Religion, still the opium of the masses. Maybe you shouldn't ask is there a god, but why do I ask myself if there is a god.

Curiosity is imprinted in most animals, it is a key tool for survival, it is only logical that we should question the world in which we live.

If there is a divine being and he gave us wisdom in order to find out a universal truth, why do we use that intelligence to kill each other?

Human intelligence is an anomally, when we are all gone nature will return to it's normal state.

I thought Television and for some TV forum was the opiate of the masses?

I think people use religion in an attempt to finding meaning in life. If at the end of a struggle there is a hope of salvation and living comfortably eating ambrosia (rice pudding?) is the reward then for many that is sufficient.

To me religion is what brings out the best and worst in human nature. It can give us hope or it can be the bootheel underwhich we are ground. I don't know what the answer is, I can't prove the existance of a divine force anymore that anyone can prove it doesn't exist. Absence of evidence is not proof that something didn't happen.

All makes an interesting conversation and one that I look forward to continue. I am interested to see what biblican scholars such as Suegha have to say as the topic develops. I just hope it doesn't descend into a flame war as people start to put forward their beliefs on this thread. For many people with considered study it is something they are wary of discussing because it is too easy for a non believer to say "there's no proof that God exists therefore your belief structure is wrong".

I agree that you are correct in your statement that we should question the world in which we live, but we should question it with an open mind and heart to accept that there are things that we don't know, cannot understand, and will need to be accepted on faith.

CB

That's me on the left, 86.

Nice pinions there Jet, not so keen on harps though, unless played by guys like Junior Wells.

CB

You can't always get what you want. I asked for harps as in harmonicas. F** angel PX order boys.

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

Haven't read this book, but I believe the author to be another very brave muslim lady.

You can't always get what you want. I asked for harps as in harmonicas. F** angel PX order boys.

Good help is so hard to get these days.

In my heaven we get harmonicas

In my hel_l we get bagpipes

CB

Well, the last time I tried to post my system crashed, I wonder if that was divinely providential?

Some interesting posts here but let's not lose sight of the op. It was asking about the return of Jesus and how a 'smart' person could believe such a thing. If you came to the thread late go back and check.

I liked CB's long post and suggest that we adopt a similar tolerant and respectful tone.

Robski mentioned how a divine being might give us wisdom, wisdom comes with practice - human nature is what we are given and human nature is the problem.

Farangsay asked and commented about the age of the earth, a good discussion point but a separate subject from the discussion on the return of Jesus.

Also important is the interpretation of the "end of the world". I think the proviso "as we know it" was added by khall. It's a common misconception that it will end. What will end is the current order of things. This world of pain, suffering, disease and death will be changed, all things will be made new and this will be after the return of Jesus. Revelation 21vv4,5... "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."

So it's the old order of how the earth is now that will be changed at the return of Jesus.

I am always happy to discuss my scriptural belifs with people, I am not a member of an 'organised' religion and I respect your God given right to believe whatsoever you choose.

If you are looking for it, may you find it!

Oooops, sorry, forgot to mention the point made by farangsay about we perhaps being a small 'backwater' galaxy and all that. Don't really get the point here!

I really do feel that we are here as God has chosen and that God is only one, all seeing all powerful and omnipotent, the creator and sustainer of all things - the heavens the earth and the universe.

If only the world was like Bedlam. We have many different beliefs and perspectives all welcoming and respecting each others point of views.

We should organize our own coo and take over before It's too late.

ARTIST: George and Ira Gershwin

TITLE: It Ain't Necessarily So

Lyrics and Chords

[Porgy and Bess]

It ain't necessarily so

It ain't necessarily so

De things dat yo' liable to read in de Bible

It ain't necessarily so

/ Am D Am D / Am D Am - / D7 Eb7 D7 Eb7 / B7 E7 Am - /

Li'l David was small but oh my

Li'l David was small but oh my

He fought big Goliath who lay down and dieth

Li'l David was small but oh my

Oh Jonah he lived in de whale

Oh Jonah he lived in de whale

For he made his home in dat fish's abdomen

Oh Jonah he lived in de whale

Li'l Moses was found in a stream

Li'l Moses was found in a stream

He floated on water 'til ole Pharaoh's daughter

She fished him she says from that stream

It ain't necessarily so

It ain't necessarily so

Dey tell all you chillun de debble's a villain

But 'taint necessarily so

To get into Hebben don' snap for a sebben

Live clean, don' have no fault

Oh I takes dat gospel whenever it's pos'ble

But wid a grain of salt

/ F7 Bb - - / Bm7 E7 A6 A7 / D7 - G G6 / B7sus4 B7 D7 - /

Methus'lah lived nine hundred years

Methus'lah lived nine hundred years

But who calls dat livin' when no gal'll give in

To no man what's nine hundred years

I'm preachin' dis sermon to show

It ain't nessa, ain't nessa

Ain't nessa, ain't nessa

It ain't necessarily so

/ Dm6 - A E7 / D C#7 / F#m Dm6 / A E7 A - /

From: http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/itaintne.htm

Well, chownah, that song really is a breath of fresh air to both the religious and scientific communities!

I don't mean to be offensive in anyway, but....

Imacculate conception, imacculate deception more like, it's the biggest lie ever told.

Mary gets pregnant, but it's not Josephs so she said God made her pregnant, John the baptist was in on it, a hocum prophet and snake oil merchant, he see's the potential for claiming Jesus is the son of God and he wasn't wrong was he, kept the spotlight off him playing away with Mary, and as for her well somebody made her pregnant and it sure wasn't God, so she was playing away from home, but becomes the epitomy of purity.

The audience back then may have not been too bright, but why do people continue to believe in it today, because they find comfort in religion? Because they are people that don't want to face facts? Christianity is a religion based on an impossible lie.

Sorry if that offends you, OK stone me now.

Robski, why did you choose to post such an offensive post with the proviso 'hope it doesn't offend'?

Even your statements don't add up or make sense. Where in the bible does it say that Mary said God was the Father? Chapter and verse please. How could John the Baptist be playing away with Mary when he was the same age (six months older) as Jesus? I could go on, however, your views, whilst being incorrect, are firmly entrenched. Your entitled to your beliefs.

Now fellow Bedlamites, if I can quote suiging's post from above "We have many different beliefs and perspectives all welcoming and respecting each others point of views." So let's be respectful.

All tigers and doves take a chill pill..or don't..

I just don't believe it ok.

The Virgin Birth is a theological doctrine which asserts that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother, the Virgin Mary, without the participation of a human father. It is a key doctrine of the Christian faith, and is also held by Muslims (Qur'an 3.47).

The belief is formulated by the Apostle's Creed - a confession of faith shared by many Christian denominations - as follows: "I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary..."

The doctrine is based on a passage in the nativity narrative of the Gospel of Luke, that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35), and reached its final formulation in the fourth century in the context of the debates which characterised the church following its adoption as the State religion of the late Roman and early Byzantine empires. From a theological perspective, the doctrine of the Virgin Birth showed Jesus' divine and human natures at once united, paving the way for all of humanity to be united with God.

Modern biology has long ruled out the possibility of a virgin birth, and polls indicate that contemporary belief in central tenets of the Christian faith, including the Virgin Birth, is highly variable among both the clergy and the laity, in all branches of Christianity. Nevertheless, the belief in the Virgin Birth remains central to Christianity, and those conservative Christians who continue to hold it, do so as a supernatural event outside the laws of science.

I said I'm sorry if this offends, because I am.

I don't believe anything until i see it happen. Did you see it happen ??

It doesn't matter if you believe the accounts of six day creation, immaculate conception, burning bushes, or great floods. If people can get over themselves long enough to see that behind all the chapters and verses, lessons of humility, selflessness, honesty, forgiveness, and integrity, are repeated constantly from cover to cover. Look at people who practise their religion (I'm not talking about people who preach religion, but those who quietly live it), and you see the actions that result from understanding the lessons taught to them in those stories.

Whether the stories literal or allegorical matters not, it's understanding the message inside them that's important.

Nice one cdnvic, as ever, the voice of reason!

I just don't believe it ok.

The Virgin Birth is a theological doctrine which asserts that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother, the Virgin Mary, without the participation of a human father. It is a key doctrine of the Christian faith, and is also held by Muslims (Qur'an 3.47).

The belief is formulated by the Apostle's Creed - a confession of faith shared by many Christian denominations - as follows: "I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary..."

The doctrine is based on a passage in the nativity narrative of the Gospel of Luke, that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was "overshadowed" by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35), and reached its final formulation in the fourth century in the context of the debates which characterised the church following its adoption as the State religion of the late Roman and early Byzantine empires. From a theological perspective, the doctrine of the Virgin Birth showed Jesus' divine and human natures at once united, paving the way for all of humanity to be united with God.

Modern biology has long ruled out the possibility of a virgin birth, and polls indicate that contemporary belief in central tenets of the Christian faith, including the Virgin Birth, is highly variable among both the clergy and the laity, in all branches of Christianity. Nevertheless, the belief in the Virgin Birth remains central to Christianity, and those conservative Christians who continue to hold it, do so as a supernatural event outside the laws of science.

I said I'm sorry if this offends, because I am.

You see robski, this is a far more reasoned post than your first one which just denigrated the beliefs of others. It's cool if you don't believe it, I respect that.

However, dealing with the issue of the virgin birth, as a biological statement it may not hold water but as a scriptural one it does. It was predicted in the OT (Isiah 7.14 for example) and fulfilled in the NT. That's what I choose to believe. Not all miracles can be explained by science, although most can, this one can't. It's simply a matter of faith.

The later discussions which decided the creeds are of no use to me as a Christian as they are the musings of men deciding a set of doctrines which are not, on the whole, in keeping with what scripture says in so many ways - it's unreal.

As a biblical student for 30 years I am perfectly aware (and happy) as to what is fact and what is fabrication!

I've always been partial to this Dylan song, Highway 61 Revisited:

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"

God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but

The next time you see me comin' you better run"

Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"

God says, "Out on Highway 61."

Well Georgia Sam he had a bloody nose

Welfare Department they wouldn't give him no clothes

He asked poor Howard where can I go

Howard said there's only one place I know

Sam said tell me quick man I got to run

Ol' Howard just pointed with his gun

And said that way down on Highway 61.

Well Mack the Finger said to Louie the King

I got forty red white and blue shoe strings

And a thousand telephones that don't ring

Do you know where I can get rid of these things

And Louie the King said let me think for a minute son

And he said yes I think it can be easily done

Just take everything down to Highway 61.

Now the fifth daughter on the twelfth night

Told the first father that things weren't right

My complexion she said is much too white

He said come here and step into the light he says hmm you're right

Let me tell the second mother this has been done

But the second mother was with the seventh son

And they were both out on Highway 61.

Now the rovin' gambler he was very bored

He was tryin' to create a next world war

He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor

He said I never engaged in this kind of thing before

But yes I think it can be very easily done

We'll just put some bleachers out in the sun

And have it on Highway 61.

In Bob's honour, I named the classified section of my former mag Highway 61.

I've always been partial to this Dylan song, Highway 61 Revisited:

Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"

God say, "No." Abe say, "What?"

God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but

The next time you see me comin' you better run"

Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?"

God says, "Out on Highway 61."

As a coincidence I was listening to this on my iPod but my version is by Johnny Cash - he has slightly changed the words with a reference to "when the man in black comes to town" I prefer it to Bob's nasal twang In any case it is a great song.

CB

Whether the stories literal or allegorical matters not, it's understanding the message inside them that's important.

I agree totally, far too many people use religion as a means to further their own ends. I have always been humbled by the quiet believers whether they are great scholars or not who quietly and deeply go about their life in accordance to their faith.

Very good post cdnvic

CB

Robski, why did you choose to post such an offensive post with the proviso 'hope it doesn't offend'?

Even your statements don't add up or make sense. Where in the bible does it say that Mary said God was the Father? Chapter and verse please. How could John the Baptist be playing away with Mary when he was the same age (six months older) as Jesus? I could go on, however, your views, whilst being incorrect, are firmly entrenched. Your entitled to your beliefs.

Now fellow Bedlamites, if I can quote suiging's post from above "We have many different beliefs and perspectives all welcoming and respecting each others point of views." So let's be respectful.

It really depends on if you believe in miracles.

I was raised Catholic, but am not a firm believer in Christianity, however, I do believe in miracles and I do believe in God.

There is a lot more to this world than we can see.

It's still a religion based on a fabrication, enough said.

I agree though in part the reason why Christianity is so poular is not because of it's literal meaning, Pagan Europe converted to it to facilitate trade, rulers have used it to subjdugate their populations, and it also does a good job of uniting communities.

Peace.

True or not

The solace found by simple people in their hour of need makes it worthwhile.

True or not

The solace found by simple people in their hour of need makes it worthwhile.

Or the simple solice found by people in their normal day to day existance makes it worthwhile

CB

If only I could spell i would agree with you. well put.

I have no problems with folks religious beliefs provided they respect my right to believe otherwise. It's when they start trying to effect a conversion on me that I start getting irritated.

One xmas morning back in the UK I was preparing the dinner and the wife was playing with the kids in the lounge. Doorbell went so I went down to see who it was coming calling. It was a pair of either mormons or jehovahs witnesses, I don't know which I never gave them time. Told them they had 30 seconds to get off my property before I removed them with extreme prejudice.

And before somebody asks why was I, a non-believer, celebrating xmas you try not doing all the presents thing with two young kids. We never touched on the religious background to xmas with the kids, to them it was just another birthday with a bit more fuss. Problem was their actual birthdays are 23rd Dec and 20th Jan, no prizes guessing to what my thoughts turned to in springtime.

Fabrication denotes something that was wilfully deceitful. We don't know what prompted those books to be written, or what science they didn't understand and tried to explain away as divine, as most every culture I know of does. Two or more millennia ago people were aware of the workings of the physical world around them, and not much more. It's not unusual that they would attribute all kinds of phenomena to the work of another sentient being. Much of what was written is probably true, but written in such a way as the mind of the time had understood, or imagined things to be.

Besides, someone who looks at any story and worries about literal truth is often missing the whole point.

Remember Smokey the Bear, who was a cartoon used to raise fire safety issues for people in US national parks? He appeared in numerous cartoons, both in print and on film, warning people of the dangers of being careless with fire when camping, fishing, and other outdoor activities.

Now take an example of two people, One guy who watches what is admittedly a cartoon, and thinks "It hasn't rained much lately, I better be careful when I go fishing this weekend, or the guy flicking cigarette ends all over the forest proclaiming "That's bulls*it...... bears can't talk!"?

Who's the one who actually gets the truth, and which one is so hung up on the literal definition of truth that he misses it all together?

I have no problems with folks religious beliefs provided they respect my right to believe otherwise. It's when they start trying to effect a conversion on me that I start getting irritated.

In my opinion religion like politics are subjects that need to be kept personal. I have no problem at all in accepting anyone's beliefs but that does not give them the right or priviledge of trying to proselytise.

One xmas morning back in the UK I was preparing the dinner and the wife was playing with the kids in the lounge. Doorbell went so I went down to see who it was coming calling. It was a pair of either mormons or jehovahs witnesses, I don't know which I never gave them time. Told them they had 30 seconds to get off my property before I removed them with extreme prejudice.

That is interesting because as far as I know neither group celebrate Christmas. Maybe figured that everyone would be at home.

And before somebody asks why was I, a non-believer, celebrating xmas you try not doing all the presents thing with two young kids. We never touched on the religious background to xmas with the kids, to them it was just another birthday with a bit more fuss.

My farung friends celebrate Christmas with their kids here in Thailand for similar reasons. If my memory serves me correctly and I am willing to be corrected on this but something like 80% of Australians last year said they celebrated Christmas but only 5% went to Church on the day. That indicates that the majority are doing the same thing as you, celebrating the festival but not the religion. I have absolutely no problem with that and prefer people to have made a decision based on their own beliefs than follow a religion to what they have little connection.

Problem was their actual birthdays are 23rd Dec and 20th Jan, no prizes guessing to what my thoughts turned to in springtime.

The sap was rising

My birthday is in February, my younger brother is in March and my older in April. the months of May, June, and July (nine month before) are always the coldest months in Australia - pre electric blankets and television

CB

[My birthday is in February, my younger brother is in March and my older in April. the months of May, June, and July (nine month before) are always the coldest months in Australia - pre electric blankets and television

CB

Nope those months are when that Irish game you lot pass off as football is on the telly.

Enough to send anyone to bed early,