Pandemic of the unvaccinated????

[248900_1469958220]

Can they really base vaccine mandates with 100% certainty on these vaccines being 100% effective against hospitalisation....and spreading? I like to be able to question things. I should be allowed to. 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/6/nearly-35-percent-of-uk-delta-hospitalisations-fully-vaccinated?fbclid=IwAR2sbw-ldY8vHBliqR9w-nyKglTlJsFmWbnhVkCy8qbpBKDze0r8w_beBGQ

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Well, of course it's generally admirable to question things. But make sure the things you question are real. Who is claiming that "with 100% certainty on these vaccines being 100% effective against hospitalisation....and spreading?"

And since you're so keen on questioning things, you might want to look carefully at that 35% statistic. By age, which is the group most likely to be vaccinated? Least likely? What does that tell you?

And what about hospital mortality rates of the unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated?

Do you have any questions about these things?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

If vaccines were not effective at reducing hospitalizations, the number of vaccinated persons hospitalized would reflect their percentage within the general population, all else being equal. Using the number of hospitalized patients cited in the al Jazeera article as well as the 75% vaccination rate, this would mean that there would be about 1,100 vaccinated persons in hospital. Since the number mentioned for vaccinated patients in hospital is 512, it is probably safe to conclude that the vaccines have significantly reduced hospitalizations. But all else is probably not equal and one would need to factor in vaccination rates in age groups and perhaps also by general health. If such factors were taken into account, it would likely be the case that the effect of the vaccine on reducing hospitalization is even more pronounced.

 

Missing from the article is information on fatalities and the degree of severity of illness in the vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

 

I don't think many credible medical professionals are stating that vaccines reduce the possibility of hospitalization by 100% or that they are 100% effective in preventing transmission.

 

I do understand that there are concerns that the vaccines are only approved for emergency use and that possible long-term consequences remain unknown. But that's kind of like raising the issue of long-term consequences of using fire extinguishers when your house is on fire. 

[DrPhibes]

And as far as those bible thumping redneck Trumpette antivaxers (I normally don't point fingers or make such generalizations, but in this case...), they have nothing to fear.  The variant coming code named "The Rapture" will solve all their problems ????

[ArcticFox]

Statements like Covid-19 is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" that are not backed by multiple published, peer-reviewed, independent studies are political statements, not scientific fact. 
Supply links to the studies, not news articles claiming third-party or 'expert' knowledge.  Without independent, unbiased analysis to back that claim, it's fear-mongering with the purpose of polarizing the population and possibly inciting the vaccinated to engage in forms of action against the unvaccinated (or assumed unvaccinated) that could culminate in acts of violence. 

However with that said, I find it very disconcerting when I keep hearing in the news that anecdotally fully vaccinated people are showing up Covid-positive no less requiring hospitalization. 
And as for the claim that the vaccines decrease symptom severity that claim, from what I can tell, is based on the vaccine manufacturer's own studies.  It's a bit like believing the fox when he says he'll take good care of the hen-house.  Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Like vaccine safety and efficacy, I'll believe the claim when it's substantiated with independent medium and long-term studies.

[248900_1469958220]

6 minutes ago, ArcticFox said:

Statements like Covid-19 is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" that are not backed by multiple published, peer-reviewed, independent studies are political statements, not scientific fact. 
Supply links to the studies, not news articles claiming third-party or 'expert' knowledge.  Without independent, unbiased analysis to back that claim, it's fear-mongering with the purpose of polarizing the population and possibly inciting the vaccinated to engage in forms of action against the unvaccinated (or assumed unvaccinated) that could culminate in acts of violence. 

However with that said, I find it very disconcerting when I keep hearing in the news that anecdotally fully vaccinated people are showing up Covid-positive no less requiring hospitalization. 
And as for the claim that the vaccines decrease symptom severity that claim, from what I can tell, is based on the vaccine manufacturer's own studies.  It's a bit like believing the fox when he says he'll take good care of the hen-house.  Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Like vaccine safety and efficacy, I'll believe the claim when it's substantiated with independent medium and long-term studies.

Good points. T

[ArcticFox]

51 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

And as far as those bible thumping redneck Trumpette antivaxers (I normally don't point fingers or make such generalizations, but in this case...), they have nothing to fear.  The variant coming code named "The Rapture" will solve all their problems ????

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
Caveat.  I could care less about Trump as well as most of the swill who gravitate to the top of the political food chain.  Most devout Christians in this world are not 'bible-thumping, anti-vaxx, Trump supporters.'

[DrPhibes]

5 minutes ago, ArcticFox said:

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
Caveat.  I could care less about Trump as well as most of the swill who gravitate to the top of the political food chain.  Most devout Christians in this world are not 'bible-thumping, anti-vaxx, Trump supporters.'

Now now, if you read it correctly, the description is of a small minority subset of Trump followers.  Does not at all attack the entire Christian faith.

[248900_1469958220]

So is it reasonable to NOT be an anti vaxxer BUT be an 'experimental' vaccine sceptic? To ask questions about its safety? To ask questions about is efficacy? Or, like Youtube is doing , do we shut down discussion of anything that questions the vaccine narrative? I am curious. 

[248900_1469958220]

So, I ignore ALL news that is not fully in support of the vaccine. I dont even read it....its 'fake news' Such as these articles: 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-signals-on-vaccines-potency-against-delta-strain/

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

Edited August 9, 2021 by 248900_1469958220

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

Statements like Covid-19 is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" that are not backed by multiple published, peer-reviewed, independent studies are political statements, not scientific fact. 
Supply links to the studies, not news articles claiming third-party or 'expert' knowledge.  Without independent, unbiased analysis to back that claim, it's fear-mongering with the purpose of polarizing the population and possibly inciting the vaccinated to engage in forms of action against the unvaccinated (or assumed unvaccinated) that could culminate in acts of violence. 

However with that said, I find it very disconcerting when I keep hearing in the news that anecdotally fully vaccinated people are showing up Covid-positive no less requiring hospitalization. 
And as for the claim that the vaccines decrease symptom severity that claim, from what I can tell, is based on the vaccine manufacturer's own studies.  It's a bit like believing the fox when he says he'll take good care of the hen-house.  Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Like vaccine safety and efficacy, I'll believe the claim when it's substantiated with independent medium and long-term studies.

100% incorrect. You really need a better source for your news.

 

Vaccines are our only way out of this mess. Being a covid sceptic helps no one.

[248900_1469958220]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

100% incorrect. You really need a better source for your news.

 

Vaccines are our only way out of this mess. Being a covid sceptic helps no one.

I find statements like that unbelievable. 

[overt2016]

2 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
Caveat.  I could care less about Trump as well as most of the swill who gravitate to the top of the political food chain.  Most devout Christians in this world are not 'bible-thumping, anti-vaxx, Trump supporters.'

Why not?????

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

I find statements like that unbelievable. 

Anti vaxxer?

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

So is it reasonable to NOT be an anti vaxxer BUT be an 'experimental' vaccine sceptic? To ask questions about its safety? To ask questions about is efficacy? Or, like Youtube is doing , do we shut down discussion of anything that questions the vaccine narrative? I am curious. 

The better vaccines are not experimental. Only anti vaxxers would say this.

 

Please, read this.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/opinion/covid-vaccine-safety.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20210804&instance_id=37008&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=80027960&segment_id=65288&user_id=1298cdda864738dcf5f5cb52747197da

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

So is it reasonable to NOT be an anti vaxxer BUT be an 'experimental' vaccine sceptic? To ask questions about its safety? To ask questions about is efficacy? Or, like Youtube is doing , do we shut down discussion of anything that questions the vaccine narrative? I am curious. 

Well, you are the party who claimed that 

 

6 hours ago, ArcticFox said:

Statements like Covid-19 is a "pandemic of the unvaccinated" that are not backed by multiple published, peer-reviewed, independent studies are political statements, not scientific fact. 
Supply links to the studies, not news articles claiming third-party or 'expert' knowledge.  Without independent, unbiased analysis to back that claim, it's fear-mongering with the purpose of polarizing the population and possibly inciting the vaccinated to engage in forms of action against the unvaccinated (or assumed unvaccinated) that could culminate in acts of violence. 

However with that said, I find it very disconcerting when I keep hearing in the news that anecdotally fully vaccinated people are showing up Covid-positive no less requiring hospitalization. 
And as for the claim that the vaccines decrease symptom severity that claim, from what I can tell, is based on the vaccine manufacturer's own studies.  It's a bit like believing the fox when he says he'll take good care of the hen-house.  Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Like vaccine safety and efficacy, I'll believe the claim when it's substantiated with independent medium and long-term studies.

Not everything needs a multiple peer backed study. In fact, government health agencies typically don't publish in peer-reviewed journals.  Statistics from hospitals that report to the CDC are very straightforward data. And what does that data show?

99.5% of COVID-19 deaths in the US are now in unvaccinated people, CDC head says

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-coronavirus-deaths-nearly-all-among-unvaccinated-cdc-head-2021-7

 

No amount of analysis is going to explain that percentage away.

Clearly, you're just obfuscating to defend a position that is clearly untenable.

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

I find statements like that unbelievable. 

Of course you do. After all you are the party who wrote this:

"Can they really base vaccine mandates with 100% certainty on these vaccines being 100% effective against hospitalisation....and spreading?"

What is the use of replying to someone who either can't even get the basic facts straight or, as is more likely the case, simply makes up falsehoods to support their stance.

 

[DavisH]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, you are the party who claimed that 

 

Not everything needs a multiple peer backed study. In fact, government health agencies typically don't publish in peer-reviewed journals.  Statistics from hospitals that report to the CDC are very straightforward data. And what does that data show?

99.5% of COVID-19 deaths in the US are now in unvaccinated people, CDC head says

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-coronavirus-deaths-nearly-all-among-unvaccinated-cdc-head-2021-7

 

No amount of analysis is going to explain that percentage away.

Clearly, you're just obfuscating to defend a position that is clearly untenable.

 

...and all ICU admissions in Australia at the moment are primarily the unvaccinated and a few having had one dose (az or Pfizer). Thailand just gave stats today that mirror those results, but in terms of deaths. The writing is on the wall. I don't think we need peer reviewed papers to point out those results. Of course, the vaccinated can become infected (juat head thr neighbour's brother got infected, even though he is fully vaccinated). We know this already, but they generally have fewer and less severe symptoms. 

 

[248900_1469958220]

This is an interesting article. It would seem many, many more people in Jakarta have already had Covid than was originally thought. I suspect that Covid never disappeared from Thailand but obviously the testing got ramped up. If the true number of infections were known, the infection fatality rate could come down VERY significantly. As it stands, for me it seems I would have above a 99.7 % chance of not dying from Covid. That, I think it could be fair to say is an overestimate, possibly a significant one at that. 

 

No? 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/covid-19-antibodies-jakarta-almost-half-of-population/100285384

[cdemundo]

7 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

So is it reasonable to NOT be an anti vaxxer BUT be an 'experimental' vaccine sceptic? To ask questions about its safety? To ask questions about is efficacy? Or, like Youtube is doing , do we shut down discussion of anything that questions the vaccine narrative? I am curious. 

The thing is, like it or not, the experimental vaccines have now been given to millions of people. There has never been a trial to my knowledge that even included 100,000 subjects.

There is more data available now than for any medicine or drug that went through complete approval.

 

 

[Ryan754326]

16 hours ago, DavisH said:

...and all ICU admissions in Australia at the moment are primarily the unvaccinated and a few having had one dose (az or Pfizer). Thailand just gave stats today that mirror those results, but in terms of deaths. The writing is on the wall. I don't think we need peer reviewed papers to point out those results. Of course, the vaccinated can become infected (juat head thr neighbour's brother got infected, even though he is fully vaccinated). We know this already, but they generally have fewer and less severe symptoms. 

 

I agree that the vaccines seem to be doing a good job of protecting people from serious symptoms and death, but the part I don’t understand is why so many people care whether anyone else gets vaccinated or not. As you say, the vaccinated can still be infected, which means the virus is replicating inside their body, and if the virus is replicating, then isn’t it just as possible that it could mutate in that vaccinated person? This assertion that unvaccinated people are solely responsible for any new variants doesn’t hold up in my mind, but maybe there’s something I’m missing here. 
 

The point is, that if you’re vaccinated, you are protected as well as possible for the time being, but the variants will continue to pop up, and most experts agree that covid isn’t going away, and that we’ll have to learn to live with it. The way it looks to me, is that the people who can’t deal with their own fears want to control other peoples behavior in order to soothe their own anxieties. If we let the most fearful in society dictate the policies, then I think we’ll be wearing masks and avoiding social contact forever, regardless of what percentage of the Earth’s population we manage to vaccinate.  

[frantick]

Vaccinated can transmit. Unvaxed can transmit. Thus vaccine passports are irrelevant. Let us "waiters" choose our own risks.

 

Reminds me of helmet laws for adults. Always those "we need to protect others" types sticking their ideals into other's lives. We KNOW helmets protect, ok? And don't bring up the hospital resources for accident victims, dying young saves more resources than living to a ripe old age. Let me die of my own choices.

[Jeffr2]

7 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

I agree that the vaccines seem to be doing a good job of protecting people from serious symptoms and death, but the part I don’t understand is why so many people care whether anyone else gets vaccinated or not. As you say, the vaccinated can still be infected, which means the virus is replicating inside their body, and if the virus is replicating, then isn’t it just as possible that it could mutate in that vaccinated person? This assertion that unvaccinated people are solely responsible for any new variants doesn’t hold up in my mind, but maybe there’s something I’m missing here. 
 

The point is, that if you’re vaccinated, you are protected as well as possible for the time being, but the variants will continue to pop up, and most experts agree that covid isn’t going away, and that we’ll have to learn to live with it. The way it looks to me, is that the people who can’t deal with their own fears want to control other peoples behavior in order to soothe their own anxieties. If we let the most fearful in society dictate the policies, then I think we’ll be wearing masks and avoiding social contact forever, regardless of what percentage of the Earth’s population we manage to vaccinate.  

Variants will keep popping up until more are vaccinated. The current increase in cases in many countries with high vaccination rates is primarily among the unvaccinated.

 

If we're going to get this behind us, get the jab. It's the right thing to do.

[Jeffr2]

6 hours ago, frantick said:

Vaccinated can transmit. Unvaxed can transmit. Thus vaccine passports are irrelevant. Let us "waiters" choose our own risks.

 

Reminds me of helmet laws for adults. Always those "we need to protect others" types sticking their ideals into other's lives. We KNOW helmets protect, ok? And don't bring up the hospital resources for accident victims, dying young saves more resources than living to a ripe old age. Let me die of my own choices.

The unvaccinated will allow variants to keep cropping up. 

 

You remember all the battles to get helmet laws enacted?  Seat belt laws?  Drunk driving laws?

 

Seems anti vaxxers fall into these groups. If you don't want to get vaccinated, fine. Just pay your own medical bills. LOL

[frantick]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

The unvaccinated will allow variants to keep cropping up. 

 

You remember all the battles to get helmet laws enacted?  Seat belt laws?  Drunk driving laws?

 

Seems anti vaxxers fall into these groups. If you don't want to get vaccinated, fine. Just pay your own medical bills. LOL

Vaccinations can cause variants also. Stop spreading fake news.

 

Not antivax, just anti this vax until it's proven over time. 

 

I DO pay my own medical bills, I'm from the U.S.

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

I agree that the vaccines seem to be doing a good job of protecting people from serious symptoms and death, but the part I don’t understand is why so many people care whether anyone else gets vaccinated or not. As you say, the vaccinated can still be infected, which means the virus is replicating inside their body, and if the virus is replicating, then isn’t it just as possible that it could mutate in that vaccinated person? This assertion that unvaccinated people are solely responsible for any new variants doesn’t hold up in my mind, but maybe there’s something I’m missing here. 
 

The point is, that if you’re vaccinated, you are protected as well as possible for the time being, but the variants will continue to pop up, and most experts agree that covid isn’t going away, and that we’ll have to learn to live with it. The way it looks to me, is that the people who can’t deal with their own fears want to control other peoples behavior in order to soothe their own anxieties. If we let the most fearful in society dictate the policies, then I think we’ll be wearing masks and avoiding social contact forever, regardless of what percentage of the Earth’s population we manage to vaccinate.  

Maybe some of us are concerned that hospital ICU's are overloaded? That people who need medical treatment for other illnesses can't get it now? That health care workers are being subjected to huge stress thanks to the selfishness of those who won't get vaccinated?

[Ryan754326]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

The unvaccinated will allow variants to keep cropping up. 

 

You remember all the battles to get helmet laws enacted?  Seat belt laws?  Drunk driving laws?

 

Seems anti vaxxers fall into these groups. If you don't want to get vaccinated, fine. Just pay your own medical bills. LOL

What about the vaccinated people who are getting infected? Can’t they cause variants too? 

[placeholder]

Just now, Ryan754326 said:

What about the vaccinated people who are getting infected? Can’t they cause variants too? 

But they stay infected for a shorter length of time and produce less virus.

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, frantick said:

Vaccinations can cause variants also. Stop spreading fake news.

 

Not antivax, just anti this vax until it's proven over time. 

 

I DO pay my own medical bills, I'm from the U.S.

It's not about causing variants. It's simply a numbers game. The more people who are infected, the more virus particles are created, and the greater likelihood of a successful new mutant being created. While people who get vaccinated can be infected, their infections tend to be milder and less virus particles are produced.

[Jeffr2]

15 hours ago, frantick said:

Vaccinations can cause variants also. Stop spreading fake news.

 

Not antivax, just anti this vax until it's proven over time. 

 

I DO pay my own medical bills, I'm from the U.S.

Please. The biggest source of variants are the unvaccinated. It'd be rare for one to come from the vaccinated. Possibly, but rare.

 

Do you have insurance?  If so, others are helping pay for your bills. That's how insurance works. If no insurance, then great! You'll pay the full amount.