Over to you crypto fanboys

[BenDeCosta]

6 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

it's interesting to think we can create "money" out of cloud ????

 

that alone should give you a clue on where we are with cryptos ????

 

Yeah, anyone can create a new cryptocurrency and become an overnight billionaire. 

 

But there are people around the world willing to chuck in their life savings, hoping that what they buy can be sold to a bigger idiot at many times the price they paid. But what they are buying or selling has no intrinsic value. It's almost like a Ponzi scheme.

 

Buying and selling something with no intrinsic value is speculating, not investing.

[mjnaus]

6 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

So what you're saying is that since the general trend is upwards, it can never go down? 

 

It's like people in the UK who haven't lived long enough to see a property price crash, so they think it's guaranteed to go up forever.

 

But at least with a house you can live in it. What can you do with an obscure cryptocurrency?

 

It obviously CAN go down. Didn't think I'd need to specifically state that, as it's pretty obvious. However, as the past 13 years clearly show, no matter the dip or correction, the prices seem to recover pretty quickly and then march on to reach new ATH's. 

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

It obviously CAN go down. Didn't think I'd need to specifically state that, as it's pretty obvious. However, as the past 13 years clearly show, no matter the dip or correction, the prices seem to recover pretty quickly and then march on to reach new ATH's. 

 

Yeah, until it bombs.

 

At least if I spend a million dollars on gold, jewelry or a famous painting, if it tanks then I have got something in my hands. With crypto, what have you got? Nothing.

[mjnaus]

6 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

it's interesting to think we can create "money" out of cloud ????

 

that alone should give you a clue on where we are with cryptos

 

Lol, I know right? Craziness! 

 

Almost as ridiculous as creating money from sea shells, beads and giant rocks ???? 

[BenDeCosta]

The advice should be:

 

1. Save enough cash so that you can ride out any storm, 6 months of living costs or more.

2. Pay as much as you can into your pension scheme.

3. Anything extra, put it into stocks, shares, bonds and funds, preferably something paying a decent dividend.

4. If, after all that, you still have spare money, then gamble on crypto, but don't spend more than you're comfortable losing.

 

This idea that crypto is a guaranteed money-spinner is insane and extremely irresponsible. It is just gambling. Just because some chump on a forum tells you that he has made millions from it doesn't mean that you should do it, because you probably are not in the same financial situation as this person, who also could have ended up losing a lot of money.  Bitcoin is down 41% from it's peak about now. I'm sure that in Vegas you could meet someone who tells you that they got rich from betting on numbers 3, 17 and 32. Does that mean that you'll have the same luck?

 

Crypto is not the future, in fact it could end up being banned. When was the last time you walked into a shop and bought something with your random garbage-coin?

 

 

[mjnaus]

4 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

At least if I spend a million dollars on gold, jewelry or a famous painting, if it tanks then I have got something in my hands. With crypto, what have you got? Nothing.

 

Ah yes. It is, of course, much better to have something you can hold in your hands (from where nobody can ever take it!) instead of having something secured by something as obscure as a temper-proof, immutable public ledger.  And indeed, when the value of gold goes to 0 and the world decides it no longer considers your painting as "famous", at the very least you'll have something to wear around your neck and something to wipe your <deleted> with. These are all indeed excellent point. 

As to your last question; well, you'd still have your crypto. And as long as there are still silly sods out there that bestow value upon those coins, you will have something of value. That's essentially how it works ????

[BenDeCosta]

6 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

Ah yes. It is, of course, much better to have something you can hold in your hands (from where nobody can ever take it!) instead of having something secured by something as obscure as a temper-proof, immutable public ledger.  And indeed, when the value of gold goes to 0 and the world decides it no longer considers your painting as "famous", at the very least you'll have something to wear around your neck and something to wipe your <deleted> with. These are all indeed excellent point. 

As to your last question; well, you'd still have your crypto. And as long as there are still silly sods out there that bestow value upon those coins, you will have something of value. That's essentially how it works ????

 

Just like when a Ukrainian hacker steals your crypto-coins. What will you do then?

 

You won't even be able to wipe your ass with them. Because they don't exist.

 

And when do you think that the value of gold will go to zero, considering its many uses not just for jewelry, but in medicine and technology, and even space-exploration? Tell me about a crypto coin that actually has real world uses and I would be glad to invest. It's just a game where you're trying to sell what you bought to someone stupider than you.

[mjnaus]

8 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

This idea that crypto is a guaranteed money-spinner is insane and extremely irresponsible. It is just gambling. Just because some chump on a forum tells you that he has made millions from it doesn't mean that you should do it, because you probably are not in the same financial situation as this person, who also could have ended up losing a lot of money.  Bitcoin is down 41% from it's peak about now. I'm sure that in Vegas you could meet someone who tells you that they got rich from betting on numbers 3, 17 and 32. Does that mean that you'll have the same luck?

 

Who would ever claim that crypto is a guaranteed money spinner? I don't think I have seen anybody on TV make such claims. And even if someone would, anybody with half a brain would see right through that. It's pretty obvious that crypto is extremely risky and everyone risking more than they're willing to loose should seriously reconsider their actions imo.

 

14 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

Crypto is not the future, in fact it could end up being banned. When was the last time you walked into a shop and bought something with your random garbage-coin?

 

 

China banned crypto in 2013, or somewhere around that time. Turkey is working on a ban as well. The United States however, is working on a regulatory framework (between the SEC, OCC and another government organization). EU is working on legislation and regulation as well. Considering the path the US and the EU have chosen, it would appear they have decided to regulate rather than ban, knowing that it would seem unlikely for both governments to change their stance. There's never any guarantees, sure. Whether or not you believe it's the future, it sure as hell is the present. And it's growing.

 

Oh, the last thing I bought/paid for with crypto is a domain name, servers and attorney fees (and that's only the last two weeks). 

[BenDeCosta]

6 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Who would ever claim that crypto is a guaranteed money spinner?  

 

Plenty of idiots even on this site saying that a 40% drop is a "buying opportunity". And many others trying to argue against the risks by saying that "crypto is the future". But suddenly they've all now gone quiet. There was even one buffoon who started a thread about ditching "normal" banking and moving to crypto. He must be licking his wounds now, I feel sorry for him, what a mug.

[The Cipher]

38 minutes ago, Susco said:

unless you can post a credible source, which shows the intrinsic value of any crypto

 

I thought about making a detailed post about this, but then I read every response since my last comment and now I don't feel like it would do any good to attempt to explain the value proposition to a demographic of essentially my grandparents; skeptical people for whom crypto positions are unlikely to be suitable anyway ????.

 

But what I will do is link the below articles and folks can read them if interested.

 

Here is a good article that explains why a cryptocurrency - Ethereum in this case - might be valuable.

 

Here is a research memo from *checks notes* Goldman Sachs that discusses some of the risks and opportunities in the crypto space. The memo contains various views on the underlying potential of the technology.

 

And just because of the demo on this forum, here are a couple of articles from Forbes that I haven't read and am including only for name recognition since everyone on Main Street Thai Visa knows Forbes. Article 1 and Article 2.

---

To be clear, this is presented for knowledge purposes only and is not intended to entice anyone to invest in any asset.

 

Assuming you identify the legitimate projects, a long investment in a crypto asset is a speculative bet on the technology gaining widespread adoption and accordingly, on the value of blockchain networks and the products that are offered on those networks.

 

It is uncertain whether these projects will be able to carve out niches long term and, even if they are successful in doing so, the extent to which they will be adopted and used.

 

However, the above statement is very different from something being an outright scam.

 

(That being said, there definitely are a ton of scams and ponzis in the space, but that's a different conversation).

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

I thought about making a detailed post about this, but then I read every response since my last comment and now I don't feel like it would do any good to attempt to explain the value proposition to a demographic of essentially my grandparents; skeptical people for whom crypto positions are unlikely to be suitable anyway ????.

 

But what I will do is link the below articles and folks can read them if interested.

 

Here is a good article that explains why a cryptocurrency - Ethereum in this case - might be valuable.

 

Here is a research memo from *checks notes* Goldman Sachs that discusses some of the risks and opportunities in the crypto space. The memo contains various views on the underlying potential of the technology.

 

And just because of the demo on this forum, here are a couple of articles from Forbes that I haven't read and am including only for name recognition since everyone on Main Street Thai Visa knows Forbes. Article 1 and Article 2.

---

To be clear, this is presented for knowledge purposes only and is not intended to entice anyone to invest in any asset.

 

Assuming you identify the legitimate projects, a long investment in a crypto asset is a speculative bet on the technology gaining widespread adoption and accordingly, on the value of blockchain networks and the products that are offered on those networks.

 

It is uncertain whether these projects will be able to carve out niches long term and, even if they are successful in doing so, the extent to which they will be adopted and used.

 

However, the above statement is very different from something being an outright scam.

 

(That being said, there definitely are a ton of scams and ponzis in the space, but that's a different conversation).

 

It doesn't matter how valuable you think crypto is, you could wake up one morning and for one reason or another, all of those millions could be gone forever.

[mjnaus]

1 minute ago, BenDeCosta said:

And many others trying to argue against the risks by saying that "crypto is the future".

 

In your world saying "crypto is the future" equals "crypto is risk free"? That is..... well, not quite how one responds to something like that. 

 

13 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

Tell me about a crypto coin that actually has real world uses and I would be glad to invest.

 

Millions of South Koreans using Luna's stable coin on a daily basis to facilitate payments: https://asiamarkets.com/south-korean-crypto-project-achieving-adoption/. Let me know if you need some pointers on how to setup your wallet and acquire some coins. I will take some extra time to explain you how to keep your money safe from those pesky Ukrainian hackers ( @GrandPapillon or was it the Chinese mafia who did all the crypto hacking? )

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

In your world saying "crypto is the future" equals "crypto is risk free"? That is..... well, not quite how one responds to something like that. 

 

 

No, many people are saying that "crypto is the future". Usually people that own a lot of crypto.

[mjnaus]

1 minute ago, BenDeCosta said:

It doesn't matter how valuable you think crypto is, you could wake up one morning and for one reason or another, all of those millions could be gone forever.

 

Any day now folks! I have heard rumors about Ukrainian hackers partnering up with the Chinese mafia to vaporize all coins in existence.  

 

2 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

It doesn't matter how valuable you think crypto is

 

This probably the most clever thing you've said all evening (although I had to remove the second part of that sentence since that'd kinda ruin it). Indeed it does not matter how valuable @The Cipher, myself or any other random individual thinks crypto is. What matters is the value that's bestowed on these assets by community consensus. 

[BenDeCosta]

2 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

This probably the most clever thing you've said all evening 

 

Yes, you're much "cleverer" than me, but resort to ad hominem attacks when I was trying to have a discussion. QED.

[The Cipher]

3 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

It doesn't matter how valuable you think crypto is, you could wake up one morning and for one reason or another, all of those millions could be gone forever.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing here, but yeah sure. I could wake up one morning and find that my position had gone to zero, or was stolen, or had any number of bad things happen to it.

 

I could also wake up and die any day. Both of those situations have some attached probability that is not zero but is less than 1.

 

So...it's almost like a prudent approach to life is to manage the risk-return tradeoffs inherent to skillful living/investing.

 

Should you bet your life savings on crypto? Probably not. Can you responsibly have some exposure? Yes.

[ThailandRyan]

54 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

it's interesting to think we can create "money" out of cloud ????

 

that alone should give you a clue on where we are with cryptos ????

Yet governments can print trillions of dollars not backed by anything but belief as well, some irony.

[sharksy]

29 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

Just like when a Ukrainian hacker steals your crypto-coins. What will you do then?

 

You won't even be able to wipe your ass with them. Because they don't exist.

 

And when do you think that the value of gold will go to zero, considering its many uses not just for jewelry, but in medicine and technology, and even space-exploration? Tell me about a crypto coin that actually has real world uses and I would be glad to invest. It's just a game where you're trying to sell what you bought to someone stupider than you.

Looks like you are going to have to put your money where your mouth is.

https://decrypt.co/69417/10000-uk-taxis-to-take-crypto-payments-on-ethereum

 

[BenDeCosta]

5 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing here, but yeah sure. I could wake up one morning and find that my position had gone to zero, or was stolen, or had any number of bad things happen to it.

 

I could also wake up and die any day. Both of those situations have some attached probability that is not zero but is less than 1.

 

So...it's almost like a prudent approach to life is to manage the risk-return tradeoffs inherent to skillful living/investing.

 

Should you bet your life savings on crypto? Probably not. Can you responsibly have some exposure? Yes.

 

This is a great comment and gets at the root of how I feel about crypto. It's something you should chuck a bit of excess money at if you have it at the end of the month. Risk/reward, but crypto is being touted by many almost as a "get rich quick" scheme, and it's that idea which I take offence at. It's the riskiest way to invest and therefore should only be a small part of your portfolio so that if it goes to zero, you'll be able to weather the storm.

[mjnaus]

8 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

Yes, you're much "cleverer" than me, but resort to ad hominem attacks when I was trying to have a discussion. QED.

 

Oh come on man, don't be so petulant. We're all just having fun here. You've got to admin it's pretty hard to remain serious considering some of the statements that thrown around here. 

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, mjnaus said:

 

Oh come on man, don't be so petulant. We're all just having fun here. You've got to admin it's pretty hard to remain serious considering some of the statements that thrown around here. 

 

Yes, sorry, we are just having a bit of a laugh. I take it back.

[mjnaus]

5 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Looks like you are going to have to put your money where your mouth is.

 

 

I had first dips on that with Terra being used by millions of South Koreans daily. Than again, I'd rather put my money into ETH than I would into Terra's stable coin. 

[BenDeCosta]

I have no problem with people investing in crypto. But these people should already have a diversified portfolio of investments, of which crypto should only comprise a few percent because it is so damn risky.

 

I get annoyed by people on here, and they know who they are, telling people that crypto is the future and that all fiat currencies are doomed. They are just trying to pump up their holdings. Fiat currencies aren't going anywhere any time soon, and of course governments printing money and the subsequent inflation devalues your holding, but that is not a reason to pump all of your money into some new garbage coin created by a teenager in Uganda. 

 

Someone with $200k ten years ago, of which 5% was invested in crypto would be super rich by now. But someone now with the same portfolio might not be so lucky, but then they'd only lose 5% of their portfolio and would probably still be in profit, even if their crypto went to zero. Diversification is key.

 

If you've got a pension, investments, and savings, then why not go to Vegas and have a gamble? What's the worst that can happen? But when you're going to Vegas with your entire net-worth, then that is foolishness.

[fdsa]

1 hour ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

But with crypto, not only will you not only have the chips, but there's a very real risk that you'll lose your money to hackers. Anyone who has done well from it, well done, but it was a gamble, and you should not be advising people to do the same.

 

https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/6-of-the-biggest-crypto-heists-of-all-time/

 

this article has a good recommendation:

 

Quote

Never store your coins on an exchange

Unlike with traditional banks, there is no need for cryptocurrency holders to keep their coins on an exchange. Instead, they can store them in a wallet on their phone or a dedicated device. Bitcoin likely still will be around in five to ten years, but the exchange of your choice will not be.

 

but I would correct it to: "they can store them in a wallet on their phone AND computer AND a dedicated device using a 2-of-3 multi-signature wallet":

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multisignature

 

 

[BenDeCosta]

1 minute ago, fdsa said:

 

this article has a good recommendation:

 

 

but I would correct it to: "they can store them in a wallet on their phone AND computer AND a dedicated device using a 2-of-3 multi-signature wallet":

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multisignature

 

 

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/uk-man-on-a-mission-to-find-long-lost-hard-drive-with-bitcoin-worth-280-million-101610965635075.html#:~:text=James Howells%2C a 35-year,more than %24280 million now.

[Pravda]

Saw this on reddit and thought it was funny... 

 

The US dollar looks like a sh*t coin from crypto's perspective



- 27 trillion in circulation

- unlimited supply cap

- only 1 node

- 1% of holders own 30%

- 25% supply minted in the last 6 months

- 38 million notes printed every day

- loses at least 3% of value every year

- in a bear market since its conception

[fdsa]

8 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/uk-man-on-a-mission-to-find-long-lost-hard-drive-with-bitcoin-worth-280-million-101610965635075.html#:~:text=James Howells%2C a 35-year,more than %24280 million now.

that's a great example of situation which would not happen if he created a 2-of-3 multi-signature wallet

[BenDeCosta]

8 minutes ago, fdsa said:

that's a great example of situation which would not happen if he created a 2-of-3 multi-signature wallet

 

You're talking about those wallets where two trusted people have to agree to the transaction? Screw that.

 

It's like having to have a person who was already predetermined and assigned with me and allowing me to buy a Burger King Meal. Absolutely bonkers.

 

Plus, his hard drive would still have ended up in a landfill site in Wales. For most people, those multi-signatory wallets are just too much hassle.

[fdsa]

4 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

You're talking about those wallets where two trusted people have to agree to the transaction? Screw that.

 

It's like having to have a person who was already predetermined and assigned with me and allowing me to buy a Burger King Meal. Absolutely bonkers.

 

Plus, his hard drive would still have ended up in a landfill site in Wales. For most people, those multi-signatory wallets are just too much hassle.

@GrandPapillon is that you? why you changed your nickname?

if not - well, there is another user on this forum which doesn't understand a thing in cryptocurrencies but still has his very important opinion about them

 

 

And for the thinking public out there: for the safety of your funds you should create a wallet that requires two or more signatures for spending money, for example both your computer and smartphone, in this way stealing your phone only or hacking your computer only will not result in loss of funds - thief/hacker will have to steal/hack both devices simultaneously.

For backup purposes there should be a third signature saved on hardware or paper wallet.

[BenDeCosta]

12 minutes ago, fdsa said:

@GrandPapillon is that you? why you changed your nickname?

if not - well, there is another user on this forum which doesn't understand a thing in cryptocurrencies but still has his very important opinion about them

 

 

And for the thinking public out there: for the safety of your funds you should create a wallet that requires two or more signatures for spending money, for example both your computer and smartphone, in this way stealing your phone only or hacking your computer only will not result in loss of funds - thief/hacker will have to steal/hack both devices simultaneously.

For backup purposes there should be a third signature saved on hardware or paper wallet.

 

They'll find a way around it, they always do. Here's my tip - put all your money into crypto. Next week, you can give us an update.

 

If someone has hacked your account, and hackers are always on the bleeding edge of technology, they'll find a way to get your money.