Thai To Replace Ageing Fleet

[Sir Burr]

Hmmm.....they must have changed it then. Still....a relatively young fleet.

[cdnvic]

Hmmm.....they must have changed it then. Still....a relatively young fleet.

The A380s should have replaced a bunch of the 747s by now is the problem.

[think_too_mut]

Hmmm.....they must have changed it then. Still....a relatively young fleet.

The A380s should have replaced a bunch of the 747s by now is the problem.

Yes, they have a problem but of a different nature: 3 landing slots (no way to get more) at Heathrow while they need 4. So, 3x380 will replace 3xB747s and carry that extra capacity that is craving to be sold to the public.

And they need at least 9 of the machines to continue the schedule they have now.

Also on another profitable routes, Tokyo, LA, for example.

It's a scarcity of landing slots on the most lucrative routes , not age of the machines, that has forced SQ into the massive A380 deal.

Same with Qantas that makes 60% of their profits on SYD-LAX route. Two 747 flights a day replaced by two A380 flights would make a difference. Also to London.

[cdnvic]

But it is the delay in introducing the A380 that led them to hold onto some older 747s as long as they did.

Heathrow assigns more landing slots to quieter aircraft. That was the deal breaker for SQ as Boeing could not match the 380s larger quieter fans.

[think_too_mut]

But it is the delay in introducing the A380 that led them to hold onto some older 747s as long as they did.

It may have contributed, but nothing to do with SQ's eagerness to renew the fleet as soon as possible.

Heathrow assigns more landing slots to quieter aircraft. That was the deal breaker for SQ as Boeing could not match the 380s larger quieter fans.

None of the planes (A380, 787,A350, 747-800) flies commercially today, some still on the drawing board.

SQ (and many others) has wanted more slots for years.

Hathrow has nothing left to assign to anyone unless they expand or somebody leaves.

Pretty much like Narita. All slots long taken.

Nothing new has been assigned to SQ, nothing will be any time soon.

That's SQ's line and makes sense to me.

Just look at the imminent EU airlines consolidation. Someone may buy Alitalia or Iberia just for their landing slots at profitable destinations.

[ilyushin]

You're gonna have to do better than throw geocities sites at me if you want me to believe the info is credible.

This is the same hysterics that came with the 747, fly-by-wire, etc.

Barring the hugely successful B747, aviation history has not been kind to passenger aircraft behemoths. Now, once again, we shall have to wait and see.

[cdnvic]

But it is the delay in introducing the A380 that led them to hold onto some older 747s as long as they did.

It may have contributed, but nothing to do with SQ's eagerness to renew the fleet as soon as possible.

Heathrow assigns more landing slots to quieter aircraft. That was the deal breaker for SQ as Boeing could not match the 380s larger quieter fans.

None of the planes (A380, 787,A350, 747-800) flies commercially today, some still on the drawing board.

SQ (and many others) has wanted more slots for years.

Hathrow has nothing left to assign to anyone unless they expand or somebody leaves.

Pretty much like Narita. All slots long taken.

Nothing new has been assigned to SQ, nothing will be any time soon.

That's SQ's line and makes sense to me.

Just look at the imminent EU airlines consolidation. Someone may buy Alitalia or Iberia just for their landing slots at profitable destinations.

It was SQ that told Popular Science that they challenged Boeing and Airbus to make an aircraft with a quieter engine (due to Heathrow's policy) and the fact that the larger, quieter turbofan could only fit on the A380 was what made them choose it over a 747-X.

Edited July 5, 2007 by cdnvic

[think_too_mut]

But it is the delay in introducing the A380 that led them to hold onto some older 747s as long as they did.

It may have contributed, but nothing to do with SQ's eagerness to renew the fleet as soon as possible.

Heathrow assigns more landing slots to quieter aircraft. That was the deal breaker for SQ as Boeing could not match the 380s larger quieter fans.

None of the planes (A380, 787,A350, 747-800) flies commercially today, some still on the drawing board.

SQ (and many others) has wanted more slots for years.

Hathrow has nothing left to assign to anyone unless they expand or somebody leaves.

Pretty much like Narita. All slots long taken.

Nothing new has been assigned to SQ, nothing will be any time soon.

That's SQ's line and makes sense to me.

Just look at the imminent EU airlines consolidation. Someone may buy Alitalia or Iberia just for their landing slots at profitable destinations.

It was SQ that told Popular Science that they challenged Boeing and Airbus to make an aircraft with a quieter engine (due to Heathrow's policy) and the fact that the larger, quieter turbofan could only fit on the A380 was what made them choose it over a 747-X.

Interesting...so business has nothing to do with their choice?

Now we know, from "Popular Science"....it was SQ going green and minding the planet that made them order 380s?

[cdnvic]

Interesting...so business has nothing to do with their choice?

Having a higher priority in the allocation of landing slots isn't business?

[think_too_mut]

Interesting...so business has nothing to do with their choice?

Having a higher priority in the allocation of landing slots isn't business?

There are no landing slots to be allocated unless new runways are built. Heathrow, as many others, has zero available slots to allocate.

Also, if it is airport's specification, why would it be left to individual airlines to follow it up when oredring planes?

Or, as expected, aircraft manufacturers took a note and lined up to make quieter engines, regardless of airlines and plane sizes?

[cdnvic]

The airline industry is anything but static. Slots become available in a number of ways as airlines disappear, reduce schedules, change routes, fail to pay their landing fees, get banned from European skies, etc.

Heathrow has final authority on who and what can fly into those slots. Their policy is to assign the slots to quieter aircraft. An A340 would get priority over an IL-96 for instance. This has nothing to do with business, it has to do with the politics of airports and noise and people who move next to an airport expecting a quiet life.

I never said it was the only reason SQ bought the 380, of course economics played a big role, but it was the engine's "good neighbourliness" that put the 380 over the top. Argue with SQ over it, I'm just repeating what they said in the interview.

[think_too_mut]

The airline industry is anything but static. Slots become available in a number of ways as airlines disappear, reduce schedules, change routes, fail to pay their landing fees, get banned from European skies, etc.

Heathrow has final authority on who and what can fly into those slots. Their policy is to assign the slots to quieter aircraft. An A340 would get priority over an IL-96 for instance. This has nothing to do with business, it has to do with the politics of airports and noise and people who move next to an airport expecting a quiet life.

I never said it was the only reason SQ bought the 380, of course economics played a big role, but it was the engine's "good neighbourliness" that put the 380 over the top. Argue with SQ over it, I'm just repeating what they said in the interview.

All SQ knows now is that they have been losing equivalent of 1 B747 planeload a day to London and back for 2 years because A-380 is 2 years late.

The "undisclosed" compensation from Airbus probably covers for that and many more lost profits.

What happened is - Airbus froze airliners market the way Microsoft does to IT market with beta releases....blocking everyone else while it's struggling to deliver.

Along the way, under Boening 787 pressure they had to scrap A350 and start over again, losing billions invested in it's design.

And A340 is a dead horse. Last year only 15 were sold. Serious press even questions could the company survive at all.

The quiet engine did not fit under then 747, but may fit or another model of it, under it's new version.

Edited July 5, 2007 by think_too_mut

[cdnvic]

What happened is - Airbus froze airliners market the way Microsoft does to IT market with beta releases....blocking everyone else while it's struggling to deliver.

Neither part of that statement makes any sense. Nobody is forced to use either MS or Airbus. Nor can either of them block the market. Anyone signing a deal on a concept airplane has to expect the possibility of delays.

Along the way, under Boening 787 pressure they had to scrap A350 and start over again, losing billions invested in it's design.

And A340 is a dead horse. Last year only 15 were sold. Serious press even questions could the company survive at all.

The A340 has been rendered pretty much obsolete by increased ETOPS capabilities. It's sister-ship the A330 is basically identical save for the twin engine design, and continues to sell well.

The quiet engine did not fit under then 747, but may fit or another model of it, under it's new version.

That's just ridiculous. It would involved raising the undercarriage several feet and throwing off the balance of the aircraft by making it excessively top heavy.

I get it that you don't like the 380, but you're clutching at some very limp straws with this last post.

[think_too_mut]

That's just ridiculous. It would involved raising the undercarriage several feet and throwing off the balance of the aircraft by making it excessively top heavy.

I get it that you don't like the 380, but you're clutching at some very limp straws with this last post.

Hey man, understand they can make a quiet engine for new 747 and it is already like that?

Airbus CEO would not be quiet about that if it were not possile.

All he said about the new Boeing plane is "last lease of life out of 40 years old plane while our model has pretty long life ahead".

Edited July 5, 2007 by think_too_mut

[cdnvic]

Ok, I didn't understand that post at all

[Kaysfeld]

Boeing 787 looks set for another serious delay

Pressure is growing on Boeing to provide its revised production schedule for the 787, as speculation grows that the programme has suffered another lengthy delay.

Analyst Goldman Sachs has reported today that it does not expect the first 787 to be delivered before the third quarter of next year, representing another delay of at least six months.

Citing "sources", Goldman Sachs says that power-on of the first aircraft - scheduled for the end of March - has slipped until June, which will further delay the first flight and have a knock-on affect on the planned production ramp-up.

Goldman Sachs says final assembly of other development 787 airframes has been delayed, and that it expects the flight-test programme - slated to begin three months after power-on of the first aircraft - will last 11 months.

"Boeing continues to underestimate the amount of work required on the 787," says the analyst. It adds that it has lowered its 2009 787 production forecast from 80 to 50 aircraft.

The 787 programme is already around nine months behind schedule, with flight testing originally due to start in the third quarter of last year and first deliveries scheduled for May this year.

Boeing has already begun searching for interim aircraft capacity to help early 787 customers affected by the delay. Flight sources indicate that the latest delay to the programme could be even more severe than Goldman Sachs is warning.

Boeing says that when it announced the last 78 delay in January, it stated that first deliveries would move from 2008 to early 2009 and committed “to conducting a more thorough and far-reaching assessment related to a robust delivery schedule”.

The airframer says that the “assessment is ongoing and we have committed to communicating the results to our customers around the end of the first quarter”.

It adds that “our team is working hard toward achieving the near-term milestones as we have identified them”.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...ious-delay.html

[Kaysfeld]

Thai set to order 20 A321s and lease 14 787-9s

Thai Airways International has revised a fleet modernisation plan approved by its board last year and will seek government approval to order 20 Airbus A321s and lease 14 Boeing 787-9s.

The carrier's directors met on 16 January and agreed to "move ahead with the aircraft orders based on the 10-year plan that was approved by the board of directors in September 2007".

Since September, Thai has been seeking government approval to order 65 new aircraft as part of a $12.5 billion fleet expansion and modernisation. Approval was expected in late November, allowing it to negotiate firm purchase agreements with Airbus and Boeing.

But approval did not come in time, and there have since been elections in Thailand which have delayed the process because the party that won the most seats is still trying to put together a coalition.

Rather than continuing to wait for approval, Thai's board has decided the airline should lease 14 787-9s instead of buy them as originally planned because it will not be able to secure slots for delivery between 2012 and 2015 for purchases.

Executives said after the board meeting that the carrier expects to start seeking offers from aircraft lessors around the middle of this year and that the 787s will be used for "regional operations".

However, Thai is still planning to place orders directly with Airbus for 20 A321s, and its board has given approval for a downpayment to be made on the aircraft for deliveries between 2012 and 2017.

"The payment will be returned if the government does not approve the plan," it says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/...-14-787-9s.html

"The 787-9 and A321 aircraft will replace those retired aircraft from Thai's fleet and be utilised to accommodate future growth in the next 10 years."

No mention is made of additional aircraft orders. Thai's request to the government in September was for the purchase of 65 narrowbodies and widebodies for delivery by 2017 and it had said these would be in addition to more than 12 Airbus A380s and Airbus A330-300s already on order.

Thai said 45 of the 65 aircraft were intended for replacement and the rest for growth, and it was looking at Boeing 747-8s or additional A380s in the 300- to 500-seat size category Airbus A350s and/or 787s in the 250- to 350-seat category and A320-family aircraft and/or Boeing 737s in the 150- to 250-seat category.

Thai's current fleet of more than 80 aircraft includes Airbus A300-600s, A330-300s, A340-500/600s, Boeing 737-400s, 747-400s and 777-200/200ER/300s.

[tw25rw]

Managed to get a relatively cheap LHR-BKK-SYD ret ticket in business for April and I'm rather excited about it.. I'd written Thai off and was a dedicated EVA Elite customer until this offer was advertised..

If only EVA could coordinate their LHR-BKK-TPE flight with their TPE-BNE flight, I think they'd do well.