International Fraud - how to proceed

[Pete70]

29 minutes ago, Paul DS said:

So you invested 3rd hand in an unregulated generally untrusted investment with many crooks around, you knew you had no redress legally and now you are paying the price!

 

Crypto is mostly unregulated. Sites such as Binance are full of victims.

 

Bitcoin etc is fantasy land! Thr more it is popularised, the more scammers take your money.

 

It will be impossible to make a case...who with, contracts etc, what country, is it a regulated financial instrument? No, never!

 

Sorry, but the saying is "If it looks to good to be true, then it's a con!"

 

Good luck!

... please read the OP

[ericthai]

2 hours ago, Heng said:

May or may not have an effect, but to me there might be a slight choke point in 'threatening' (or maybe just going through with it) to inform Vietnamese immigration of his -I'm assuming you know your best friend's full name... a threat that includes a photo might be better too- activities in detail (in English and Vietnamese) as well as the UK embassy/consulate in Vietnam.    These are the institutions that foreigners still have to regularly access and often have a slight reverence/fear towards.    (fear of a visa for a loved one to get back to the UK getting rejected, fear of whatever the Viets have that is like our 90 day reporting hoop here in the LOS, etc.)

 

Low cost (you just need to take the time to write a few letters and look up the relevant contact addresses and email addresses) and might have a good payoff.   

you really think the Vietnamese immigration department is going to act on an email from someone? Come on, if that were the case anyone that gets upset with someone could just email immigration and make <deleted> up. 

 

You must realize that these offices get emails from crazy people all the time, it would get end up in spam with all the others. 

[vinny41]

If the op is planning to use the UK small claims court it is advisable to send a letter before action before contacting the court

Here is a good example with the contents required and the legal wording

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim-aSFAC8Q6Jqan

 

Nowdays Courts want to see that all avenues have been explored and going to the court is a last resort as all other means of resolution have failed

[Pete70]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If the op is planning to use the UK small claims court it is advisable to send a letter before action before contacting the court

Here is a good example with the contents required and the legal wording

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim-aSFAC8Q6Jqan

 

Nowdays Courts want to see that all avenues have been explored and going to the court is a last resort as all other means of resolution have failed

 

Thanks for that!

 

[Heng]

1 hour ago, ericthai said:

you really think the Vietnamese immigration department is going to act on an email from someone? Come on, if that were the case anyone that gets upset with someone could just email immigration and make <deleted> up. 

 

You must realize that these offices get emails from crazy people all the time, it would get end up in spam with all the others. 

 

It's a suggestion for someone who has virtually no moves chess wise.   The 'move' isn't necessarily meant to create a response from Vietnamese immigration or the UK consular section.   It's in part a no risk/cost gambit to perhaps produce a move or response from the other party. 

 

And I don't agree that these offices get well worded (I'm presuming) detailed letters describing a criminal act, that will (I'm presuming) be followed up with an actual criminal complaint in country in Vietnam, when the victim finds himself there on vacation one day.  If he's lucky, maybe the guy has participated in other criminal activities and this would be added to a file somewhere for follow up.  

 

Say if this person were a criminal in Thailand... how comfortable would he feel if he thought that someone was perhaps planting seeds of interest in the minds of local law enforcement?  Not having evidence against him is hardly a guarantee of not getting into trouble here, is it? ????

Edited July 5, 2021 by Heng

[asiam110]

You've got as much chance of getting your money back by legal means here as getting a non-zero return investing in Thaivisa's recently advertised hiyield crypto investement scheme.

 

You can only hope that your friend does find a way to repay but with legal threats after 34days you've probably not helped yourself, but Ive seen it countless times again again in Thailand, seemingly good people, that promise all intent to pay back eventually rationalize it to themselves that they dont have to "he hasnt got a kid like me", "he drives a new Lexus so fck him", "im having to drink chang whilst he orders top shelf so ill pay him back when I do that", "he wont miss it he's loaded", "my kids come first", "ive told him ill pay him back when i've got a penny to my name".. whilst taking their tenth pint.. It's a weird psychology sort of a self-defense of one's own character.

 

It's been educational for me witnessing it from the sidelines..  certainly cements the lesson 'dont lend money to friends'

Edited July 5, 2021 by asiam110

[Pete70]

2 minutes ago, asiam110 said:

You've got as much chance of getting your money back by legal means here as getting a non-zero return investing in Thaivisa's recently advertised hiyield crypto investement scheme.

 

You can only hope that your friend does find a way to repay but with legal threats after 34days you've probably not helped yourself, but Ive seen it countless times again again in Thailand, seemingly good people, that promise all intent to pay back eventually rationalize it to themselves "he hasnt got a kid like me", "he drives a new Lexus so fck him", "im having to drink chang whilst he orders top shelf so ill pay him back when I do that", "my kids come first" .. whilst taking their tenth pint..

 

You seem to think that 34 days is not enough time? I disagree.

 

This isn't 34 days of waiting in common mind set. This is 34 days of having broken all contact and being ignored.

 

Have you thought about that if it was your money? Your family's savings, that took years to accumulate? That would break your wife's heart if she knew they would be lost (she obviously knows they were invested)?

 

I think you haven't thought this through.

 

 

 

[asiam110]

1 minute ago, Pete70 said:

 

You seem to think that 34 days is not enough time? I disagree.

 

This isn't 34 days of waiting in common mind set. This is 34 days of having broken all contact and being ignored.

 

Have you thought about that if it was your money? Your family's savings, that took years to accumulate? That would break your wife's heart if she knew they would be lost (she obviously knows they were invested)?

 

I think you haven't thought this through.

 

 

 

 

Did you have a contract? I fully agree your friend is in the wrong here.  Yes, ideally you should of been repaid within 34 days,.. I'm saying reporting him to ActionFraud UK when you haven't got a leg to stand on legally isn't going to appeal to his sense of good nature - if he's lost the money through bad judgement of sending out money out of marketplace then he probably can't return 9k in 34 days. 

 

 

[Pete70]

Just now, asiam110 said:

 

Did you have a contract? I fully agree your friend is in the wrong here.  Yes, ideally you should of been repaid within 34 days,.. I'm saying reporting him to ActionFraud UK when you haven't got a leg to stand on legally isn't going to appeal to his sense of good nature - if he's lost the money through bad judgement of sending out money out of marketplace then he probably can't return 9k in 34 days. 

 

 

 

Again, I disagree.

 

I did not expect to be repaid in 34 days. I still don't today.

 

I expected to have a dialog, and in far less than that.

 

And again, I have his agreement, in writing digitally, that he'll deliver.

 

I have his agreement that he'll repay.

 

And then I have, well, him disappearing.

 

The one thing I do not comprehend is the silence. It doesn't suit him. It's not a logical consequence of our relationship nor our interactions.

 

It doesn't make any f'n sense.

 

[GrandPapillon]

if it was "important" savings, then it was very foolish to invest it that way, without securing some kind of written plan, or making clear that certain actions were to be taken

 

if the friend didn't want to go through that process, then that was the red flag and deal breaker

 

if someone doesn't want to put in writing what you agree orally, then something is up, and you have your answer

[asiam110]

Just now, Pete70 said:

 

Again, I disagree.

 

I did not expect to be repaid in 34 days. I still don't today.

 

I expected to have a dialog, and in far less than that.

 

And again, I have his agreement, in writing digitally, that he'll deliver.

 

I have his agreement that he'll repay.

 

And then I have, well, him disappearing.

 

The one thing I do not comprehend is the silence. It doesn't suit him. It's not a logical consequence of our relationship nor our interactions.

 

It doesn't make any f'n sense.

 

 

I hope it works out.  The closing of the dialog by him is alarming, I'm just suggesting threats at this stage probably won't help (especially since realistically enforcement is going be extremely difficult/costly if even possible), it's closing the door of possibly resolving this amicably.  I would be stress too, again hope it works out, give it some time there's nothing to be gained by emailing him again at 2am

[Pete70]

2 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

if it was "important" savings, then it was very foolish to invest it that way, without securing some kind of written plan, or making clear that certain actions were to be taken

 

if the friend didn't want to go through that process, then that was the red flag and deal breaker

 

if someone doesn't want to put in writing what you agree orally, then something is up, and you have your answer

 

Well, yes and no.

 

Sure, I would never have invested this into a random stock, or a random crypto or whatever. But because it was with a very highly trusted person (as I've said before and I will say again: I would have entrusted the live of my children to him without hesitating), I went ahead with it.

 

So in that sense, yes it was important. It was not something I would risk on a poker game (which I don't play anymore) or an investment at the local circus.

 

Yet, the way this has happened just isn't right.

 

 

[Pete70]

2 minutes ago, asiam110 said:

 

I hope it works out.  The closing of the dialog by him is alarming, I'm just suggesting threats at this stage probably won't help (especially since realistically enforcement is going be extremely difficult/costly if even possible), it's closing the door of possibly resolving this amicably.  I would be stress too, again hope it works out, give it some time there's nothing to be gained by emailing him again at 2am

 

Obviously, yes. I Concur.

 

This all has happened over a period of time. Not today. Today's time isn't really relevant other than me feeling more and more pressure of having to tell my wife, and in so doing, breaking her heart.

 

And well, she's pregnant, which makes me even less wanting to do that.

 

 

 

[Pete70]

1 minute ago, Pete70 said:

And well, she's pregnant, which makes me even less wanting to do that.

 

 

 

 

And yep, he knows that.

 

[Pete70]

and within the last 30 minutes, his daughter has blocked me now as well. I have contacted her this morning and let her know the situation.

 

She used to stay at our house during vacations.  We're not strangers.

 

So they're talking, and he's pushing whatever agenda he has onward to others.

 

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, Pete70 said:

 

Well, yes and no.

 

Sure, I would never have invested this into a random stock, or a random crypto or whatever. But because it was with a very highly trusted person (as I've said before and I will say again: I would have entrusted the live of my children to him without hesitating), I went ahead with it.

 

So in that sense, yes it was important. It was not something I would risk on a poker game (which I don't play anymore) or an investment at the local circus.

 

Yet, the way this has happened just isn't right.

 

 

 

you are 50% to blame,

 

specifically with very good friends, you want to avoid that kind of situation, so make sure you put everything in writing to avoid any further misunderstanding. You didn't even bother to do the basics, and maybe you weren't such a good friend on his end, hence why he didn't have a problem to cut you off completely after you went apesh*it over his silly mistakes. A lot of egos involved here.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Why Me]

Consider the funds lost, lesson learned fairly cheaply and move on. Pursue an allegation of fraud across international borders based on FB messages and no legal paper? Seriously?

 

You're understandably hopping mad now and, therefore, easy prey for unscrupulous lawyers and your own impulses. Which will cause you to send good money after bad while you stew in your own juices in the process. Chill. In a couple of months it'll all be a speck in the rear view mirror.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Why Me

[RJRS1301]

12 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

legally it does, and oral agreements are even stronger than written ones, above all in lower courts

 

but if he refused to ack the "oral agreement" in court, it's impossible to prove you had a contract, hence why we have "written" contract on the top of the "oral" one

 

lower courts will always ask for testimony of the oral agreements between each party to make sure what was the "understanding" and if the written contract was in contradiction with the oral agreement

 

you must know that if a lower court establishes that both parties had an oral agreement that was "violated" by the written agreement, the oral agreement will win over the written one. Always.

 

Written agreements have less "intrinsic" value than "oral" agreements, just so you know

 

most people assume the other way around, strangely.

All of that depends on the contract laws in any country in which the claim is lodged.

There can be no comparison to laws which may be place in the jurisdictions of court in USA (differing in each state)UK laws, and the precarious nature of interpretations of laws which may be in place in Thailand.

While it is true that contracts can be oral, and accepted in court claims, this in not necessarily true in all cases.

I am often unpleasantly surprised how few people do risk management planning especially when money and friendships are concerned. 

Instead of looking at potential profits, one should be looking at potential loss, and the effects on that, both financially and personally.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by RJRS1301

[Why Me]

1 hour ago, josthomz said:

If it were me, I can guarantee you I would recover the money, or at the very least cause him losses way bigger than the ones he caused me. (Starting with his property in the UK) 

The last thing the OP needs now is hare-brained ideas for revenge. If he tries something stupid and gets caught (a) he can kiss even the smallest chance of recovery good bye (b) he could be in legal jeopardy himself.

 

1 hour ago, josthomz said:

400,000 THB may seem like not a lot of money. But maybe it’s a major part of his savings. 

If the OP sunk a major part of his savings in a scheme to make money mining bitcoins then he has much bigger problems than treacherous friends.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Why Me

[Liverpool Lou]

14 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

15 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

How would he be "bringing IBM into disrepute"?   This has nothing to do with IBM, it's the OP who's trying to drag IBM into it, not the Briton.

Simply because if it were to make it into the mainstream media IBM would not  be happy, multinational companies do not like adverse news about senior employees hitting the news.

Nothing about this is "hitting the news".

[robblok]

18 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It looks just as much like he's been told that he will get his money back in due course...

"he told me "I’ll find the guy , you can have your money back...".

 

Perhaps the OP's "<deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner" <deleted> off his partner in Vietnam who may also have been screwed?

Sorry but sounds to me more like common English scum. I mean how he writes is exactly how many English speak with loads of curses. (the lower social strata of the English)

 

I feel that someone who has invested a lot of money in a venture with a friend is entitled to some updates and information. That is not being bossy or anything.

 

There is a chance that the partner has been screwed or that he is screwing his friend over. Its up to the English guy to prove he has been scammed. Should not be hard to do to provide a bank transfer that falls in the timeline to the scammer. Its not full proof but proof enough.

 

Then if its the case they both got scammed then I have more understanding for the English guy as i would be frustrated too. Still communicating without all those curses is far more normal.

 

Anyway its up to the English guy to prove he has been scammed.

 

But in reality i think the OP can forget his about his money.

[robblok]

7 hours ago, josthomz said:

 

It's difficult that someone you don't trust will scam you, because you don't trust him to begin with....

 

Sadly, scams happen when there is trust. Now, why would someone who can afford to lend you 5000 GBP at some point, who owns property in England, and who has a well paying job for IBM scam you for a measly 400,000 THB. Yes, I know. But 400,000 THB is a measly amount to pull a scam... 

 

... He could have been scammed himself, sure, that's a possibility. But it sounds like he has a lot of money, why wouldn't he be honest with you, tell you what's happened and come with a plan to fix that miss..... 

 

 

Something is "clearly rotten in the state of Denmark". My guess would be that he might have started taking drugs, or gambling and lost his capital that way, and that's why he pulled the scam on you for a measly 400,000 THB.

 

Chances of you ever recovering that money are minimal, I am afraid. The justice will do anything; and the lawyers will just tell you sweet nothings while billing you. 

 

Like I said in an earlier post, your only chances (albeit not likely to succeed either) are to personally go to Vietnam and try to find him, or have a local Vietnamese thug scare him real good.... Else, that money is gone for good.

It should be easy for the English guy to prove fraud. He stated he paid a scammer (unless the guy was really smart and has made a payment to a friend who is the scammer (setup a good scam), payment to someone would show that he has been scammed too.

 

I think legal means are hard to get money back unfortunately.

[Liverpool Lou]

8 hours ago, Pete70 said:

I think you haven't thought this through.

You think he hasn't thought this through?!   He's not the only one.

[Liverpool Lou]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

I feel that someone who has invested a lot of money in a venture with a friend is entitled to some updates and information. That is not being bossy or anything.

"That is not being bossy or anything".

Rather depends on exactly how the OP expressed himself to his mate, doesn't it?  That is something that is unknown in this one-sided thread.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"That is not being bossy or anything".

Rather depends on exactly how the OP expressed himself to his mate, doesn't it?  That is something that is unknown in this one-sided thread.

True, we hear it from one side but if you were the English guy would you not have made a copy of your bank book or bank transactions and print out details from that in a way the OP can confirm this (might be hard).

 

But if there are payment details then OP might be able to hire a lawyer to contact the bank to see if the proof of payment is real.

 

Its up to the English guy to prove this, and the OP has every right to ask about this. It seems the guy did not even do this. Then id be bossy too and with good right. 

 

There is a difference between saying I have been scammed and giving detailed information about the scam.

 

Traceable payment details would be a good start. 

 

The OP is the one who has the right to know the English guy is the one who has to prove he has been scammed. Would you just accept sorry I have been scammed or demand more information ?

 

Going to the bank and asking them to put in letter that a payment was made or give some data from the bank would be a good start.

Edited July 6, 2021 by robblok

[jomtienisgood]

19 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Maybe he has the equipment and is just too busy mining  at the moment

to get back to you.........but I am sure he will, he's a good friend......

regards worgeordie

Everyone knows there is no mobile signal coverage in mining sites.55555555 

[leba]

It seems that you are not friends anymore hahahahahaha...

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

19 hours ago, itsari said:

Why not go to the  small claims court  in the UK as your friend has assets in the UK that you could possibly recover your money from if successful with your claim .

He would need a full UK address for himself and the defendant unless a judge approves it otherwise, unlikley.

[mvdf]

20 hours ago, Pete70 said:

 

It would be done in the UK, and the UK only. Law enforcement in SEA is, well, doubtful in its efficacy, at best. I wouldn't even bother trying.

 

And yes, I'd be happy to come to a solution.

 

But tell me - what's a reasonable amount of time to just sit here and wait, not knowing, not having closure?

 

For me, it was a month, and I feel like I waited far too long already.

 

Again, I'm not saying I want to wait 2 weeks and get all my money back. Just communication. That's all I was waiting for.

 

And it never happened.

 

 

 

Well, he is lucky that you are quite lenient (yes i would use that word). Others like this guy were less forgiving. And that's baht.

 

 

 

[Pete70]

You know what I just realized.

 

There never was a purchase.

 

This whole thing was planned from the start - there never was any intention  to purchase anything. He just kept the money.

 

Why?

 

Isn't it obvious?

 

If there was a purchase (and he himself had been scammed) he would immediately produce a proof of purchase to show what happened. There is really only one reason why you would NOT produce any information on that: if it never happened!!

 

Man how was I so stupid.