Thai study finds 2 doses of Sinovac can’t beat Delta variant, AstraZeneca can

[misterjames]

5 minutes ago, gearbox said:

That what the docs essentially say in the "study" you enthusiastically embrace. 2 X Sinovac plus 1 X AZ is the best of the best under the sun 555.

Even if it were proven that it was 100% effective if mixed with a quality vaccine it still doesn't make Sinovac "superior" as the other poster suggested. 

 

That is laugable:D

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by misterjames

[Nojohndoe]

Quite sad there seems to be some elements of elation over this rare disclosure of disappointing news !

If as being claimed as so it exacerbates the  very real level of calamity that is likely to occur now.

Not only for Thailand but also the many countries whose only available choice of vaccine  made available has been Sinovac while others have hoarded excesses of purportedly better vaccine approaching past use by date ! .

 

 

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, impulse said:

 But isn't it interesting that, in 20-30 years they never discovered an application where the risks didn't exceed the benefits?

 

You mean in relation to vaccines?

[gearbox]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Like you I'm waiting for the second dose of AZ

 

AZ: 33% effective after one dose, 60% effective after two.

92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses

 

Pfizer: 33% effective after one dose, 88% effective after two. 

96% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses

 

Sinovac??

These questions or choices are not that relevant in the developed world. Almost every country is dumping AZ and using the mRNA vaccines. Sinovac is not used. The Australian AZ stock would probably go to Papua New Guinea, Indonesia and the countries around.

 

It is not relevant to the developing world either. As there are shortage of vaccines they'll grab any which is available.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, gearbox said:

These questions or choices are not that relevant in the developed world. Almost every country is dumping AZ and using the mRNA vaccines. Sinovac is not used. The Australian AZ stock would probably go to Papua New Guinea, Indonesia and the countries around.

 

It is not relevant to the developing world either. As there are shortage of vaccines they'll grab any which is available.

We're in Thailand so very relevant

[misterjames]

6 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

If as being claimed as so it exacerbates the  very real level of calamity that is likely to occur now.

Some of us saw it coming a while back and warned about it, it's not elation it's vindication.

6 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

while others have hoarded excesses of purportedly better vaccine approaching past use by date ! .

AZ lasts 6 months when stored in a refrigerator and it was Thailand that refused to join COVAX don't try and blame the west for that.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by misterjames

[rabas]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Well, a natural experiment is about to take place in Phuket, where at least 57% of the population has been vaccinated twice, mostly, I believe, with Sinovac. It will be interesting to see how it fares vs. the rest of the country.

Lol, not a balanced study if they isolate the test group, and heavily expose the control group to all the bad strains in Bangkok. 

 

Of course, people in isolation will have far few infections.

 

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, rabas said:

Lol, not a balanced study if they isolate the test group, and heavily expose the control group to all the bad strains in Bangkok. 

 

Of course, people in isolation will have far few infections.

 

Also as I mentioned in the other thread, it was the under 60's who received the Sinovac and the latest rounds has been mostly with AZ for over 60's and also under 60's. No official numbers on breakdown of how many Sinovac or how many AZ have been administered so drawing any conclusions on how this pans is very difficult.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[Scott]

15 minutes ago, gearbox said:

I don't know which cocktail of vaccines would be the best mix, but with Pfizer seeking approval for a third shot, and most of the rest mulling the same, looks like a third shot is likely.  Probably even a forth later.

Pfizer wants to give a booster but the CDC and FDA say 'no, not necessary', at least not now: 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/health/pfizer-waning-immunity-bn/index.html

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/07/08/1014438902/despite-new-covid-variants-cdc-says-you-dont-need-any-booster-doses-right-now

 

With limited supplies of vaccine world wide, it's best that we use vaccine efficiently.  It's not very  efficient to fully vaccinate with one vaccine and then dipping into supplies of another vaccine.  

 

[misterjames]

3 minutes ago, rabas said:

Lol, not a balanced study if they isolate the test group, and heavily expose the control group to all the bad strains in Bangkok. 

 

Of course, people in isolation will have far few infections.

 

Exactly the only people visiting Phuket will be people that have been double vaccinated and tested many times, how this poster thinks this will prove anything is beyond me.

[Nickelbeer]

I will not be vaccinated with ANYTHING made in China. Phizer, Johnson and Johnson, Moderna or Astra Zeneca for me.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, rabas said:

Lol, not a balanced study if they isolate the test group, and heavily expose the control group to all the bad strains in Bangkok. 

 

Of course, people in isolation will have far few infections.

 

I don't know what you mean by balanced. The Delta strain is now predominant. You can't seriously believe that it can be kept out of Phuket. So I don't know what you mean by isolation. Are the residents of Phuket prohibited from leaving the island? I don't think so.  And given it's transmissiblity  the virus should spread very quickly.   And given it's transmissiblity  the virus should spread very quickly whether or not people are isolated. Given that you have a resident population of at least 400,000 that's plenty big for a valid study to compare mortality and serious symptoms.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, misterjames said:

This is what I have been saying for a long time but the pro Sinovac posters on here, just continually avoid the Delta part and post endless links to so called "legit" Alpha variant "studies".

 

 

What you've been saying is that Sinovac is there's no proof that Sinovac clinically effective in mitigating hospitialization and deaths even against other variants.  As I've pointed out earlier, this study is about immunization re the Delta variant.. In other words it doesn't address the question of whether or not Sinovac can lessen severe symptoms and lower mortality.. Only clinical results can establish that. And Phuket is as nearly perfect as a natural experiment can be to ascertain that.

[gearbox]

20 minutes ago, misterjames said:

Even if it were proven that it was 100% effective if mixed with a quality vaccine it still doesn't make Sinovac "superior" as the other poster suggested. 

 

That is laugable:D

 

 

You can look at it as a cocktail. Take for example Bloody Mary. Neither the vodka or the tomato juice are that good to drink separately, but when mixed, the mix becomes very drinkable.

 

Damn, if these docs are right, I could get 2 Sinovac shots, then get in Europe one AZ shot and become invincible. Should be very easy to do - according to the TVF posters nobody wants Sinovac here, and every country in Europe is dumping AZ, so plenty of vaccines for me 555

 

[misterjames]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Only clinical results can establish that. And Phuket is as nearly perfect as a natural experiment can be to ascertain that.

You think having a load of double vaccinated (triple tested) travellers on a quarantined island is the perfect experiment to study the effectiveness of a vaccine? That's a joke surely?

[misterjames]

4 minutes ago, gearbox said:

You can look at it as a cocktail. Take for example Bloody Mary. Neither the vodka or the tomato juice are that good to drink separately, but when mixed, the mix becomes very drinkable.

Yeh but saying Sinovac is superior because it works when mixed with AZ is like saying tomato juice is the a superior alcoholic drink to vodka:D

[placeholder]

Just now, misterjames said:

You think having a load of double vaccinated (triple tested) travellers on a quarantined island is the perfect experiment to study the effectiveness of a vaccine? That's a joke surely?

Did you not read the part where I wrote "Given that you have a resident population of at least 400,000 that's plenty big for a valid study to compare mortality and serious symptoms."

[misterjames]

Just now, placeholder said:

Did you not read the part where I wrote "Given that you have a resident population of at least 400,000 that's plenty big for a valid study to compare mortality and serious symptoms."

Yes but they will only be mixing with fully double vaccinated tourists on a closed of island how is that " perfect as a natural experiment can be" as you stated? 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

Yes but they will only be mixing with fully double vaccinated tourists on a closed of island how is that " perfect as a natural experiment can be" as you stated? 

You honestly believe that there is no delta variant on the island already? events have already proved that not to be the case. And if the sinovac vaccine is ineffective at immunization, what's to stop it from spreading rapidly throughout the island to all those who have been vaccinated with Coronavac? What have tourists got to do with this?

[misterjames]

10 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You honestly believe that there is no delta variant on the island already? events have already proved that not to be the case. 

Irrelevant, my point is it is far from "as perfect as a natural experiment can be" quite the opposite in fact it's a completely unnatural environment to conduct a study on the effectiveness of a vaccine.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by misterjames

[rbkk]

33 minutes ago, misterjames said:

Some of us saw it coming a while back and warned about it, it's not elation it's vindication.

AZ lasts 6 months when stored in a refrigerator and it was Thailand that refused to join COVAX don't try and blame the west for that.

 

I think it was he the Unspeakable One, not the people of Thailand, that refused to join COVAX. 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

Irrelevant, my point is it is far from "as perfect as a natural experiment can be" in fact it's far from perfect quite the opposite it's a completely unnatural environment to conduct a study on the effectiveness of a vaccine.

 

It's clear you don't understand what a "natural experiment is"

"A natural experiment is an empirical study in which individuals (or clusters of individuals) are exposed to the experimental and control conditions that are determined by nature or by other factors outside the control of the investigators. The process governing the exposures arguably resembles random assignment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_experiment#:~:text=A natural experiment is an,exposures arguably resembles random assignment.

It's precisely because it deviates so much from an ordinary situation that makes it possible to be an experiment. If it were the same in regards to vaccination levels as the rest of Thailand, there would be no opportunity for an experiment.  So explain why a populatiion with a much higher rate of vaccination than anywhere else in the country won't provide a profound insight into the effectiveness of the Sinovac vaccine as regards immunization, severe symptoms, and mortality.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You honestly believe that there is no delta variant on the island already? events have already proved that not to be the case. And if the sinovac vaccine is ineffective at immunization, what's to stop it from spreading rapidly throughout the island to all those who have been vaccinated with Coronavac? What have tourists got to do with this?

What percentage of residents have been vaccinated with Sinovac and what percentage with AZ?

 

The priority group for vaccinations weeks ago with Sinovac was the under 60's primarily those in the tourism industry, I visited two centers twice and all young people from very early twenties were the majority to the top max 59 years old.

 

Since then AZ has been primarily used but that has been mainly for the over 60's although still some for under 60's expats and Thai's.

 

There are no official figures on how many AZ or how many Sinovac have been administered. 

 

Without all the above data to hand then drawing any conclusions on any particular vaccine be that Sinovac or AZ is reckless.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

What percentage of residents have been vaccinated with Sinovac and what percentage with AZ?

 

The priority group for vaccinations weeks ago with Sinovac was the under 60's primarily those in the tourism industry, I visited two centers twice and all young people from very early twenties were the majority to the top max 59 years old.

 

Since then AZ has been primarily used but that has been mainly for the over 60's although still some for under 60's expats and Thai's.

 

There are no official figures on how many AZ or how many Sinovac have been administered. 

 

Without all the above data to hand then drawing any conclusions on any particular vaccine be that Sinovac or AZ is reckless.

I assume someone has all that data. And in a way it's even better if it's age segregated. So it should be easier to compare vaccinated under-60's in Phuket to those elsewhere.

[spidermike007]

The dim ones have invited disaster by considering savings over quality. They are essentially saying to the masses, you are not worth it. 

 

Well, bad decision on the part of the tiny circus clowns. Likely this ill advised move of picking the Sinojunk will haunt you for years to come. It may even be your legacies. 

[misterjames]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I assume someone has all that data. 

Sounds perfect:D

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

Sounds perfect:D

Thanks for the endorsement.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I assume someone has all that data. And in a way it's even better if it's age segregated. So it should be easier to compare vaccinated under-60's in Phuket to those elsewhere.

Absolutely, the officials will have it all and will no doubt be carrying that study out, if they were not then they are missing a good opportunity. However until the data is released for us to judge any outcome based on either Sinovac or AZ is impossible.

[misterjames]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Absolutely, the officials will have it all and will no doubt be carrying that study out, if they were not then they are missing a good opportunity. However until the data is released for us to judge any outcome based on either Sinovac or AZ is impossible.

I'm all for studies but I can't help wondering how an island full of tourists that have taken double doses (of various different western vaccines) that have been triple tested (and proved negative or quarantined on arrival) on a sealed off island will tell us anything about the efficacy of Sinovac?

 

Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't make any sense to me? Maybe someone can enlighten me?

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by misterjames

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

I'm all for studies but I can't help wondering how an island full of tourists that have taken double doses (of various different western vaccines) that have been triple tested (and proved negative or quarantined on arrival) on a sealed off island will tell us anything about the efficacy of Sinovac?

 

Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't make any sense to me? Maybe someone can enlighten me?

 

I don't think you're missing anything, I agree its hardly an ideal environment because as you say incoming international tourists will be double dosed plus take 3 pcr tests. How they figure that into a study I have no idea to be honest? Plus you also then have all the other issues I mentioned before.