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Israel Will Compensate Thai Workers Hit by Missile Strike


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34 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

No they haven't, they always warned people to get out of the area before they struck (unlike Hamas). This is false and misinformation.

 

Note that the people at Amnesty International who are condemning Israel have Muslim sounding names, learn to appraise your sources of information please.

 

I condemn all violence, but if Hamas had not had the backing of Iran and been able to fire rockets into Israel, these deaths would not have happened. If someone walks up to you in the street and punches you in the face, are you not allowed to punch back. Sure you might knock out one of his teeth, but if he hadn't punched you, he wouldn't have lost a tooth. Whose fault is it, and why do you want us to feel sorry for the tooth?

 

You are wrong Ben, looks like the IDF did not warn the residents of an imminent bombing attack, contrary to brazen IDF lies, at least according to Amnesty International:

 

“Although the Israeli military has given no explanation of what military objectives it was targeting in these attacks, it is hard to imagine how bombing residential buildings full of civilian families without warning could be considered proportionate under international humanitarian law. It is not possible to use large explosive weapons, like aircraft bombs that have a blast radius of many hundreds of meters, in populated areas without anticipating major civilian casualties.

 

“By carrying out these brazen deadly attacks on family homes without warning Israel has demonstrated a callous disregard for lives of Palestinian civilians who are already suffering the collective punishment of Israel’s illegal blockade on Gaza since 2007.”

 

The Israeli army claims that it only attacks military targets and has justified airstrikes on residential buildings on that basis. However, residents told Amnesty International that there were no fighters or military objectives in the vicinity at the time of the attacks documented.

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/05/israelopt-pattern-of-israeli-attacks-on-residential-homes-in-gaza-must-be-investigated-as-war-crimes/

 

To use your analogy, yes you are allowed to punch back. In a proportionate manner. However, what the IDF is doing is punching people who have NOTHING to do with missile attacks. Rather it appears the IDF is following a policy of collective punishment of Palestinians in order to curb support for Hamas that way. That's what Amnesty International says.

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Apartheid: As defined in the United Nations (UN) International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1973), to which more than 100 states are a party. The definition was refined in Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (2002).

“inhumane acts...committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."

Isn't It interesting how most people, if they are being honest, would admit they would ardently support their own national sovereignty from coordinated mass immigration, yet do not support the Palestinians attempt at retaining theirs? Is it fair for countries like the United States, who say they support a U.N. sanctioned two state solution, to continue to support Zionist Israel's ongoing militant annexation of all of Palestine?

Israel’s indiscriminate use of modern, industrial weapons (funded primarily by the United States) to kill thousands of innocents, wound thousands more and make tens of thousands of families homeless is not a war: It is state-sponsored terror. And, while we of course should oppose the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Palestinians into Israel, as we would oppose suicide bombings, seeing them also as war crimes, a rational person becomes acutely aware of a huge disparity between the industrial violence carried out by Israel against innocent Palestinians and the minimal acts of violence capable of being waged by groups such as Hamas.

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11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't really get the focus on disproportionate power. Nobody has ever denied that, especially with the Iron Dome system. But what would people prefer? That as many Israelis or more be killed as Palestinians? 

 

No, I tell you what people would prefer, if the IDF would not kill children. People would prefer if the Israelis would not target civilians and not kill civilians. Because killing children is a war crime.

 

 

You don't get the focus on proportionality? Why not, it's a deeply ingrained principle in criminal law that self-defence has to be proportional to the threat faced.

 

The thing to note, which you undoubtedly know quite well, is that the children and civilians the IDF was killing the last few days in 2021 did not engage in missile launching or other attacks. They were sitting at home, they were innocent civilians.

 

And the Iron Dome system, as we saw is the most overhyped piece of trash anyone ever devised. Fat load of good it did Israel. They should call it "Cheese Dome", more holes than an Emmenthaler.

 

 

Edited by Logosone
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19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

No, I tell you what people would prefer, if the IDF would not kill children.  

 

 

 

If Hamas had the balls to fight the IDF face to face, children wouldn't die, and the issue would be settled very quickly. But they use civilians as a human shield. It's Hamas's fault that children are dying, but it's part of their plan. For a terrorist organisation, civilian deaths are just an unavoidable collateral damage, and I doubt they give a rat's ass about it. 

 

If you genuinely care about children dying, which seems to be the point that you like pushing, then tell Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel. Simple.

Edited by BenDeCosta
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6 hours ago, Kasset Tak said:

25-30 Thai farm workers die in Israel every year, on their death certificates it just says "Sudden Death Syndrome" so employers or Israeli insurance don't have to pay any compensations to their families! The real issue is that they have no or inadequate PPE when working with chemicals (Israel use most agro chemicals in the world!), and the owners of the farms knows and abuse this as those who complain about anything usually gets fired, arrested and ultimately deported!

So, at least the families of these two will get some kind of compensation from Israel!!!

So, that's about as many as die EVERY DAY on Thai roads & they get NO compensation!

Btw, shouldn't it be Hamas compensating the families?  It was their rocket which killed them?!!

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4 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

 Hamas fights against the very existence of the state of Israel. And this is the main problem. They leave no choice to the Israelis but to fight back with all possible means.

 

I saw an Arabic news station today where they spoke to a guy from Hamas, and he said that there is no half-way house, they will continue until all Jews are dead and Israel is destroyed. How anyone can get behind such rhetoric is beyond me. I will try and dig it up and post a link tomorrow.

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23 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

If Hamas had the balls to fight the IDF face to face, children wouldn't die, and the issue would be settled very quickly. But they use civilians as a human shield. It's Hamas's fault that children are dying, but it's part of their plan. For a terrorist organisation, civilian deaths are just an unavoidable collateral damage, and I doubt they give a rat's ass about it. 

 

Hamas fighters don't have a problem with courage.

 

Their problem is that the Israeli IDF has 15 billion USD to buy the latest US weapons, partly on credit, has developed Arrows and Iron Dome with US experts, has nuclear weapons thanks to French assistance, and they, Hamas, have to fight back with 300 USD rockets.

 

And we certainly know that the IDF gives a rat's ass about civilians dying, as evidenced by their repeated attacks on civilian housings and the killings of children, women and civilians.

Edited by Logosone
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2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Hamas fighters don't have a problem with courage.

 

Their problem is that the Israeli IDF has 15 billion USD to buy the latest US weapons, partly on credit, has developed Arrows and Iron Dome with US experts, has nuclear weapons thanks to French assistance, and they, Hamas, have to fight back with 300 USD rockets.

 

And we certainly now that the IDF gives a rat's ass about civilians dying, as evidenced by their repeated attacks on civilian housings and the killings of children, women and civilians.

 

So I will ask you for the third time.

 

Do you support an internationally recognised terrorist organisation?

 

Yes or no?

 

It's not a difficult question.

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Hamas Covenant

 

The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brother hood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

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4 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

Again, I am not defending Hamas, and when they kill civilians they are just as guilty as all war criminals are. I would be appalled if my own government would kill 61 children, or rather order air strikes that they know will potentially kill 61 children and go ahead regardless and then kill 61 children. 

 

How is it a "surgical air strike with prior warning" if 61 children are dead? Don't believe all the hype World Likud leader Danny Danon tells you, when Israeli politicians open their mouths, like else where truth goes in hiding.

 

Are you saying, BenDeCosta, that killing 61 children is not a war crime?

You cannot accuse Israel of the deaths of poor children.  Many Hamas rockets mis-fired and landed in Gaza.  You need to try and understand the mind-set of Hamas terrorists.  They have no respect for ANY human life & are only interested in killing & destruction.  They quite happily use their own children as shields and propaganda fodder, if it helps their case in any way.

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3 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

 Hamas fights against the very existence of the state of Israel. And this is the main problem. They leave no choice to the Israelis but to fight back with all possible means.

It makes the recent move by Biden to re-fund the Palestinians a bit perplexing doesn't it. The money ostensibly will be used for "cross-border projects between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, but might also include programs for Jews and Arabs living in Israel." 10 million dollars is a lot of nebulous money... maybe, just maybe this will have a collateral effect for Hamas? Just asking questions, just asking questions. 

 

Funding both sided of a conflict... Hmm.. where have we seen this tactic used before?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-sending-aid-palestinians-conflict-intensifies-77696074

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10 minutes ago, Greenhill said:

You cannot accuse Israel of the deaths of poor children.  Many Hamas rockets mis-fired and landed in Gaza.  You need to try and understand the mind-set of Hamas terrorists.  They have no respect for ANY human life & are only interested in killing & destruction.  They quite happily use their own children as shields and propaganda fodder, if it helps their case in any way.

 

And yet in a Thai Visa forum, there appears to be someone defending their deplorable behaviour, but won't admit it by answering a very simple and straightforward question, which he has dodged three times.

 

Any support for terrorism and genocide should be grounds for removing someone from this forum.

Edited by BenDeCosta
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11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

Hamas fighters don't have a problem with courage.

 

Their problem is that the Israeli IDF has 15 billion USD to buy the latest US weapons, partly on credit, has developed Arrows and Iron Dome with US experts, has nuclear weapons thanks to French assistance, and they, Hamas, have to fight back with 300 USD rockets.

 

And we certainly know that the IDF gives a rat's ass about civilians dying, as evidenced by their repeated attacks on civilian housings and the killings of children, women and civilians.

 The Iron Dome is indeed a big problem for Hamas terrorists. Just imagine all those thousands of rockets landing freely on Israel cities. The country would be burning and many thousands would be dead by now. Why cannot US supply those medieval mentality people with the more sophisticated weaponry in order they could achieve their final goal of annihilating the state of Israel? This world is so unfair!

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1 minute ago, Zikomat said:

 The Iron Dome is indeed a big problem for Hamas terrorists. Just imagine all those thousands of rockets landing freely on Israel cities. The country would be burning and many thousands would be dead by now. Why cannot US supply those medieval mentality people with the more sophisticated weaponry in order they could achieve their final goal of annihilating the state of Israel? This world is so unfair!

 

Don't worry, if AOC, Tlaib and Ilhan Omar have their way, Hamas will soon have some of the most advanced weapons that (American) money can buy.

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19 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

But you didn't highlight the "in the face of the oppressors" part. 

In their minds, their actions are justified because they believe they are the ones who are being oppressed. 

 

I am not taking sides as I don't know all the details of the entire conflict from the very beginning, which goes back decades. 

 

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22 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

So I will ask you for the third time.

 

Do you support an internationally recognised terrorist organisation?

 

Yes or no?

 

It's not a difficult question.

 

I do not support Hamas killing civilians. 

 

I do not really support Hamas, because they are extremist vile terrorists, in general, however, I do understand why they are fighting back. After all Israel is an artificial creation, created by money, Zionists and British and US support, that has only caused untold and never ending suffering and death and destruction in the region.

 

I don't have sympathy for Hamas just because they are the clear underdog, fighting with 300 USD rockets against a 15 billion US funded Israeli military, but also because I see their cause as just. They are the people whose land was stolen. They are the rightful owners of Palestine, not the Israelis.

 

And when they are engaged in a fight that is so uneven, against such overwhelming odds, you can't help but feel that it verges on the heroic (if only they did not themselves engage in atrocities against civilians), and you can't help but have sympathy for them.

 

I am pretty sure if someone claimed part of my homeland on the basis of a 3000 year old religious lunacy I would also join the militia that fights back. How can you not fight back when someone steals your house?  That after all was why these latest incidents happened, Palestinians were protesting being evicted to make way for Israeli settlers.

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8 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

I do not support Hamas killing civilians. 

 

I do not really support Hamas, because they are extremist vile terrorists, in general, however, I do understand why they are fighting back. After all Israel is an artificial creation, created by money, Zionists and British and US support, that has only caused untold and never ending suffering and death and destruction in the region.

 

I don't have sympathy for Hamas just because they are the clear underdog, fighting with 300 USD rockets against a 15 billion US funded Israeli military, but also because I see their cause as just. They are the people whose land was stolen. They are the rightful owners of Palestine, not the Israelis.

 

And when they are engaged in a fight that is so uneven, against such overwhelming odds, you can't help but feel that it verges on the heroic (if only they did not themselves engage in atrocities against civilians), and you can't help but have sympathy for them.

 

I am pretty sure if someone claimed part of my homeland on the basis of a 3000 year old religious lunacy I would also join the militia that fights back. How can you not fight back when someone steals your house?  That after all was why these latest incidents happened, Palestinians were protesting being evicted to make way for Israeli settlers.

 

Good comment. I appreciate where you are coming from. But firing makeshift, unguided rockets into a country is not going to solve anything.

 

However, one side is clearly trying to just get on with life, and accepts Arabs not only into their country but also into senior roles in government, whilst the other side are blood thirsty lunatics hell-bent on death and destruction.

 

They were offered a two-state solution but rejected it because they don't want peace, they want to wipe Israel off the map. I don't think they'll ever be able to resolve the issue until one side is wiped out.

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1 hour ago, Logosone said:

 

No, I tell you what people would prefer, if the IDF would not kill children. People would prefer if the Israelis would not target civilians and not kill civilians. Because killing children is a war crime.

 

 

You don't get the focus on proportionality? Why not, it's a deeply ingrained principle in criminal law that self-defence has to be proportional to the threat faced.

 

The thing to note, which you undoubtedly know quite well, is that the children and civilians the IDF was killing the last few days in 2021 did not engage in missile launching or other attacks. They were sitting at home, they were innocent civilians.

 

And the Iron Dome system, as we saw is the most overhyped piece of trash anyone ever devised. Fat load of good it did Israel. They should call it "Cheese Dome", more holes than an Emmenthaler.

 

 

 

Shroud waving serves no purpose at all, if Hamas did not continue their hate campaign by launching rockets into civilian targets then nobody would have been killed, the little kiddies you care about so much included. The iron dome you called trash has destroyed over 2400 missiles since 2011. Not perfect but some people seem to be disappointed in it's success. Without it the terrorists would have killed far more, the little kiddies as well.

Edited by clivebaxter
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1 minute ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

Good comment. I appreciate where you are coming from. But firing makeshift, unguided rockets into a country is not going to solve anything.

 

No that is the tragedy. The Palestinians can never defeat Israel, because the Muslims are too divided, there was a chance early on, but with French, British and American weapons the Israelis had air superiority and those attempts failed. Now the Palestinians are forever destined to fight their occupiers with stones, 300 USD rockets and periodic uprisings. However, continued terror on Israelis may well lead Israel to make concessions, it is conceivable. More likely however will be that the genocidal policies of Israel, which include massive large scale re-population of areas (the precise issue with this latest conflict ) will eventually succeed in eradicating the whole Palestinian people. But that process will take hundreds of years. It does not happen over night.

 

It is conceivable that Iran does build nuclear weapons, but even then it is inconceivable they will use them on Israel as it would mean the instant nuclear destruction of Iran.

 

So the suffering of the Palestinians is set to continue for hundreds of years I fear. Even if Israel were to make a fair and equitable attempt to divide the lands fairly that would be bound to fail. You can not make peace with the people who steal your homes and land. Palestinians will always feel that Palestine is their homeland and was stolen from them. And that is what happened, due to the British collusion with the Zionists, because Balfour had a religious delusion.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

 

Shroud waving serves no purpose at all, if Hamas did not continue their hate campaign by launching rockets into civilian targets then nobody would have been killed, the little kiddies you care about so much included. 

 

What your narrative omits is that the reason why the Palestinians protested was because Israel was getting ready to evict them from their homes to make way for Israeli settlers, which caused the protests, which caused the conflict.

 

So it is not enough for Israel to have most of Palestine, they want everything. Jerusalem and parts that were until recently still accepted as Palestinian. Their settlers purposely and provocatively go where they have not right to be. On land that is not theirs.

 

What are Palestinians supposed to do? Watch as settlers evict them from their own homes? You take people's homes, of course they will have to fight back. What other option do they have? Of course they hate the Israelis, they stole their homes and land. If the Zionists hat stayed in Britain, USA and Germany, also nobody would have been killed. But they came. And now all the time civilians are killed by the Israeli army.

Edited by Logosone
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11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 the genocidal policies of Israel, which include massive large scale re-population of areas   

 

There's a massive, massive difference between asking tenants who refuse to pay rent (i.e. squatters) to leave and genocide.

 

Israel has already offered a fair deal to the Palestinians, but they refused, because their long-term goal is total annihilation of the Jewish state, and certainly not peace.

 

This is why children are dying. But this discussion will probably still be going on in a hundred years time so I bid you good night.

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1 hour ago, BenDeCosta said:

 

There's a massive, massive difference between asking tenants who refuse to pay rent (i.e. squatters) to leave and genocide.

 

Israel has already offered a fair deal to the Palestinians, but they refused, because their long-term goal is total annihilation of the Jewish state, and certainly not peace.

 

This is why children are dying. But this discussion will probably still be going on in a hundred years time so I bid you good night.

 

We have moved on, since 1948 genocide is not just the act of genocidal killing, according to the UN definition it now also includes "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction". In other words, creating circumstances that do not support prolonged life. 

 

The ICTR provided guidance into what constitutes a violation of the third act. In Akayesu, it identified "subjecting a group of people to a subsistence diet, systematic expulsion from homes and the reduction of essential medical services below minimum requirement".

 

So yes, what Israel is doing by supporting Israeli settlers is most definitely genocide. And this was the exact reason why the Palestinians were protesting and what caused this conflict. 

 

"protests escalated over the threatened eviction of dozens of Palestinian families from the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah. The families have been embroiled in a long legal battle with ideological Jewish settlers who seek to acquire property in crowded Palestinian neighborhoods just outside the Old City. Israel portrays it as a private real-estate dispute, but the families' plight has attracted global attention. "

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/national-international/history-of-the-israel-palestinian-conflict-and-whats-behind-the-latest-clashes/2380768/

 

So nothing has changed. At all. Just as they bought land at the start to get rid of Palestinians, so are they doing the same thing now. It has been one long 80 year old conspiracy to steal the homes and lands of Palestinians, fuelled by American money, enabled by the British and supported by France and Germany. Unless we Western people address this stain of shame on our record we will have to live with the knowledge that we supported this evil scheme or kept silent about it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah_property_dispute#:~:text=The Sheikh Jarrah property dispute,Palestinian refugees and Israeli Jews.

 

 

Edited by Logosone
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3 hours ago, Zikomat said:

Hamas Covenant

 

The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brother hood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

I do not support this objective of Hamas, but It's interesting to note that the objective of an Israeli state in place of (most of what is left of- in particular the wealthiest parts) Palestine doesn't raise any concern from you. It looks like double standards.

 

Is it unlikely that, facing a policy of (quasi) obliteration of Palestine, some Palestinians may adhere to a concept of obliteration of Israel?

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52 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

 

 

So nothing has changed. At all. Just as they bought land at the start to get rid of Indians, so are they doing the same thing now. It has been one long 500 year old conspiracy to steal the homes and lands of Indians, fuelled by American money, enabled by the British and supported by France and Germany. Unless we Western people address this stain of shame on our record we will have to live with the knowledge that we supported this evil scheme or kept silent about it.

 

 

 

 I have edited your post a little bit. The westerners destroyed the whole civilization in America. What about this specific ‘stain of shame’? Does it worry you the same way the Palestinian problem does?  What is you practical solution for getting rid of this “shame on our record”? Should USA cease to exist? Mass suicide? Any other ideas?

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Logosone said:

"protests escalated over the threatened eviction of dozens of Palestinian families from the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah. The families have been embroiled in a long legal battle with ideological Jewish settlers who seek to acquire property in crowded Palestinian neighborhoods just outside the Old City. Israel portrays it as a private real-estate dispute, but the families' plight has attracted global attention.

From what I understand from the Israeli government's statements, these properties used to belong to Jewish owners before the war and have been seized after 1948, so so it is fair to give back these properties to the people who have acquired property rights from the original owners. Kind of right of return of Jews. What they forget to say is that the families who have been lodged in these properties by the U.N., were refugees whose properties have been seized after the war. Another example of double standards.

Edited by candide
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