudes with a Thai passport are still - and likely will be for many years to come - a rare sight at the airport, greater scrutiny might be expected. Sure, the e-gate system usually removes that scrutiny, but it would be the rare occasion when the system is down and your passport gets processed manually that would worry me. Doubtless nothing would happen but if it did ... as we all know, the wheels of Thai bureaucracy turn slowly, but that's not to say that they don't turn. I suspect at the moment that the unofficial policy is 'turn a blind eye' as far as dual nationality is concerned.  

 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

It's only the renouncing of citizenship that concerns me,

You only have to do a statement that you intend to renounce your citizenship. You don't actually have to do it.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Is there anything special to know about the NIA interview (duration, topics covered, how this is run) or things one should review to better prepare for it?  I know I have to bring my original documents and attend with my wife, but that's all I know. Any guidance will be welcome.

[BKKBike09]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You only have to do a statement that you intend to renounce your citizenship. You don't actually have to do it.

 

I'm sure you're right and that I'm suffering from "farangyouthinktoomuch-itis" ... However, I've been reading some of the informative TV threads on the whole subject of dual nationality (and thanks to you and Arkady in particular for the many informative posts - this being a good thread https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/883404-is-dual-citizenship-in-thailand-allowed) 

 

I also did a bit of quick searching in Thai and came across aJuly 2014 Q&A post on the web board of the Office of International Peoples’ Rights Protection at the Office of the Attorney General (there's a mouthful - let's say OIPRP), in which a Thai bloke marrying a Lao woman asked about dual nationality and mentioned that he’d heard the law was going to change and wouldn’t allow for Thais to hold two nationalities. I’ve cut out the bits about the marriage and the basic gist of what’s left is the OIPRP stated that, as long as the foreign country doesn’t prohibit two nationalities, it is permissible for a Thai to acquire a second nationality and keep the Thai one too.

http://www.humanrights.ago.go.th/forum/index.php?topic=6735.0

 

However, I also see that the Nationality Act BE2508, referenced by OIPRP, also specifically grants the Minister of Interior power to revoke the Thai nationality of anyone who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that “there is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality” – see Article 19 (2).

 

Thai original here: https://mis.dopa.go.th/dopalaw/law_file/603_030320171110929758.03.pdf

Translation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEaFRnOVpERmYzMTg/view

 

So I guess that it all still comes back down to a) not getting caught using two passports and/or relying upon how a particular official feels if you do get caught?

 

[Big Guns]

36 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Is there anything special to know about the NIA interview (duration, topics covered, how this is run) or things one should review to better prepare for it?  I know I have to bring my original documents and attend with my wife, but that's all I know. Any guidance will be welcome.

 

Prepare to introduce yourself and cover how long you have been in Thailand, what you do for a living and why you want to be a Thai national. Remember that your wife can translate for you and you don't really have to be able to speak very much Thai. Dress smartly and remember that if you create a positive impression you can't really fail. Be prepared for what at first sight is quite an intimidating setting with you and your partner facing a 'u shaped' table setting of about 20 or so officials with microphones asking you questions. The duration of mine was only 5 or 10 minutes and if I knew what I have just written then I would have been a lot calmer.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

12 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

So I guess that it all still comes back down to a) not getting caught using two passports and/or relying upon how a particular official feels if you do get caught?

 

This has been discussed heavily in the whole thread. I also added questions to which the experimented members have answered on each points. I think you should read the past posts especially if you're interested in applying, you'll already have most of the answers.

[Aditi Sharma]

4 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

 

why you want to be a Thai national. 

What is the best answer to this q. do u remember what u said?

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Is there anything special to know about the NIA interview (duration, topics covered, how this is run) or things one should review to better prepare for it?  I know I have to bring my original documents and attend with my wife, but that's all I know. Any guidance will be welcome.

 

My interview mainly comprised of verifying information already submitted.  Expect questions about your job, your family, your house or apartment & etc.  I got quizzed about the ownership of my house and date of acquisition but no request to see chanote or other documents.  It seemed that this line of questioning was directed at verifying the validity of my relationship with Mrs Arkady, who by then had taken over ownership of the house from my company.  In fact it made no difference to my application whether I was married or not because I applied on the basis of PR but, if they are provided with information, they want to check it.  
   

[Big Guns]

27 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

What is the best answer to this q. do u remember what u said?

 

Obviously this is going to be a very personal answer. I mentioned the things I love such as my wife, my job, the environment I live in, food, friendly people etc.

[NewlyMintedThai]

If you are an applicant who has to sing, I’d recommend you also know the meaning of the songs line by line and be able to explain it in Thai.  They asked me the meaning of a couple lines of the Royal Anthem.

Edited October 2, 2017 by NewlyMintedThai
Spelling

[Arkady]

32 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

 

Prepare to introduce yourself and cover how long you have been in Thailand, what you do for a living and why you want to be a Thai national. Remember that your wife can translate for you and you don't really have to be able to speak very much Thai. Dress smartly and remember that if you create a positive impression you can't really fail. Be prepared for what at first sight is quite an intimidating setting with you and your partner facing a 'u shaped' table setting of about 20 or so officials with microphones asking you questions. The duration of mine was only 5 or 10 minutes and if I knew what I have just written then I would have been a lot calmer.

 

That is correct for the MOI interview but he asked about the NIA interview which in recent years has taken place quite informally at McDonalds, Ratchprasong.  The NIA officers very decently hold the interviews there because it is easy to get to on public transport, while their own office is in an inconvenient location for most people.  They have no budget to entertain applicants at a finer venue.  They previously used McD's Victory Monument branch which is easier for their office but decided Ratchprasong would be better for most applicants.  Before that they actually used to show up unannounced at your home and/or office but I was told they no longer have the resources assigned for that level of scrutiny.    

[Arkady]

4 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

 

Obviously this is going to be a very personal answer. I mentioned the things I love such as my wife, my job, the environment I live in, food, friendly people etc.

 

Mentioning your wife and family is particularly relevant, if you have a Thai wife and apply on the basis of marriage. Of course, there are many ways to skin a cat but, if you go back through this thread you will see that applicants have been briefed by SB in the past to say that, since they have decided to spend the rest of their live in Thailand, they would like to enjoy full rights of Thai citizens.  Now the the constitution specifies obligations of Thai citizens, it would be cool to mention that you are willing to accept these too but better find out what they are first.  The answer to the Q about renunciation of citizenship, if it comes up, is pretty much the same, i.e. since you have decided to spend the rest of your life here, it is more useful to have the citizenship of the country you live in and enjoy full rights etc.

  

[GabbaGabbaHey]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

That is correct for the MOI interview but he asked about the NIA interview which in recent years has taken place quite informally at McDonalds, Ratchprasong.  The NIA officers very decently hold the interviews there because it is easy to get to on public transport, while their own office is in an inconvenient location for most people.  

The location I got is at (or close to?) the Ministry of Education, which is on Ratchadamnoen Nok road. I can see on NIA website that their head office is in that area too. I have to double check.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

The location I got is at (or close to?) the Ministry of Education, which is on Ratchadamnoen Nok road. I can see on NIA website that their head office is in that area too. I have to double check.

 

Pity but there is really no reason why they should not expect applicants to go to their office. 

 

The interview I had a McD's Ratchprasong branch was quite surreal because the red shirts were occupying Ratchprasong and McD's seemed to be the resting place for well heeled, fashionable red shirts with designer jeans, Cartier watches and iPads.  The BTS was the only way in and out and there wasn't much other reason to be there.   

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

The percentage of Chinese applicants (or perhaps more correctly I should say applicants with Chinese names) is astonishing. Looks like 80-90%. Although it's heartening to see that Muhammed Ali also snuck in there.

 

I keep thinking about applying for nationality. Applied for PR in 2008 and got that in 2012. In fact, while my PR application was meandering along, Immigration actually suggested to me that I should change tack and just apply for nationality. It's only the renouncing of citizenship that concerns me, particularly now that there's ever more computerisation of records. The UK's not the problem: it's if an immigration officer spots that you're leaving for a country for which you'd need a visa, as a Thai, yet don't have one. Since Caucasian dudes with a Thai passport are still - and likely will be for many years to come - a rare sight at the airport, greater scrutiny might be expected. Sure, the e-gate system usually removes that scrutiny, but it would be the rare occasion when the system is down and your passport gets processed manually that would worry me. Doubtless nothing would happen but if it did ... as we all know, the wheels of Thai bureaucracy turn slowly, but that's not to say that they don't turn. I suspect at the moment that the unofficial policy is 'turn a blind eye' as far as dual nationality is concerned.  

 

 

The system does go down and this happened to me on the way to the UK.  The officer just stamped my passport without looking through it, smiled and wished me a pleasant trip. Meanwhile, Mrs Arkady, who is Thai only and elected to go through the priority channel for business class travellers which has no electronic gates , was receiving the third degree from a female officer, who was combing through her passport and demanding to know the reason for her trip, whom she was travelling with (I was nowhere to be seen) and other details that were none of the officer's g'damned business.  There is no guarantee you would not encounter a hostile officer like Mrs A did but it is wise to eschew the manual priority channel and chose the electronic gates, if they are working.  I have also encountered the situation a few times that the shoddy finger print recognition system (someone must have cleaned up on this project) installed at the e-gates doesn't recognise my prints and been forced to go through a manual gate but only en route to an ASEAN country or coming back from somewhere, when they never look for visas.  

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

I'm sure you're right and that I'm suffering from "farangyouthinktoomuch-itis" ... However, I've been reading some of the informative TV threads on the whole subject of dual nationality (and thanks to you and Arkady in particular for the many informative posts - this being a good thread https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/883404-is-dual-citizenship-in-thailand-allowed) 

 

I also did a bit of quick searching in Thai and came across aJuly 2014 Q&A post on the web board of the Office of International Peoples’ Rights Protection at the Office of the Attorney General (there's a mouthful - let's say OIPRP), in which a Thai bloke marrying a Lao woman asked about dual nationality and mentioned that he’d heard the law was going to change and wouldn’t allow for Thais to hold two nationalities. I’ve cut out the bits about the marriage and the basic gist of what’s left is the OIPRP stated that, as long as the foreign country doesn’t prohibit two nationalities, it is permissible for a Thai to acquire a second nationality and keep the Thai one too.

http://www.humanrights.ago.go.th/forum/index.php?topic=6735.0

 

However, I also see that the Nationality Act BE2508, referenced by OIPRP, also specifically grants the Minister of Interior power to revoke the Thai nationality of anyone who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that “there is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality” – see Article 19 (2).

 

Thai original here: https://mis.dopa.go.th/dopalaw/law_file/603_030320171110929758.03.pdf

Translation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEaFRnOVpERmYzMTg/view

 

So I guess that it all still comes back down to a) not getting caught using two passports and/or relying upon how a particular official feels if you do get caught?

 

 

I  removed the Thai quote, since Thai, along with other non-English languages, is not allowed on TV.  This might sound silly as we are in Thailand but TV needs to protect itself from charges of LM, defamation and crimes under the Computer Crimes Act.  Not all mods can read Thai and one of us might just delete the entire post to be safe, if it were left up.  Mods, who can read Thai, do use their discretion to leave individual words and short passages in Thai in threads like this one, where they are useful.  In fact links to Thai websites are not normally permitted either but I have left the link up, so that members can still read the passage for themselves. 

 

Regarding the content, the comment is from 4 July 2014, just 12 days after the Yingluck government was toppled.  At the time I didn't hear that a new Nationality Act was being considered to amend the 1965 Act and tighten it up against dual nationality.  At any rate it seems very unlikely that the Yingluck government was really considering such an amendment at the time of the coup, given the multiple nationalities of her brother and some of his cronies, not to mention Yingluck's own potential future need for additionial nationalities, which she was probably conscious of during her premiership and which has now come to fruition.  The 2017 constitution requires a process of public hearings for new acts of parliament. I haven't heard of this taking place re the Nationality Act under the current government and have done a quick search in Thai but the only recent legislative activity I can find to do with the Nationality Act is a ministerial decree in June 2017 regarding stateless applicants.  Of course, it is possible that the government would use a Royal Decree to sweep aside the 52 year-old Act and enact a new one, bypassing the need for public hearings, as it recently did with the working of aliens laws, but it has not made any noises to the effect it feels there are serious problems with the Nationality Act that require such a drastic approach.  The last time this sort of thing happened was in 1971 when the military rulers amended the Nationality Act by revolutionary decree to cancel the jus soli right to Thai nationality of anyone born within the Kingdom without a Thai father.  However, that was motivated by the 250,000 Indochinese refugees in camps along the borders who were producing children that were automatically Thai under the unamended Act.  Since nationality is a sensitive issue to many Thais and there is no crisis of similar proportions today, I very much doubt the Prayut government would attempt to bypass the public hearings process, if they decided to amend the Nationality Act.

 

Of course the 1965 Nationality Act, which has already been amended several times, will be amended again and ultimately replaced outright one day and there is no guarantee that it will not become more hostile towards dual nationality. There are those in the Interior Ministry who hate the idea of dual and they can always play the national security card.   However, for as long as the 2017 Constitution lasts, it is going to be an obstacle to radical amendment on this issue.  For Section 39 of the Constitution stipulates, "Revocation of Thai nationality from anyone who is Thai from birth shall be prohibited."  That would exclude the vast majority of Thai duals from new legislation because most are Thai from birth and acquire other nationalities through naturalisation or through birth to one Thai parent and one foreign parent.  Framing new legislation to target only the tiny number of duals that acquire dual nationality either through naturalisation as Thai or through birth in Thailand to two aliens parents with PR would hardly be worth the effort, since it would exclude the people like Thaksin and Yingluck et al that may indeed be considered by some as national security threats.  Anyway, depriving them of Thai nationality would nullify even half-hearted attempts to extradite them and may be seen as a way for the government to let itself off that particular hook.    

 

As you have pointed out the Act does have provisions allowing the minister to revoke nationality from naturalised Thais and Thais born in the Kingdom to two alien parents under certain somewhat vague circumstances.  Revocations have to be announced in the Royal Gazette which can give an idea of how the Act has been applied on this issue in the past.  There have been a number of cases revocation of Thai nationality from people who got through birth in the Kingdom to alien parents, mainly for remaining in China for more than 5 years.  Most of these cases took place quite some time ago but there were also a precious few in the last 15 years.   There have also been some cases of those who were Thai due to birth in the Kingdom and those who had adopted their husbands'  Thai nationality losing their Thai nationality after being found guilty of serious offences like drug smuggling in Thai and foreign courts (Thai courts have the right to order the revocation of Thai nationality from people convicted of serious crimes who are not Thai from birth).   But I have never been able to find even one case in the Royal Gazette of a naturalised Thai getting his nationality revoked.  That is not to say it may never happen of course.  

 

Re Immigration  Most officers are utterly ignorant of the Nationality Act and the Constitution and are far too lazy to read up on them.  Many tend to carry a notion around in their heads that dual nationality is immoral and must therefore illegal for anyone.  So some of them like to harass people who appear to have two passports, either because they lack a visa in their Thai passports or, more commonly, because they present on entry with a completely blank Thai passport obtained at a Thai consulate abroad.   Anyone unlucky enough to find themselves in that situation is likely to be harassed or intimidated but there is scant record of Immigration ever having taken any further action.  They like to demand to see the other passport, if you are exiting without a visa and give you a lecture based on their own ignorant understanding of the Nationality Act or try to force those with blank Thai passports to enter on foreign passports with transit visas.  Generally they have no knowledge of the intricacies of the Act or that it creates different classes of Thais in this respect, depending on how they obtained Thai nationality.  Of course, this could all change but that seems to be the current state of play, in my understanding for what that's worth.       

 

Apart from the Revolutionary Decree of 1971 that put an end to automatic jus soli,  it may be worth looking at other previous initiatives to amend the 1965 Act to restrict dual nationality in some way or other.  The revolutionary decree created a serious problem for children born in Thailand to a Thai mother and a foreign parent who were no longer entitled to Thai nationality by jus soli.  Some were not entitled to their father's nationality either, e.g. children of Brits who were themselves born abroad, and were stateless, despite being born in Thailand to a Thai mother.  Since children born anywhere in the world to a Thai father and a foreign mother were automatically Thai this was seen as grossly unfair to Thai women and their half foreign children.  The Anand government addressed this through the Nationality Act of 9 February 1992, which amended the 1965 Act, but the amended the Act to allow Thai nationality to pass through mothers as well as father but in  the amended Section 14 of the Act only permitted look krung children to retain another nationality in addition to Thai until they were 20.  It put them under an obligation to either declare renunciation of their foreign nationality or be deemed to have automatically renounced their Thai nationality on their 21st birthdays.  Strangely enough this amendment was swiftly followed by another one less than two months later in the Nationality Act of 31 March 1992 which reworded Section 14 so as to give look krung merely the right but not the obligation to renounce their Thai nationality at the age of 20 without ramifications for those who retained their foreign nationality as well.  What caused the government to volte face on this aspect of a ground breaking amendment may best be left up to your imagination.  However, it is reasonable to assume that Khun Anand, who had signed the legislation personally, received a phone call suggesting that he had inadvertently trodden on the toes of someone rather important with a personal interest in this issue and that it might be in his best interests to fix it rapidly.  I have attached translations of the two 1992 Nationality Acts for interest.   

 

Who can say whether such sensitivities relating to specific legislation to restrict dual nationality still exist today or not?  At any rate the drafters of the 2017 Constitution have pre-empted any further serious attempts to do this for as long as their draft lasts and it is quite likely that the same wording will re-appear in successive constitutions, since Thai constitution drafters prefer not to reinvent the wheel and tend to favour the cut and paste approach.  It is my personal belief that the Interior Ministry mandarins got hot under the collar about the 2008 amendment to the Act which allowed males with Thai wives to apply for citizenship without first obtaining PR.  This might have induced visions of hordes of tatooed Pattaya lager louts suddenly getting Thai ID cards, even after the draft bill was tightened up to require applicants with Thai wives to be working in the Kingdom.  They must have thought long and hard about what they could do to deal with this imminent threat and how they could reduce the flow, taking into the account past known sensitivities about restricting duality. The declaration of intent, announced in 2009, is probably a measure that came out of such a thought process.  In fact the work requirement has effectively excluded the hordes of foreign retirees married to Thai women, who would have been eligible under the original bill.  The declaration also puts a lot of people off from applying and in the case of Indians and Chinese who account for a combined majority of applicants, the letter to their embassies is effective because both countries have specific clauses in their nationality laws prohibiting dual nationality.     

                         

 

Thai Nationality Act (2) 1992 EN.pdf

Thai Nationality Act (3) 1992 EN.pdf

[Arkady]

9 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

The percentage of Chinese applicants (or perhaps more correctly I should say applicants with Chinese names) is astonishing. Looks like 80-90%. Although it's heartening to see that Muhammed Ali also snuck in there.

 

I keep thinking about applying for nationality. Applied for PR in 2008 and got that in 2012. In fact, while my PR application was meandering along, Immigration actually suggested to me that I should change tack and just apply for nationality. It's only the renouncing of citizenship that concerns me, particularly now that there's ever more computerisation of records. The UK's not the problem: it's if an immigration officer spots that you're leaving for a country for which you'd need a visa, as a Thai, yet don't have one. Since Caucasian dudes with a Thai passport are still - and likely will be for many years to come - a rare sight at the airport, greater scrutiny might be expected. Sure, the e-gate system usually removes that scrutiny, but it would be the rare occasion when the system is down and your passport gets processed manually that would worry me. Doubtless nothing would happen but if it did ... as we all know, the wheels of Thai bureaucracy turn slowly, but that's not to say that they don't turn. I suspect at the moment that the unofficial policy is 'turn a blind eye' as far as dual nationality is concerned.  

 

 

It's great to see that the "Greatest" is also on the latest list.  Most of the Chinese names are mainland Chinese but there are also quite a few Taiwanese applicants.  They have an advantage in that their government is supportive of dual nationality of Taiwanese from birth (witness the huge community of them in the US) but strictly forces applicants for naturalisation to renounce citizenship in advance, resulting in a lot of stateless Vietnamese and  Chinese wives who get divorced by their husbands before their Taiwanese citizenship comes through. There may be some Singaporeans and Malaysians with Chinese names too but most of those are reluctant to give up their existing nationalities which is unavoidable for them. 

 

Farangs with Thai passports no longer seem to excite much interest from Immigration officers these days.  

[aidenai]

First of all, thank you very much for your extensive posts in regards to dual nationality, Arkady.

 

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

They like to demand to see the other passport, if you are exiting without a visa and give you a lecture based on their own ignorant understanding of the Nationality Act or try to force those with blank Thai passports to enter on foreign passports with transit visas.

 

And in this hides a huge danger as Section 19, article 2 of Nationality Act 2508 and amendments say the following.

 

Quote

 

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;
(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;
(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;
(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;
(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;
(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this Section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked, in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two. The Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, submit the matter to the King.

 

 

What's your take on this, Arkady? When travelling to the home country use the Thai passport with a home country visa or use the visa-less Thai passport and having the home country passport in your bag? Other members frequently reported doing the latter, though. However, I really don't know what's best.

Edited October 2, 2017 by aidenai

[GarryP]

When going abroad, it is the airlines duty to check that you have the correct papers to enter the destination country, whether that be a passport of that country or a visa. On top of that, it is my understanding that most embassies will not issue visas to their own nationals, even if they carry a passport of another country. As such, I have no option but to carry both passports when traveling  to my home country. I present both to the the airline check-in to show that I will be admitted to my home country. That passport then goes into my bag and I only show my Thai passport to Immigration.  I don't travel as often as others but so far I have not had any problems. 

 

On entering my home country, I use my passport for that country.   

[aidenai]

Thanks for your reply, GarryP.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, aidenai said:

First of all, thank you very much for your extensive posts in regards to dual nationality, Arkady.

 

And in this hides a huge danger as Section 19, article 2 of Nationality Act 2508 and amendments say the following.

What's your take on this, Arkady? When travelling to the home country use the Thai passport with a home country visa or use the visa-less Thai passport and having the home country passport in your bag? Other members frequently reported doing the latter, though. However, I really don't know what's best.

 

If you are really keen to avoid this issue, you can fly to the West via an ASEAN country, Hong Kong, Japan, Turkey, Jordan or Russia on separate tickets, so there is no likelihood of any unwelcome questions in the event of a manual immigration check.  

 

As Garry pointed out, many countries will not issue a visa to their nationals in a foreign passport. Funnily enough Thailand itself may be an exception. I remember seeing something on the website of a Thai embassy abroad explaining to Thai dual nationals how to apply for a Thai visa in their foreign passports to deceive the host country into believing they had renounced Thai nationality.  I have also seen details for Swiss nationals on applying for Schengen visas without hassle in their Thai passports at the Swiss embassy in Bangkok but I can't say if this is still the case.  The US will certainly never issue a visa to someone they know to have US citizenship.  When Thaksin was PM he applied for visas for himself and family to go to the US but his son was denied on the grounds that his birthplace was in the US, even though he had apparently never applied for a US passport which he was forced to do to go on the trip. The British make a distinction between having nationality and being in possession of a valid British passport.  That means that you can obtain a British visa in a foreign passport, if your British passport has expired or been cancelled.  You can also for a price obtain a Certificate of Entitlement that is in effect right of abode but, since the rules changed in1997 it is only valid for the life of the passport.  If you obtain one during the period you don't have a valid British passport, you will not be issued with a new British passport unless you cancel the COE.  I think other Schengen countries don't prohibit visas in foreign passports but I don't know if others have easy regulations for doing this like Switzerland has or had.  If you are a Brit, you can apply for a Schengen visa in another passport and go home via Europe but the Schengen visa is a hassle is not valid for more than 3 months.

 

 The provision states there should be evidence of still using a former nationality.  This is not specific and, as previously mentioned, there are no known cases in the RG of this happening under Section 19.2 alone.  The closest that can be found is a case of revocation of a British guy under the similar Section 17.2 only for those who are Thai through birth in the Kingdom in 2004 http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/0E/00142164.PDF.  This announcement specifies that the use of his British passport to enter the Kingdom was taken as evidence of his use of father's nationality.  No announcements of revocation can be found since 2005.  There was a spate of them during the Thaksin regime of the early 2000s, nearly all of which were under Section 17.1 and 17.2 or Section 18.  There are actually two announcements of revocation of naturalised Thais in that period.  One was under Section 19.1 and 19.2 for submitting false documents in the naturalisation application and for using former nationality in 2005 http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2548/00177221.PDF .  Another of a naturalised Thai in 2005 was under Section 19.3 and 19.4 for bad behaviour.  One case that might suggest why there has been an apparent reluctance to revoke nationality in recent years could be the case of revocation in 2005 of two individuals who were Thai through birth in the Kingdom for bad behaviour in the form of running an illegal lottery.   In 2016 the Interior Minister issued a terse statement in the RG to the effect that the Supreme Administrative Court had overturned the 2005 Interior Minister's decision to revoke the Thai citizenship of these two people http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2559/D/040/16.PDF  .   Obviously the past is no guarantee of the future and I am not yet sure exactly what changes the 2017 Constitution makes to the right to appeal to the Administrative Courts that were introduced in the 1997 Constitution and continued in the 2007 Constitution.  I remember some criticism of the draft of the new constitution for reducing access to the Administrative Courts.  Pessimists can also point to the revocations mentioned above under Sections 19.1/19.2 and 17.2 as being too close for comfort.   At the end of the day you have to make your own choice.  Use the solution suggested in para 1 which involves additional cost and inconvenience, voluntarily renounce one or t'other, wing it or avoid applying, if haven't already got it.  

[aidenai]

Thank you very much for your extensive reply, Arkady.