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Christians , Muslims , Jews Etc Comeallye

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Are you talking about Gaelic football, or Aussie rules in Oz? That and hurling are two of the best games ever!

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Nope those months are when that Irish game you lot pass off as football is on the telly.

Enough to send anyone to bed early,

Finally we get this thread back to religion. Football is not life and death, it more important

CB

  • Author
It is surely irrelevant what age the earth is or if the ages in scripture are literal or figurative. Ask yourself the question, if all Chrstians (and some do) believed in an earth billions of years old, would you then believe in the literal return of Jesus? So surely that's not the point. What most Christians (and not all) believe in is a six day creation. I also assure you that many smart people do believe in a six day creation. I have a book called 'In six days, why 50 scientists believe in a six day creation'. I'm not saying I agreed with all of their analysis, however, it shows that not all scientists believe in evolution.

To answer your question , no. I stretch "believe" to include "probably true as best as I can make out"

and this proposition doesn't qualify. There being no hard evidence that such an individual ever existed

(and if you can prove me wrong do so , but publish your book first because it could do rather well) and

there being interesting and plausible theories that Jesus is actually a composite character built on many

of the "prophets" springing up at a time of rebellion against the Roman tyrant leaves me sceptical.

The shift of the centre of Christianity to Rome , the appearance of the "let his blood be upon" line to

exculpate the Roman superpower of the age (and IMHO the line which led to the Shoah) , the

transformation of Jesus into a "God" because the Roman emperor enjoyed a similar status at the time ,

the shifting of the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to fit in with the Roman "religion" , the shifting of

Jesus' "official" birthday from January 6 to December 25 to fit in with the "birthday" of the sun god..........

Really it's all been spun and respun so much it's worse than the most cynical political manifesto you

could imagine.

My point about the timeline (and OK it's a weak one) is based on the age of the universe/Earth compared

to the arrival dates of prophets such as Jesus. (I don't know if any others have a "return ticket"). If it

took him , say . 50,000 years from when humanoids began to communicate in an intelligible fashion to

pitch up and point out the question to answer 42 anybody waiting for his "return" had better not hold

their breath in the meantime.

On the "six day creation" thing you could be playing the "of course in them days , what with the time

difference n'all a day was 10 billion years". The concept of "day" is based on a planet's spin. There's

got to be planets out there whizzing around with a "day" in our minutes and other lazy sods take

hundreds of years to go round the block.

Evolution remains a theory which anybody can accept or reject. The only "proof" I would offer is

a negative/contrary one. Your current nation of residence has been experimenting with devolution

for some time now and the result is a proliferation of "lager louts".

You ask "Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?" Again, I will share my personal understanding of hel_l. In scripture hel_l is the grave where we all go at death. It takes study to come to this understanding, start at the OT and work forward, the Hebrew word means the grave. So, to answer the question, we all go to hel_l! :o

Thank you for this illumination. I learned something today. I have to put my tongue in my cheek and

point out that some of us might get 5 minutes at gas mark 99,000,000 and end up in a kitchy little

brass urn or sprinkled behind the posts at Croker.

Too many points for me to deal with here. However, some of your (if it is yours) information is flawed. Historians such as Josephus (37 AD) make reference to Jesus and to his trail and death. So hard evidence if needed. Josephus is hard going but loads of references abound. It's also interesting how many bible references have been proven true by archaeological findings. The existence of Nebuchadnezzar is a case in point!

My point about evolution and scientists still holds true. My position is one of faith. So are the scientists who espouse evolution - they cannot prove their 'theories', so their position is one of faith. It just differs from mine. Also, the reference to the book with 50 scientists who believe in a literal six days, proves that not all scientists believe in evolution. Remember, I didn't say I agreed with all of their views, but I found it interesting that there are such opposing views amongst the scientific community.

Your point about the making of Jesus into a god and the changing of dates is totally valid. In scripture Jesus is described as the son of God and not God himself. I am not a Trinitarian!!! One small point about the changing of the birthday of Jesus to the 25th December. This was to appease most of the pagans who they were trying to convert; many had significant dates in mid to late December. Jesus Birthday is late September, probably the 26th. You can prove this from scripture. There's also no scriptural evidence that we should celebrate this date. Born on the 'day of atonement and sacrificed at Passover, 33 and a half years of age.

ps I do believe in the literal 6 day creation, 6 literal 24 hour days.

would love to bring this to a next level

why not we meet up and have a chat over it .

face to face

i would love to listen to your idea of god .

and i will open my heart and mind to share and listen to you

so as a human being we grow together .

and exchange idea so we can better man kind .

-

just pick a date , time an place ,

notthing is better then a relaxing days talking baout how we can find god , proof god , body search god ,

turn the tah , pull the rabbit , flip the coin , look across the river , see beyond the mirror , dig the hole , open the door , find the key , twist the knob , lift the basket , trap the knowledge ,uncover the truth , share with no other then everyone of you .

If you keen , PM me

:o

please be open minded about it . and be fair to your self as much as other ,

and of cos my deepest respect to your god .

Think I said this before. All houses of worship and the teachers therein have always been kind to me. I've prayed/meditated in temples, churches, holy places (never hit a muslim place yet, but I bet they'd let me pray there).

Most religions have one god or belief, and the morals are near the same. Just like the Tower of Babel or the chinese whisper, interpretations got lost. Now followers of different faiths bicker.

Thought religion was about love when I was little; now I see it's about war and separation and pointing fingers.

That's why I love animals; true love, without question.

Personally, I'm patiently waiting for the Intervention... I'll be super disappointed if it doesn't occur! :o

Yes suega, Christmas is the old pagan festival of Saturnalia celebrated mid winter to mark the start of the run up to spring (but still with some bad weather to go). That is where all the eating and drinking comes from. The people were frugal with their supplies laid down in the autumn so once they got to mid winter they knew they could afford to go wild a bit with spring on the way.

The melding of Cristianity with the local beliefs is also why many ancient churches in Europe have all those gargoyles around the walls. They were pagan images built in so as to encourage the locals inside and, being as they were mainly illiterate, they then proceeded to worship the new "God" thinking they were making good to their own lot.

Crafty eh? Then we get to Eoster. :o

Now take an example of two people, One guy who watches what is admittedly a cartoon, and thinks "It hasn't rained much lately, I better be careful when I go fishing this weekend, or the guy flicking cigarette ends all over the forest proclaiming "That's bulls*it...... bears can't talk!"?

Who's the one who actually gets the truth, and which one is so hung up on the literal definition of truth that he misses it all together?

cdnvic you come up with some very good posts and this is one of them. I have known people of many faiths and the religion that they follow is almost incidental to the fact that they follow a code of conduct that expands their life beyond the mundane. They see the joy of small children and give thanks to God, they eat and share food with each other and live according to their beliefs. I have friends who are Jews, Christians of varied denomenations, Muslims, Budhists, Hindus, Agnostics, and Atheists. They all have an inner belief system in what is right and wrong. Irrespective of the path they follow they fundamentally share very similar concepts of right and wrong and their place in this world.

CB

Rubbish, that's a terrible analogy that is just saying if you don't believe it then you are just missing out on the bigger picture.

How can you compare religion to a smokey bear cartoon?, to say that is dumbing down the argument would be an understatement.

And anyway Smokey the Bear never started any wars! Leave him out of it!

  • Author

No it's not ! As CB says , it is well and concisely put.

However.

If you took the Christian bible , tore out the page with the ten commandments and the

page with the sermon on the mount and binned the rest would you have discarded

anything essential ?

Are you talking about Gaelic football, or Aussie rules in Oz? That and hurling are two of the best games ever!

We are actually referring to Aussie Rules in Oz but Gaelic Football is good. Have you seen a game between Australia and Ireland? They play each year and they are very popular here in Oz and amongst the expats and Irish in Britain. We have a couple of Irish lads who made the move out to Oz and play in the AFL. It takes them a while to get used to not playing with a round ball.

Hurling is not played much in Oz and for most Aussies hurling is what you do after a really heavy night on the beer and discover that the sausage in a bun wasn't such a good idea after all. :o

CB

Rubbish, that's a terrible analogy that is just saying if you don't believe it then you are just missing out on the bigger picture.

How can you compare religion to a smokey bear cartoon?, to say that is dumbing down the argument would be an understatement.

And anyway Smokey the Bear never started any wars! Leave him out of it!

Robski obviously has a problem with 'organised' religion. True Christianty has never, and could never, start a war. It is totally forbidden by Scripture - The words of Jesus, Love thine enemy, turn the other cheek, etc...

Rubbish, that's a terrible analogy that is just saying if you don't believe it then you are just missing out on the bigger picture.

How can you compare religion to a smokey bear cartoon?, to say that is dumbing down the argument would be an understatement.

And anyway Smokey the Bear never started any wars! Leave him out of it!

Sorry - don't know what happened here!

No it's not ! As CB says , it is well and concisely put.

However.

If you took the Christian bible , tore out the page with the ten commandments and the

page with the sermon on the mount and binned the rest would you have discarded

anything essential ?

Once again I do seem to be the only one supporting the bible. I have to disagree with the above. I read the bible every day, I attend at least 3 bible meetings a week, I am constantly in discussions with fellow bilble students, I speak on bible based subjects and have lectured in Ireland, the UK, France and Switzerland and I can personally attest that every time I open it's pages I find something new and uplifting!

It proves itself to be the word of God!

No it's not ! As CB says , it is well and concisely put.

However.

If you took the Christian bible , tore out the page with the ten commandments and the

page with the sermon on the mount and binned the rest would you have discarded

anything essential ?

Once again I do seem to be the only one supporting the bible. I have to disagree with the above. I read the bible every day, I attend at least 3 bible meetings a week, I am constantly in discussions with fellow bilble students, I speak on bible based subjects and have lectured in Ireland, the UK, France and Switzerland and I can personally attest that every time I open it's pages I find something new and uplifting!

It proves itself to be the word of God!

suegha I am by no stretch of the imagination a Bible scholar but I also think that it is one of the great books and support what it says. The same would go for the Koran and the writing of the Buddha. Please do not feel that you are alone in your defence of the bible. I am happy to stand up for it with you.

Out of interest Farangsay would you take the Magna Carta and discard the rest of British History as being irrelevant or the American Bill of Rights and toss away the rest of the US literature as not being essential?

I would say that there would be any number of people who would disagree with your statement.

CB

Thanks CB. Sometimes it can feel lonely being a bible reader.

Thanks CB. Sometimes it can feel lonely being a bible reader.

I once read it in Afghanistan and not one person thought it strange. The locals recognised it for the book it was and didn't bat an eye. My knowledge of the text is extremely limited but I still think it is an incredible book about incredible people. How people take the writing and apply it to their life is up to them.

You shouldn't feel lonely being a bible reader I think it is still be biggest selling book, and would have to be one of the longest print runs. The second half is about 2,000 years old and the first part much older. A couple of editorial changes over the years and translations have made some changes I am guessing but essentially the meaning is the same.

I hope the book continues to inspire and enlighten

CB

Nice one CB. You're right, it does depend on where you are. Most of my 'foreign' friends are full of respect for the bible even it's not the book of their faith.

There are many translations, I have about 20! The key word is 'translation' some are para-phrased, I don't like reading these. I also have the Hewbrew and Greek texts which is a huge boon to deeper study. The pc is also a boon as it's possible to do coplex searches in seconds which with the paper based copies could take hours.

You're also right that how people actually apply the message is up to them. I think this is why I have a problem with 'organised' religions telling people what to believe - I have no 'head office' ruled over by a 'man' telling me how to interpret the text.

Nice one CB. You're right, it does depend on where you are. Most of my 'foreign' friends are full of respect for the bible even it's not the book of their faith.

When I was leaving Afghanistan I asked one of the Pathans were I could get a copy of the Koran (Qaran) he gave me one of his as a personal gift. I was deeply touched by the gesture. I can't read it but it is a personal treasure of mine. In Greece I got a copy that was translated into English. I have a copy of my military issue bible and one that belongs to my great grandfather. I also have my grandfather's copy that his grandfather gave him when he shipped out at the beginning of WW1. It has personal notes written by my grandfather that he wrote in the trenches as a young man. My grandfather gave it to me when I was shipping back out overseas. That was the copy I was reading in Afganistan.

My grandfather said "there's no such thing as an agnostic in the trenches"

There are many translations, I have about 20! The key word is 'translation' some are para-phrased, I don't like reading these. I also have the Hewbrew and Greek texts which is a huge boon to deeper study. The pc is also a boon as it's possible to do coplex searches in seconds which with the paper based copies could take hours.

OK I am going to ask a really stupid question because that means there is actually usefull stuff on the internet and not just porn and Thai Visa. Are these copies of actual bibles or text that has been loaded up online? I remember the project that was to put bibles such as the Lindisfarne Bible and Book of Kells on line in their actual state so that people could access it online. The concern was would the process in anyway damage the original copies. The idea was to put as many copies as possible on line and allow access to them.

You're also right that how people actually apply the message is up to them. I think this is why I have a problem with 'organised' religions telling people what to believe - I have no 'head office' ruled over by a 'man' telling me how to interpret the text.

So you study as part of a group or at a University doing research? For some reason until relatively recently I thought you were a priest.

CB

  • Author
No it's not ! As CB says , it is well and concisely put.

However.

If you took the Christian bible , tore out the page with the ten commandments and the

page with the sermon on the mount and binned the rest would you have discarded

anything essential ?

Once again I do seem to be the only one supporting the bible. I have to disagree with the above. I read the bible every day, I attend at least 3 bible meetings a week, I am constantly in discussions with fellow bilble students, I speak on bible based subjects and have lectured in Ireland, the UK, France and Switzerland and I can personally attest that every time I open it's pages I find something new and uplifting!

It proves itself to be the word of God!

I made the remark in the context of CDNVIC's post and it was in the form of a question ,

although a midly provocative one , to draw out some debate (and head off at the pass the

risk of this thread being moved to the sports forum) .

Frankly I don't find a direct answer in your post , inasmuch as citing any other sections

which are remotely as significant as my two selections.

I can quite understand your interest in the whole subject , and I have already learned a

couple of things from your posts.

In my perception the old testament is "brief history of the world" from the point of view

of the Israelites. Much of it must be based on folk myths and oral history (I don't believe

that Adam and Eve kept diaries). I do not know , you may well do , if any of the books

therein have been dated. Even the textual timeline stretches some 5000 years (I have

that number in my head because I've heard Christian fundamentalists use it in their

estimate of the age of the universe) which would suggest to me most of the texts were

written long after the events described, The new testament (and I stand ready to be

corrected) covers a much shorter period and was apparently written after the death of

Jesus by people who were not witnesses to any of the events described. This without

even broaching the issue of the selection of texts to be included and the exclusion of

those which did not fit the religious politics of the time. In my wanderings I have come

across many interesting items (gospel of Mary even an epistle of Jesus) but these on

the internet where the information comes with no guarantee. All this ( in the

case of the new testament) without mentioning the process of hand copying religious

textx (with all the possibilities of judicious editting) all under the control of a Roman

church who were not averse to outright forgery (the Constantine donation) and keen

to suppress anybody who was not "with the program" as heretics (the Cathars of

Languedoc seemed interesting but the only information surviving is that produced

by the "powers that be" of the time condemning them as abomination).

I would postulate that the sacred texts of Christianity as used by the various sects

under that umberella are in the broad not contemprary accounts of the events they

describe and the Christian element (the new testament) is a heavily editted version of

the writings produced after the events in question.

To even this up a bit , broaden the context a bit and earn myself a personal fatwah

I have to mention some stuff I read about the Quoran. Firstly that , after the death

of the prophet , some sheikh or caliph or whatever took it upon himself to gather

all his writings (which were noted down on a variety of physical media) and compile

them into a single volume. He then destroyed the originals. And this long before

shredders were invented ! Secondly that Mohammed had , when sorely pressed

by his polytheistic enemies , produced some verses which were more in line with their

world view and thus saved his personal bacon (bad choice of words I know). These

were later repudiated and expunged from the "authorised version" and might have

been consigned to perpetual obscurity had not a successful author decided that

"The Satanic Verses" would make a good hook to hang a book on.

CB Does this respond to your post ? And could you be more precise on the "any

number of people" who would disagree with my statement ? I estimate it's got to

between 2 (yourself and Suegha) and whatever the population of the planet is

today minus 1. It can be useful to quantify one's opposition.

Now you all have enough on-topic rocks you can throw at me so no more

sports discussions. OK ?

OK I am going to ask a really stupid question because that means there is actually usefull stuff on the internet and not just porn and Thai Visa. Are these copies of actual bibles or text that has been loaded up online?

Multi-lingual and multi-version :o

http://www.biblegateway.com/

OK I am going to ask a really stupid question because that means there is actually usefull stuff on the internet and not just porn and Thai Visa. Are these copies of actual bibles or text that has been loaded up online?

Multi-lingual and multi-version :o

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Mate you really are a fount of knowledge this week

thanks

CB

OK I am going to ask a really stupid question because that means there is actually usefull stuff on the internet and not just porn and Thai Visa. Are these copies of actual bibles or text that has been loaded up online?

Multi-lingual and multi-version :o

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Nice one cdnvic, I have seen this one before but have not visited for a while. Entire versions are there. For comparitive texts open a few windows and view side by side or alt-tab. A Thai member of this forum has helped me find Thai versions, although in Thai text so not much use to me Yet!

I have loads of excellent sites saved to my favourite places and visit some on a daily basis. One which I like is a 'daily readings' site with comments added by people. You can respond to views and post your own. it's sometimes a bit 'advanced' but I find it interesting.

http://www.dailyreadings.org.uk/

I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

Questioning someone's faith is a loosing venture plus, the dissing of Buddhists as being 'able to skirt around any issue' is, frankly, an arrogant position.

  • Author
I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

Questioning someone's faith is a loosing venture plus, the dissing of Buddhists as being 'able to skirt around any issue' is, frankly, an arrogant position.

That was humour sunshine , and frankly , laced with a certain verity (based on my perception

of himself who was too much philosopher in search of enlightenment to offer "certainties")

I haven't "dissed" anybody or their beliefs (to use your "hood" vernacular).

I haven't had my kettle described as black in a while. Where have you been ?

Lastly the word was only two or three lines down in your dictionary. It's "losing".

Sorry to "dis" anyone, but I am pretty sure that the Bible is a bunch of incomprehensible gobble-de-gook and anyone who says that they can understand it is either nuts, delusional or a pathalogical liar.

I haven't bothered to try to read any other "Holy Books", but from briefly skimming them, I'm pretty sure that they are pretty much the same. :o

  • Author
OK I am going to ask a really stupid question because that means there is actually usefull stuff on the internet and not just porn and Thai Visa. Are these copies of actual bibles or text that has been loaded up online?

Multi-lingual and multi-version :o

http://www.biblegateway.com/

I had a surface look but the site looks a little "party line" and agenda based for my tastes.

For straight texts downloadable free online I was impressed by a remarkable project

which has a religion sub-section :

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Category:Religion_Bookshelf

Of course if you want to take a walk on the wild side , Christianity wise ,

you could google "apocrypha" or even better "gnostic".

There must have been a lot of interesting stuff floating around in the first couple

of centuries AD until it got burnt (along with the poor guy who had it in his pocket).

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