Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[yankee99]

26 minutes ago, qualtrough said:

The checklist from the Lumlukka Amphur has a specific line stating that passport and birth certificate must be authenticated by the MFA along with one copy of each.

 

So today I went down to the MFA there only to discover that first I need to get those translated and then have the embassy certify them in some way, and then bring them to the MFA.

 

I am not even sure if I have that right, nothing in writing.

 

At first I thought I need to get them translated, bring to the embassy for their approval (how?) and then bring to the MFA. But now I am wondering about that because how is the embassy going to verify that the Thai translation is correct? Or is it merely an embassy affidavit that they have seen those docs?

 

Anyone being able to clarify this procedure?

 

My head is done in today. Spent 7seven hours sitting in a taxi riding around town collecting various docs. I consider myself lucky that I was able to obtain most of what I needed.

On 8/24/2017 at 7:20 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

 

I never noticed a requirement for a birth certificate from special branch?

[qualtrough]

1 hour ago, yankee99 said:

I never noticed a requirement for a birth certificate from special branch?

No. This is to get a yellow tabian baan and pink ID card, which are on the SB checklist. Those come from the Amphur. The Amphur handed out a checklist and one of the requirements is the MFA approved copies of passport/birth certificate. The birth cert is really silly since you are presenting a passport, which in just about any country requires a birth certificate. No use in trying to get inside their heads. That way lies madness.

 

Hope someone knows the correct way to go about getting passport/birth cert MFA certified. The bit concerning the embassy's role is the main mystery.

Edited October 11, 2017 by qualtrough

[GabbaGabbaHey]

3 hours ago, qualtrough said:

This is to get a yellow tabian baan and pink ID card, which are on the SB checklist.

I don't think Pink ID card is on the list of requirements. I remember I showed it at SB on my first visit but they didn't ask for any copy.

[qualtrough]

1 hour ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I don't think Pink ID card is on the list of requirements. I remember I showed it at SB on my first visit but they didn't ask for any copy.

It's not, but the tabian baan for the applicant and his/her family is on the list I received last week.

[qualtrough]

OK, I did some research and I think I figured it out.

 

1. I need to take my passport and birth certificate down to the US embassy and get those 'Authenticated'. There is a form for that: DS-4194

2. I then need to have those officially translated by a translation outfit.

3. Then take all that to the MFA to get their authentication/authorization.

 

This is so I can apply for the Yellow Tabian Baan that I need to submit for the SB citizenship application. The need for MFA authentication was on the list of requirements for the Tabian Baan that I picked up at our Amphur. And the MFA stated that I need to get them authenticated and translated by the US embassy first.

 

Sound right?

 

EDIT:

 

Now I am really confused. Just read this on the US Embassy Thailand site:

 

U.S. Consular Officers are not Empowered to authenticate Public Documents Issued in the United States.  Such documents include vital records (birth, marriage, death and divorce), as well as academic, commercial, or other credentials.  Consular Officers do not have access to the records of the issuing office or the seal of the custodian of these records.

 

I have an notarized copy of my birth certificate and assume that should suffice, but what does the MFA want the US Embassy to do with my passport?? From the above it doesn't look like they are going to authenticate it.

Edited October 11, 2017 by qualtrough

[Big Guns]

There is a light at the end of the tunnel chaps. I'm going to special branch today with other new Thai citizens to attend a ceremony & collect my documents then apply for myThai ID card.

[qualtrough]

52 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

There is a light at the end of the tunnel chaps. I'm going to special branch today with other new Thai citizens to attend a ceremony & collect my documents then apply for myThai ID card.

Congratulations! How long was the process from start to finish?

[GabbaGabbaHey]

From the whole discussion, one can read successful applicants have been waiting from 18 months to 11 years. More recently, it seems to be down to 3-4 years for the lucky ones.

[Big Guns]

Keep patient throughout the process. Just tried to get ID card & will have to come back to BKK again. Despite having docs showing Im Thai still need work permit, passport & marriage registration. Still more pointless questions such as where did i  stay when I 1st came to Thailand & where did i meet my wife ?? Its all a test of true Thainess ?

[GarryP]

4 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

Keep patient throughout the process. Just tried to get ID card & will have to come back to BKK again. Despite having docs showing Im Thai still need work permit, passport & marriage registration. Still more pointless questions such as where did i  stay when I 1st came to Thailand & where did i meet my wife ?? Its all a test of true Thainess ?

Sorry to hear about the hoops they are making you jump through. I did not have any of those problems. I did not have to present my work permit which in any case is no longer valid as you are Thai now. Perhaps they have not handled many before so are running on guesswork.

[Arkady]

27 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

Keep patient throughout the process. Just tried to get ID card & will have to come back to BKK again. Despite having docs showing Im Thai still need work permit, passport & marriage registration. Still more pointless questions such as where did i  stay when I 1st came to Thailand & where did i meet my wife ?? Its all a test of true Thainess ?

 

The problem seems to be there is no standard procedure for district offices to do this and many are paranoid about issuing an ID card wrongly, even though they may well accept bribes to issue them to Chinese and Nepalis etc who have not gone through the process.  It should be simple enough for them to check with BORA of which they are a part or look in the RG but would be too easy.  Several people have been given a hard time by district offices and some have even hinted they wanted a bribe to do the job. 

 

I was also irritated by being asked for my work permit when I had already been Thai for a month but when I told them the HR had taken it to change the name of the company (even though I told them I was already Thai LOL), they said they didn't really need it and turned out to be very pleasant and friendly.  They were just trying to cover themselves because BORA has failed to give them any guidelines.

 

The main is that, even though you may have to grit your teeth a bit going through the final hoop, there is nothing they can do to avoid issuing you with a brand new tabien baan and ID card. Just think about that moment when you will get your missus to take a photo of you holding up your ID card at the district office.  

[greenchair]

3 hours ago, Big Guns said:

Keep patient throughout the process. Just tried to get ID card & will have to come back to BKK again. Despite having docs showing Im Thai still need work permit, passport & marriage registration. Still more pointless questions such as where did i  stay when I 1st came to Thailand & where did i meet my wife ?? Its all a test of true Thainess ?

For me getting the id was harder than getting the citizenship. 

And I had to have my passport translated, which I didn't even need to do to get citizenship because they used the translation of my birth certificate. 

I had about 4 trips to the umpur. 

 

[khongaeng]

On 10/11/2017 at 10:51 PM, qualtrough said:

OK, I did some research and I think I figured it out.

 

1. I need to take my passport and birth certificate down to the US embassy and get those 'Authenticated'. There is a form for that: DS-4194

2. I then need to have those officially translated by a translation outfit.

3. Then take all that to the MFA to get their authentication/authorization.

 

This is so I can apply for the Yellow Tabian Baan that I need to submit for the SB citizenship application. The need for MFA authentication was on the list of requirements for the Tabian Baan that I picked up at our Amphur. And the MFA stated that I need to get them authenticated and translated by the US embassy first.

 

Sound right?

 

EDIT:

 

Now I am really confused. Just read this on the US Embassy Thailand site:

 

U.S. Consular Officers are not Empowered to authenticate Public Documents Issued in the United States.  Such documents include vital records (birth, marriage, death and divorce), as well as academic, commercial, or other credentials.  Consular Officers do not have access to the records of the issuing office or the seal of the custodian of these records.

 

I have an notarized copy of my birth certificate and assume that should suffice, but what does the MFA want the US Embassy to do with my passport?? From the above it doesn't look like they are going to authenticate it.

Wow, when I got my name added to the Yellow Book, it was not anywhere this hassle.  It was in another Province, but the only MFA document I had was my marriage certificate.  

 

The funny thing about the US Embassy from what I have heard is that you can fill out a generic affadavit saying that you graduated from university on so and so day, or that you have no criminal record, or that you like to wear pink underwear... and they will sign it and stamp it (embossed) for a flat rate of 50 USD per page (make sure to make an appointment before your visit on the Embassy homepage).  The especially strange part about it is that the Thai authorities generally accept such documentation as official without question.  

 

Someone I know was actually tempted to put all of their information on one affidavit, to save cost, but ended up splitting it separately.  

 

I hope that this is not breaking any forum rules, I sincerely apologize if it is because my intention is not to do so, but to save you (and others) hours of getting the right document and translating.  I have uploaded the affidavits submitted to the US embassy, and the translations.  These affidavits and the one for marriage can be downloaded directly from the Embassy website.  Note to other nationalities, I doubt that your Embassy has the same protocol as the US Embassy.  Mine did not.  Special Branch accepted all of these documents without hesitation.  I'm not sure if that will always be the case, or if your local Amphur office will accept them.  For SB, none of these documents (and translations) required stamping by the MFA.  Like others on this forum, the submitter translated the documents himself and had them stamped by a friend (translating company).

 

In the end, as others have stated, it really depends on the Thai official  you are talking to what documents are required.  My experience with SB is that they are very helpful, so long as I don't show my frustration or start sounding like a nag.  It is extremely frustrating, but this exercise is excellent practice for our becoming Thais :-)

 

 

Letter of Intent - Thai.docx

Letter of Intent.docx

Passport Affidavit and Criminal Record - Thai.docx

Passport Affidavit and Criminal Record.pdf

Education Affidavit - Thai.docx

Education Affidavit.pdf

Edited October 13, 2017 by khongaeng

[JackThompson]

On 10/11/2017 at 10:51 PM, qualtrough said:

I have an notarized copy of my birth certificate and assume that should suffice, but what does the MFA want the US Embassy to do with my passport?? From the above it doesn't look like they are going to authenticate it.

On this particular point - I also believed it was impossible to do this at the US-Embassy based on the rules shown on their website.  But, during my marriage-docs process (some amphurs want this), a translator showed me a US-Embassy-Seal + MFA stamp on a copy of someone's US-Passport main-info page.  So, it appears it is indeed possible to get the US Embassy to certify a copy of the info-page of a passport.

Edited October 13, 2017 by JackThompson

[sas_cars]

On 13/10/2017 at 12:30 PM, JackThompson said:

On this particular point - I also believed it was impossible to do this at the US-Embassy based on the rules shown on their website.  But, during my marriage-docs process (some amphurs want this), a translator showed me a US-Embassy-Seal + MFA stamp on a copy of someone's US-Passport main-info page.  So, it appears it is indeed possible to get the US Embassy to certify a copy of the info-page of a passport.

Us embassy can only certify the info page of passport. All other documents can't be certified. Only affidavit way is available for them as per mentioned in detail above by a poster. 

[qualtrough]

On 10/13/2017 at 11:35 AM, khongaeng said:

 

 

Letter of Intent - Thai.docx

Letter of Intent.docx

Passport Affidavit and Criminal Record - Thai.docx

Passport Affidavit and Criminal Record.pdf

Education Affidavit - Thai.docx

Education Affidavit.pdf

Can I add all my diplomas to the education affidavit or do I need to spend 4 x $50 to have each one have an affidavit? (HS, BA, MA, PhD.)

 

Update: I can enter info in the English pdf form, but when I save and print the info isn't there. Am I doing something wrong??

 

P.S. Thank you so much for posting those, just what I needed.

Edited October 15, 2017 by qualtrough

[NewlyMintedThai]

I don’t think they care about your high school diploma.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[yankee99]

4 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

I don’t think they care about your high school diploma.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

I think only the top degree is needed. I dont think the points can be added together 

[onthemoon]

I got my PhD in Thailand and the cert is in Thai language. So no translation is required. However, does the copy have to be certified by any authority, e.g. Ministry of Education?

[MrPatrickThai]

Well, after sending the required documents as asked by SB, then they said they were all OK, and waiting for them to come up with a date, they called me today and said to come in to submit the docs. Then they phoned back later, saying that the my points were only 47 and Id need to sing the royal songs to get the full points. I suggested to him that this wasn’t required anymore and I think I have enough points, being married to a Thai, been here 22 years etc. Then he phoned back saying that my degrees need verified at the  British embassy. 

I just about give up the whole process then but I said I’ve already bought ticket to go to Bangkok and want to come to the office to see them. He didn’t seem to like this idea and started saying that my Thai was not very clear. I said I want to hear it all face to face and see how many points I can get.(I’m really hoping to chnge offiers or speak to the boss) I thought I could get 10 points for my age -50, 15 points for income(married to a Thai), 15 points for living in Thailand for over 20 years. 15 points, or even 10 for Thai language. Also 5 points for personality(he said 4) and knowledge of Thailand, at least 5. This, without the education qualifications is at least 60. Am I missing something?

If I need to get my degrees certified this means sending them to the UK, which could take weeks and then I’d need to update the other stuff like bank letters etc.

He said he wouldn’t give me the points for the Thai knowledge - is this done after submitting the docs, or do you get tested at the same time?

Sigh, maybe I should learn the songs tonight.

Any advice very welcome.

[GarryP]

7 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Well, after sending the required documents as asked by SB, then they said they were all OK, and waiting for them to come up with a date, they called me today and said to come in to submit the docs. Then they phoned back later, saying that the my points were only 47 and Id need to sing the royal songs to get the full points. I suggested to him that this wasn’t required anymore and I think I have enough points, being married to a Thai, been here 22 years etc. Then he phoned back saying that my degrees need verified at the  British embassy. 

I just about give up the whole process then but I said I’ve already bought ticket to go to Bangkok and want to come to the office to see them. He didn’t seem to like this idea and started saying that my Thai was not very clear. I said I want to hear it all face to face and see how many points I can get.(I’m really hoping to chnge offiers or speak to the boss) I thought I could get 10 points for my age -50, 15 points for income(married to a Thai), 15 points for living in Thailand for over 20 years. 15 points, or even 10 for Thai language. Also 5 points for personality(he said 4) and knowledge of Thailand, at least 5. This, without the education qualifications is at least 60. Am I missing something?

If I need to get my degrees certified this means sending them to the UK, which could take weeks and then I’d need to update the other stuff like bank letters etc.

He said he wouldn’t give me the points for the Thai knowledge - is this done after submitting the docs, or do you get tested at the same time?

Sigh, maybe I should learn the songs tonight.

Any advice very welcome.

I was tested when I submitted all my documents. I did not have PR, nor a degree, nor scored maximum on language (I am fluently only in spoken Thai), but I still managed to scrape through without going the national and royal anthem route. I believe 50 years old is the last year for maximum age points so you need to get everything submitted before your next birthday if you really are on the border. 

[Arkady]

20 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I got my PhD in Thailand and the cert is in Thai language. So no translation is required. However, does the copy have to be certified by any authority, e.g. Ministry of Education?

No need to get educational certificates certified by issuing institution.  Just sign the copy to certify a true copy as usual.  Don't go giving them ideas!

[GabbaGabbaHey]

52 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

 I think I have enough points, being married to a Thai, been here 22 years etc.  [...]  I thought I could get 15 points for living in Thailand for over 20 years.

Be aware that the points for presence in Thailand require some time spent under PR mostly (10 years of PR=20pts, 7 years of PR=15pts, 5 years of PR=10pts, without PR I don't remember maybe you can get 5pts for some criteria but I forgot which - yellow tabian perhaps). Although I have been living in Thailand for 18 years, I scored zero for the presence because I was just 4.x years under PR when I applied. 

 

 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Well, after sending the required documents as asked by SB, then they said they were all OK, and waiting for them to come up with a date, they called me today and said to come in to submit the docs. Then they phoned back later, saying that the my points were only 47 and Id need to sing the royal songs to get the full points. I suggested to him that this wasn’t required anymore and I think I have enough points, being married to a Thai, been here 22 years etc. Then he phoned back saying that my degrees need verified at the  British embassy. 

I just about give up the whole process then but I said I’ve already bought ticket to go to Bangkok and want to come to the office to see them. He didn’t seem to like this idea and started saying that my Thai was not very clear. I said I want to hear it all face to face and see how many points I can get.(I’m really hoping to chnge offiers or speak to the boss) I thought I could get 10 points for my age -50, 15 points for income(married to a Thai), 15 points for living in Thailand for over 20 years. 15 points, or even 10 for Thai language. Also 5 points for personality(he said 4) and knowledge of Thailand, at least 5. This, without the education qualifications is at least 60. Am I missing something?

If I need to get my degrees certified this means sending them to the UK, which could take weeks and then I’d need to update the other stuff like bank letters etc.

He said he wouldn’t give me the points for the Thai knowledge - is this done after submitting the docs, or do you get tested at the same time?

Sigh, maybe I should learn the songs tonight.

Any advice very welcome.

 

This sounds very frustrating and you have my sympathy but remember that nearly everyone gets at least one totally unexpected curved ball during the process.  I got two from SB and another one that came very close to derailing my application two and a half years later from the MOI.  I think the important thing you have missed is in estimating your points for domicile in Thailand at 15, whereas you are only eligible for a maximum of 5 points without permanent residence, if you have had a tabien baan for over 5 years.

 

Only 3 of the 7 categories for points allocation are entirely objective: age, income and education.  Knowledge of Thai language and personality are totally subjective and up to the discretion of SB.  Knowledge of Thailand depends on how good your knowledge and your understanding of the questions really is plus, in most cases, how much the SB officer either helps you and/or lets you cheat by having your wife translate the questions for you, wink at you, nudge you or kick you under the table.  Domicile should be entirely objective and in many cases this is the case but in some cases it can depend on SB's discretion in how they calculate domicile which seems to vary over time.   That means that SB has a lot of input in determining your points total.  I would take a step back and not try to argue with them.  My guess is that, if you go along with what they say and go to see them with a positive attitude, you will be able to get over 50 points without problem.  Agree to learn the songs and do the best you can.  Actually they are only worth 2 points, so there is something wrong with their arithmetic but don't bother to point that out to them.  If you don't have time to learn them off by heart, tell them you haven't had time, as this was unexpected, and ask if you can use a script.  They let me use a script and gave me full points for the songs, albeit warning that I would need to have them off by heart by the time of the MOI interview. 

 

Re domicile,  Unless you have permanent residence the maximum points you can get for this is 5 for living in the Kingdom for at least 5 years with a tabien baan.  If you have not had a tabien baan for at leas 5 years you are not entitled to any points.  The reason I say this is partly discretionary is that SB has been known to interpret the rules as not considering a yellow tabien baan as qualifying even for the 5 points which would mean no points at all for anyone without PR, even though this is clearly wrong.  Also some people got through in the past with less than 5 years' PR (and no Thai spouse), since SB counted their time on NON-B visas towards the 5 years,  which was also clearly wrong in the other direction.

 

Re Thai language.  You can only get the full 15 points if you do the reading and writing tests as well as sing the two songs.  

 

Re: Certification of educational certificates by the embassy. This seems to be a new requirement which cannot be avoided but, as far as know they have not yet asked for certificates to be certified by the issuing institution. So there should be no need to get anything from the UK.

 

Best of luck.
 

 

 

     

[MrPatrickThai]

5 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Re: Certification of educational certificates by the embassy. This seems to be a new requirement which cannot be avoided but, as far as know they have not yet asked for certificates to be certified by the issuing institution. So there should be no need to get anything from the UK.

Thanks Arkady for all those points. Firstly, I'd like to a that the Embassy won't certify it but the degree needs sent to the UK using this form

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/630642/attachment_1.pdf

Unfortunately, my Post graduate diploma was done at a university, which doesn't seem to be on their list

[Arkady]

31 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Be aware that the points for presence in Thailand require some time spent under PR mostly (10 years of PR=20pts, 7 years of PR=15pts, 5 years of PR=10pts, without PR I don't remember maybe you can get 5pts for some criteria but I forgot which - yellow tabian perhaps). Although I have been living in Thailand for 18 years, I scored zero for the presence because I was just 4.x years under PR when I applied. 

 

 

 

They were very strict in assessing my points for domicile.  Eventually I got the maximum 20 points for over 10 years with PR but they didn't just accept my PR documents and tabien baan for that, even though the dates of first issue were very clearly stated in my alien book and residence certificate. They forced me to verify that my first tabien baan had really been issued at around the same time and because I had moved since then I was made to run around to the amphur that issued my original tabien baan and get them to issue a document.  I had a copy of the original tabien baan but that wasn't enough.  Otherwise they were only going to count my points  from the date I moved to my current address.  I didn't even count this as one of my curved balls.  

[MrPatrickThai]

4 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

They were very strict in assessing my points for domicile.  Eventually I got the maximum 20 points for over 10 years with PR but they didn't just accept my PR documents and tabien baan for that, even though the dates of first issue were very clearly stated in my alien book and residence certificate. They forced me to verify that my first tabien baan had really been issued at around the same time and because I had moved since then I was made to run around to the amphur that issued my original tabien baan and get them to issue a document.  I had a copy of the original tabien baan but that wasn't enough.  Otherwise they were only going to count my points  from the date I moved to my current address.  I didn't even count this as one of my curved balls.  

Well, the guy did mention that I've just moved my tabien bahn to Bangkok. 

I'll take your advice and just play along with them and go with a positive attitude, and learn the songs and the king's full name. 

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks Arkady for all those points. Firstly, I'd like to a that the Embassy won't certify it but the degree needs sent to the UK using this form

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/630642/attachment_1.pdf

Unfortunately, my Post graduate diploma was done at a university, which doesn't seem to be on their list

In recent posts here, Americans have said their embassy, which has not been able to certify educational certificates for a long long time, was willing to witness affidavits that the details in the certificates were true and correct which was accepted by SB as an embassy certification without the need to get anything from the US. It might be worth asking the British Embassy, if they can do the same.  It is quite likely that SB will still want an embassy certification, even if you get notarisations done by the issuing institutions, either by the British Embassy or by the Thai Embassy in London.  That was already happening to PR applicants years ago.         

[onthemoon]

5 hours ago, Arkady said:

No need to get educational certificates certified by issuing institution.  Just sign the copy to certify a true copy as usual.  Don't go giving them ideas!

Thanks!

[Big Guns]

Does anyone know exactly which documents the council need to give me a Thai ID card. They already have the Royal Gazette & my Thai citizenship document. I have round 2 with them next week. I might explode if I get asked for a load of stupid docs again. Last time requests included; where I stayed on holiday in Thailand in 2004, salary, university for masters, brothers name, wedding certificate, document for wife changing surname, passport & work permit. Alternatively anyone I can call to give them guidance.