Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I'm confused. The Special Branch have my translated degrees, just done in a shop, didn't go to the MOFA. They said I needed them verified at the UK embassy.  

 

The British embassy have photocopied them and on the back written, "This is a true copy made by me............" and signed by the Pro Consul(Thai name).

Am I correct in thinking the MOFA will not verify the English letter of true copy, so I need it translated, as well as the name, Mananya Thongnual into Thai script. 

I guess I need to get the degree translated again too?

 

If I go to the MOFA, I assume they have a translation shop than can translate in an hour or so. Would you recommend I get them translated before going to save time?

 

This is not a verification.  It is merely a certified copy which is guaranteed to be a true copy of the original but does not certify that the original is a genuine document.  However, I think most Thai government departments accept this type of certification because it is done by an embassy , even though it is, of course, meaningless. 

 

Personally, I would get the whole thing including the embassy's certification translated by the same translation company for MoFA notarisation.  I don't think they will notarise the vice-consul's signature without a translation of the document on the front of it as well the certification on the back done by the same translator.  They will bind up the translation with the certified photocopy and seal the corner to make it difficult insert pages.  So it stands to reason they will not want the translations piece meal.   

 

There are a couple of private translation shops on the ground floor of the MoFA consular building.  I don't know if they can do the work in an hour because there is always a huge scrum of people in that building and they probably have sizeable queues.  It might be worthwhile to use them though because they can easily resubmit translations that have been rejected.  You could leave the whole job with them and ask them to get the notarisation done too for an exra fee but it will probably take a few days. Translation agencies in town offer the notarisation service too.  An odd aspect when I last got notarisations done was that they interviewed you for the express one day notarisation service to make sure you were not a translation agency messenger, as they wanted to reserve the express service for members of the public doing it for themselves. That meant that translation agencies were unable to do the whole job, including notarisation, quickly for customers.  They may have changed this system by now.     

[aidenai]

On 31/10/2017 at 8:27 PM, GarryP said:

You are a Thai now so they are not going to kick you out for overstaying your visa. 

 

I had my visa cancelled at the one stop service center. I had to do it there as my previous extension was obtained there.

SB hasn't set any regulations in relation to cancelling the extension of stay the naturalised person had at the moment of naturalisation. However, Section 19 paragraph 2 of the Nationality Act states 'There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality' which could be a reason for revoking Thai Citizenship. Therefore, I cancelled my extension of stay the moment I got my Thai ID card. It has to be said that the Immigration Officers didn't really know what to do with it as the 'Immigration handbooks' does not describe the procedures in such a case. Several calls with HQ has been made. I didn't get any stamps or receipts in my foreign passport. Anyways, in the computer database record of Immigration is noted that I cancelled my extension of stay. Copies of my ID, naturalisation document and Royal Gazette announcement have been submitted and noted in the database record. However, this is only one part of the story as the person who cancelled the extension of stay, me, has still not formally exited the Kingdom. The Head of the Immigration Office told me that an Immigration Officer at the border might or could be able to cross-link the foreign and Thai passports and stressed that I should take all my naturalisation documents with me when making a trip abroad. This should prevent any issues in regards to 'overstaying' of the naturalised person a.k.a. the foreigner.

Edited November 2, 2017 by aidenai

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, aidenai said:

SB hasn't set any regulations in relation to cancelling the extension of stay the naturalised person had at the moment of naturalisation. However, Section 19 paragraph 2 of the Nationality Act states 'There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality' which could be a reason for revoking Thai Citizenship. Therefore, I cancelled my extension of stay the moment I got my Thai ID card. It has to be said that the Immigration Officers didn't really know what to do with it as the 'Immigration handbooks' does not describe the procedures in such a case. Several calls with HQ has been made. I didn't get any stamps or receipts in my foreign passport. Anyways, in the computer database record of Immigration is noted that I cancelled my extension of stay. Copies of my ID, naturalisation document and Royal Gazette announcement have been submitted and noted in the database record. However, this is only one part of the story as the person who cancelled the extension of stay, me, has still not formally exited the Kingdom. The Head of the Immigration Office told me that an Immigration Officer at the border might or could be able to cross-link the foreign and Thai passports and stressed that I should take all my naturalisation documents with me when making a trip abroad. This should prevent any issues in regards to 'overstaying' of the naturalised person a.k.a. the foreigner.

 

This is clearly the safest approach but I sympathise with those who don't want to spend precious time getting it done.  Cancellng PR is a must but they know what to do in the CW PR section and it is very quick with no queue. You also get to know the staff in the PR section after years of annual endorsements and it is a fun visit, as they are very pleased to see you have become a citizen. The outer office is clearly a different matter though for those with other visas. 

 

I think that the risk of having Section 19.2 invoked for not cancelling your visa when there is no evidence that you received written instructions to do so is so negligible as to be virtually non-existent. You are not actively making use of your former nationality, unless you exit on the foreign passport or re-enter on it.  In addition, you might actually have already renounced your former nationality for all they knew.  They would need your cooperation to provide them with the evidence that you still had that passport and nationality.   Looking at the recent Administrative Court case where the  revocation of nationality of two people for offending public morals by running an underground lottery was overturned after 12 years must make officials think twice before initiating a revocation process for something so utterly trivial where there was no intent to use the former nationality. Running illegal gambling is a serious criminal offence and yet the ministry was unable to make its revocation order stick in the Admin Court, not that you ever want to have to sue in the court to get your citizenship back over a decade later. 

 

I believe that Immigration theoretically has the ability to match details of a foreign and Thai passport and has done this with manual checks.  But, since people have exited through the e-gates without cancelling their visas and no alarms went off, I suspect it is not foolproof and may not work in the e-gates.  I think the worst downside would that you might be hassled by Immigration for 5 or 10 minutes and possibly fined up to the maximum B20,000 fine.  If this happens to anyone, make sure you don't show them the foreign passport.  Just say it is with your embassy for processing of renunciation or something. 

 

I have never taken my naturalisation documents abroad with me and I think that is entirely unnecessary.  Immigration's system pulls up your ID card which is sufficient evidence for them that you are Thai and corroborates the legitimacy of your Thai passport far better than the naturalisation certificate which could be so easily forged.

[aidenai]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

This is clearly the safest approach but I sympathise with those who don't want to spend precious time getting it done. 

Thanks for your reply, Arkady. Concise as usual.

 

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

If this happens to anyone, make sure you don't show them the foreign passport. 

I would hope the IO is not alert on where you're travelling to and the necessity for a visa if applicable. 

[Arkady]

14 minutes ago, aidenai said:

I would hope the IO is not alert on where you're travelling to and the necessity for a visa if applicable. 

 

That is a whole different ball game. If you are travelling to one of those destinations and have concerns about that, it would be best to queue up at CW to cancel the visa and reduce your risk of causing a hiccup the e-gates to hiccup. Of course there is always the possibility that the e-gates are not working or that they just don't recognise your fingerprints at all.  I think they invested in rather second rate technology and gave the maintenance contract to TOT which doesn't provide any back-up or out of civil service hours service for a system that is supposed to work under heavy demand conditions 24/7. Duh.

[samran]

23 hours ago, greenchair said:

Thanks 

yeah, sorry to scare you. My wife and I didn't know that it was necessary but noted that someone before us, probably Arkady, had cancelled theirs, so I insisted on her doing it.

 

After spending 30 mins getting her Thai passport sorted at she then wondered over to the government complex and spent close to 6 hours having her extension of stay cancelled in her foreign passport. She now has a nice handwritten note in her foreign PP saying that the extension has been cancelled due to gaining Thai nationality via marriage to a Thai spouse.

 

Never needed any other documents when travelling. Everything works tickty-boo even crossing fairly remotish borders, including Hat Lek just last week.

[greenchair]

4 hours ago, samran said:

yeah, sorry to scare you. My wife and I didn't know that it was necessary but noted that someone before us, probably Arkady, had cancelled theirs, so I insisted on her doing it.

 

After spending 30 mins getting her Thai passport sorted at she then wondered over to the government complex and spent close to 6 hours having her extension of stay cancelled in her foreign passport. She now has a nice handwritten note in her foreign PP saying that the extension has been cancelled due to gaining Thai nationality via marriage to a Thai spouse.

 

Never needed any other documents when travelling. Everything works tickty-boo even crossing fairly remotish borders, including Hat Lek just last week.

Yes, but why would she show her old passport. Wouldn't she have a new thai passport to travel with. 

[samran]

31 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Yes, but why would she show her old passport. Wouldn't she have a new thai passport to travel with. 

Well when traveling overseas her western passport is useful so even though she goes through Thai immigration with the Thai passport I’ve read of times here on TV where immigration managed to cross reference Thai and foreign passports.

 

Not that it was a leading reason for us to cancel the visa, mainly just that i thought it was one of the required steps so she did it.  

 

 

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 11:37 PM, Arkady said:

It is possible that those who have just been naturalised might be treated more leniently since they are not supposed to close the loop by exiting on their foreign passports.  I would say that, if you have already left on your Thai passport and there was no problem, you can probably get away without cancelling the visa.  Anyway the fine maxes out at B20,000 at B200 a day which is 100 days of overstay and you can't be blacklisted or jailed for it.  If you have not yet left the country, it would probably be worth cancelling the visa which would avoid the risk of being fined. 

Arkady, quick question regarding this

I've heard that Thai children cannot be fined for overstay, any children actually. Do you know the age limit for this? I've heard 15 but some say it should be 18/20

 

Thanks

Michael

[MikeyIdea]

16 hours ago, samran said:

After spending 30 mins getting her Thai passport sorted at she then wondered over to the government complex and spent close to 6 hours having her extension of stay cancelled in her foreign passport. She now has a nice handwritten note in her foreign PP saying that the extension has been cancelled due to gaining Thai nationality via marriage to a Thai spouse.

Which section at Immigration did she go to? Something special about the process that made it take 6 hours? 15 year old Thai/British daughter of a friend of mine was denied leaving Thailand on her Thai passport without paying the fine because she originally entered Thailand on her British PP 12 years ago. The normal story: Born abroad, entered on foreign PP, cleared all Thai status but never cancelled extension of stay. I wonder if foreign and Thai PP Thai ID and one legal guardian (western father) would be enough, Thai mother more likely to want to sabotage than help

 

Thanks

Michael

[samran]

1 hour ago, MikeyIdea said:

Which section at Immigration did she go to? Something special about the process that made it take 6 hours? 15 year old Thai/British daughter of a friend of mine was denied leaving Thailand on her Thai passport without paying the fine because she originally entered Thailand on her British PP 12 years ago. The normal story: Born abroad, entered on foreign PP, cleared all Thai status but never cancelled extension of stay. I wonder if foreign and Thai PP Thai ID and one legal guardian (western father) would be enough, Thai mother more likely to want to sabotage than help

 

Thanks

Michael

Many a natural born dual citizen including yours truly have tried to have the visa in their foreign passport cancelled, all to no avail. It is clearly possible but they just don’t like doing it. 

[greenchair]

10 minutes ago, samran said:

Many a natural born dual citizen including yours truly have tried to have the visa in their foreign passport cancelled, all to no avail. It is clearly possible but they just don’t like doing it. 

So are you saying, no need to cancel the visa? ?

[samran]

4 minutes ago, greenchair said:

So are you saying, no need to cancel the visa? ?

Not at all. I’d errr on the side of safety and get it sorted. 

[MikeyIdea]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

So are you saying, no need to cancel the visa? ?

I now understand it as a Thai citizen with my friends daughters specific problem can't cancel her visa (extension of stay) and can never leave Thailand without paying a 20,000 baht overstay fine first
 

A bit weird that foreigners who become Thai citizens can cancel extensions of stay but Thai's who enter the wrong way cannot

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

2 hours ago, samran said:

Many a natural born dual citizen including yours truly have tried to have the visa in their foreign passport cancelled, all to no avail. It is clearly possible but they just don’t like doing it. 

Do you know if it is possible to pay the fine and clear the problem at immigration in the government complex and not at Suvarnabhumi when leaving the country?

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

Arkady, quick question regarding this

I've heard that Thai children cannot be fined for overstay, any children actually. Do you know the age limit for this? I've heard 15 but some say it should be 18/20

 

Thanks

Michael

Definitely the age is 15. See stamp in passport in this thread

 

Yes, it applies to minor children of any nationality.  If minor children of Thai nationality enter on foreign passports, Immigration will treat them as foreign nationals. What else could they be expected to do?   

 

I note from some threads in TV and elsewhere that Immigration announced it would impose a 1 year entry ban on minor children who overstay from March 2016 but I don't know if they have already done this.  Apparently too many people had been taking advantage of the lack of fines for their kids and not bothered to apply for proper visas for them. Immigration had enough of foreign parents taking the p1ss out of them.   
 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Arkady said:

I note from some threads in TV and elsewhere that Immigration announced it would impose a 1 year entry ban on minor children who overstay from March 2016 but I don't know if they have already done this. 

Those under the age of 18 are exempt from the overstay banning.

No reason though for a Thai national to overstay after entering on a foreign passport. The can get a one year extension at immigration of any type of entry. All that they need is proof the are Thai.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MikeyIdea said:

I now understand it as a Thai citizen with my friends daughters specific problem can't cancel her visa (extension of stay) and can never leave Thailand without paying a 20,000 baht overstay fine first
 

A bit weird that foreigners who become Thai citizens can cancel extensions of stay but Thai's who enter the wrong way cannot

 

 

You have to bear in mind that there are no specific provisions in the Nationality Act for dual nationality (except for Section 14 re the renunciation of Thai nationality by look krung) which is neither specifically prohibited or supported.  Thus Thais who have entered the Kingdom on foreign passports have chosen to enter as foreigners and need to close the loop on their foreign entries or face the consequences. It stands to reason there is no way for Thais by birth to cancel visas in foreign passports because the law expects them to enter on Thai passports and does not support their dual nationality.  

 

For someone who was naturalised as a Thai it is logical that there is a way to cancel the visa but the only established procedure to do this seems to be for permanent residents upgrading to citizenship, the traditional route to naturalisation. Naturalisation through a Thai wife has only been happening for less than 10 years, so it might take them a few more years to set up an easier and clear procedure for those applicants to cancel their visas.    

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MikeyIdea said:

Do you know if it is possible to pay the fine and clear the problem at immigration in the government complex and not at Suvarnabhumi when leaving the country?

 

There are old threads on this and they looked into this possibility and were advised not to try to do it at Immigration at CW as they are not set up for this and might cause trouble or just tell you to go to the airport, not to mention hours of queuing beforehand. Since the person is Thai anyway they are not at risk of randomly being picked up and arrested for overstaying, so there is no real reason to try to sort it out at Immigration.  They have a choice of either going through the e-gates with a Thai passport with a high probability that nothing will happen or fronting up with the foreign passport at a manned counter prepared to pay the fine.  Immigration at the airports deal with overstayers every day and can sort it out quickly without making you miss your flight.  Even I overstayed once in the late 80s and it only took about 10 minutes to receive a brief lecture and pay the fine.

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks Arkady, everything you write makes sense

 

-- Even I overstayed once in the late 80s  555

Confession time: I overstayed one day once in the early 90s :)

[Neeranam]

I've to get my birth certificate translated.

I've already got it legalized in England.

An agency recommended by the US embassy said they can do it, take it to MoFA for a couple of thousand baht. But then they also said that the MoFA can only legalize a document that has been stamped by the embassy in Thailand. Is this true?

Anyone done this?

Any advice, I don't want to waste a trip to Bangkok.

 

Also, do I need the apostille translated too?

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Neeranam

[Big Guns]

On the topic on cancellation of the visa for a naturalised Thai I've discovered that its not possible to get another person to go on your behalf. They cancelled the work permit without me having to attend. So unfortunately I will have to go in person. I will have missed the 90 day reporting but it seems ludicrous that I could get fined for that as I have a Thai ID card & passport.

[Arkady]

15 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I've to get my birth certificate translated.

I've already got it organized in England.

An agency recommend by US embassy said they can do it, take it to MoFA for a couple of thousand baht. But then they also said that the MoFA can only legalize a document that has been stamped by the embassy in Thailand. Is this true?

Anyone done this?

Any advice, I don't want to waste a trip to Bangkok.

 

Also, do I need the apostille translated too?

 

 

The translation shop is correct.  MoFA will not notarise a translation of a foreign document without a stamp from the Bangkok embassy of the issuing country.  I have never done this particular thing but what I think should work would this. Take the apostille to the British Embassy and ask them to make a certified copy of it, not forgetting to ask them for the Thai spelling of the consulate signatory's name (get this wrong and you guarantee yourself some more trips back and forth to CW - don't ask me how I know this) .  Get a translation made of the photocopy, including the certification on the back by the vice-consul.  Get the certified copy and the translation  notarised by MoFA, also asking them to verify the vice-consul's signature .  Job done (hopefully).

 

Yes, you will need a translation of the apostille (I wonder how they will translate 'apostille') and, no, it cannot be done without being in Bangkok.  MoFA will bind up the embassy certified copy with the translation.  You should be able to keep the original apostille without letting them bind that up too.   Unfortunately this is a process that doesn't lend itself to rushing.  MoFA prides itself on finding problems with translations and knocking them back, even though their staff are actually no better in written English than the average agency translators and will miss many glaring errors, particularly in Thai to English translations. So build in some extra time for this.  Alternatively you can pay the translation agency to handle the notarisation service themselves for a fee which may be a good idea, if you are out of town. That way they have to take responsibility for correcting errors and resubmitting the work to MoFA, if necessary.  

 

 

[Arkady]

10 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

On the topic on cancellation of the visa for a naturalised Thai I've discovered that its not possible to get another person to go on your behalf. They cancelled the work permit without me having to attend. So unfortunately I will have to go in person. I will have missed the 90 day reporting but it seems ludicrous that I could get fined for that as I have a Thai ID card & passport.

Well, if they do decide to fine you, I am pretty sure you would be able to recover it by suing them in the Administrative Court, although it might take a few years.  You could always try demanding to see the supervisor and threatening him with a lawsuit. 

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

The translation shop is correct.  MoFA will not notarise a translation of a foreign document without a stamp from the Bangkok embassy of the issuing country.  I have never done this particular thing but what I think should work would this. Take the apostille to the British Embassy and ask them to make a certified copy of it, not forgetting to ask them for the Thai spelling of the consulate signatory's name (get this wrong and you guarantee yourself some more trips back and forth to CW - don't ask me how I know this) .  Get a translation made of the photocopy, including the certification on the back by the vice-consul.  Get the certified copy and the translation  notarised by MoFA, also asking them to verify the vice-consul's signature .  Job done (hopefully).

 

Yes, you will need a translation of the apostille (I wonder how they will translate 'apostille') and, no, it cannot be done without being in Bangkok.  MoFA will bind up the embassy certified copy with the translation.  You should be able to keep the original apostille without letting them bind that up too.   Unfortunately this is a process that doesn't lend itself to rushing.  MoFA prides itself on finding problems with translations and knocking them back, even though their staff are actually no better in written English than the average agency translators and will miss many glaring errors, particularly in Thai to English translations. So build in some extra time for this.  Alternatively you can pay the translation agency to handle the notarisation service themselves for a fee which may be a good idea, if you are out of town. That way they have to take responsibility for correcting errors and resubmitting the work to MoFA, if necessary.  

 

 

Sigh, but thank you for the explanation.

So I need to get the birth certificate copied and certified and the apostille copied and certified. Then get them both translated.

I hope they can do this.

[MrPatrickThai]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

Yes, you will need a translation of the apostille (I wonder how they will translate 'apostille')

หมายเหตุ according to Longdo.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by MrPatrickThai

[Arkady]

48 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

หมายเหตุ according to Longdo.

 

หมายเหตุ means a note or comment which is the original meaning of apostille from the Latin 'post illa', meaning after those words. Marginal notes or glosses in medieval manuscripts are referred to as apostilles or apostils.  I think the apostille provision was a footnote to the treaty or something like that, so some learned international bureaucrat or lawyer coined the term 'Apostille' to feel superior and confuse people who have never had to read medieval manuscripts.   

 

The specific meaning of the type of apostille here is a certification of a public document according to the provisions of The Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents.  You should  explain that to the translation agency, as the translator will almost certainly have never heard of an apostille and may well just use the Longdo translation and set you up for rejection by the MoFA.  I think หนังสือรับรอง  or 'certificate' will do better. Although it does not convey the exact meaning, it is concise.  It would be best if the translator could call MoFA and ask if they have an acceptable translation, unless he has come across it before and knows for sure.   

[MrPatrickThai]

8 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Those under the age of 18 are exempt from the overstay banning.

No reason though for a Thai national to overstay after entering on a foreign passport. The can get a one year extension at immigration of any type of entry. All that they need is proof the are Thai.

Hence proving having two passports is not illegal!!

[MrPatrickThai]

2 hours ago, Arkady said:

หมายเหตุ means a note or comment which is the original meaning of apostille from the Latin 'post illa', meaning after those words. Marginal notes or glosses in medieval manuscripts are referred to as apostilles or apostils.  I think the apostille provision was a footnote to the treaty or something like that, so some learned international bureaucrat or lawyer coined the term 'Apostille' to feel superior and confuse people who have never had to read medieval manuscripts.   

 

The specific meaning of the type of apostille here is a certification of a public document according to the provisions of The Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents.  You should  explain that to the translation agency, as the translator will almost certainly have never heard of an apostille and may well just use the Longdo translation and set you up for rejection by the MoFA.  I think หนังสือรับรอง  or 'certificate' will do better. Although it does not convey the exact meaning, it is concise.  It would be best if the translator could call MoFA and ask if they have an acceptable translation, unless he has come across it before and knows for sure.   

Interesting Arkady. 

 

Actually, I realized that Longdo was wrong after thinking about it. The closest thing would be หนังสือรับรอง/ เอกสารรับรอง (ความถูกต้อง).

Thailand doesn't use Apostilles.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Interesting Arkady. 

 

Actually, I realized that Longdo was wrong after thinking about it. The closest thing would be หนังสือรับรอง/ เอกสารรับรอง (ความถูกต้อง).

Thailand doesn't use Apostilles.

Correct. Thailand is not a signatory of The Hague Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, nor does it have any law on public notaries or notarisation of documents.  Self certification of document copies is considered good enough and just as well too.