Pfizer vaccine: shot in the arm for Thailand’s medics comes with a dose of controversy

[bkkcanuck8]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

You're confusing antibody count with efficacy.  Many of us who were jabbed for measles, polio, etc. are still protected decades later, in spite of the fact that the antibody count has dwindled to a tiny percentage of what it was the day we got the vaccines.

 

He is also quoting the first jab half-life of sinovac vaccine with regards to anti-bodies, the vaccine requires two jabs so taking one jab results as proof of anything is problematic.  There are concerns (and data - i.e. 600 nurses getting sick on the front line from COVID) to indicate sinovac is not as good as other vaccines though...  My (mostly lay/vague recollection of school in deteriorating memory cells ????) is that antibodies naturally decrease over time after as they elevate while actively fighting an infection (don't know the timeline), but your immune system is more than just those antibodies - you are left with a memory of the virus that allows your immune system kick into high gear early on after a new infection, and will create new antibodies to fight the new infection quicker...  (I think we still have a long way to go to fully understanding the immune system, 2nd in difficulty to the how the brain works).  Take the above though with a big grain of salt since I have vague recollections, trying to supplement with online resources (was always way way more interested in physics). 

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, RobU said:

I see your point but healthcare workers are the most vulnerable. they work in areas of High Viral Load ie they are surrounded by extremely poorly people with high concentrations of the the virus in their systems and are constantly touching and getting very close to them. I agree hospitals are dangerous places because the virus is exhaled on the breath of the patients and, no matter how strict the containment protocols are, the infected air will escape from the ward into the air of the corridors and changing rooms of the hospital. BUT healthcare workers are more at risk when they are at work and to be blunt they are valuable and not easily replaced (7 years training for a doctor 4 years training for a nurse).

Agreed, I believe viral load is an important factor on whether you will become sick and to what degree to some extent.   They found during the Spanish flu that the field hospitals (actual field hospitals) were better in treating patients of the flu because of the open environment and 'ventilation' (and that was when hospital wards literally had big windows that you propped open to ventilate the ward).  Now I don't know for sure, but I suspect the most modern hospitals have a reasonably good air filtration system now, but I suspect older hospitals not so much.   Other front line (non-medical) workers would have a much more limited exposure and thus much lower risk of infection (and if they are vaccinated - it will still more than likely limit the risk of hospitalization), which can be mitigated to a great extent by mask mandates indoors and washing ones hands before touching one's own face.   In addition, if a medical worker on the front lines (already running at near full capacity) is forced off work because of exposure and being sick - more people will die from lack of care.  

[riclag]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

My nephew who is a nurse at a medical station out in the sticks in Kalasin got his Pfizer booster today. He had already had 2 sinopharm shots. 

Same my wife's cousin who is a nurse in Nakhon Phanom got her P vacc yesterday 

[mommysboy]

I see the EMA are also looking in to the mRNA vaccines' connection to a couple of other severe conditions on top of cardiac issues in youngsters. 

 

Generally, I would say AZ can now be considered the equal of any vaccine, since they all seem to be less than very safe, but do a pretty good job.

[bkkcanuck8]

46 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I see the EMA are also looking in to the mRNA vaccines' connection to a couple of other severe conditions on top of cardiac issues in youngsters. 

 

Generally, I would say AZ can now be considered the equal of any vaccine, since they all seem to be less than very safe, but do a pretty good job.

Every vaccine has a level of risk, and that is constantly updated as it is tracked -- when anything is approved it is approved for a specific use, and against that use is the risk of severe reaction to that treatment (be it drugs or vaccines).   For it to be approved it has to be shown to be effective and very low risk, and if any time during the tracking of it - that approval can be suspended for investigation and/or revoked.   The risks for these severe reactions are extremely rare.   Currently the data is showing the risk of severe reaction from the vaccine is far far less than the risk of getting severe COVID.   There is also oversight of manufacturing.  During the race to get the polio vaccine out there was an incident called the "Cutter Incident" where the live virus used in the vaccine was not properly inactivated leading to people being infected when they were getting the vaccine (vaccination the hard way).   AZ is based on this same process. 

 

That said, this century the average lifespan has almost doubled and a lot of that is because of vaccines.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, RobU said:

I see your point but healthcare workers are the most vulnerable. they work in areas of High Viral Load ie they are surrounded by extremely poorly people with high concentrations of the the virus in their systems and are constantly touching and getting very close to them. I agree hospitals are dangerous places because the virus is exhaled on the breath of the patients and, no matter how strict the containment protocols are, the infected air will escape from the ward into the air of the corridors and changing rooms of the hospital. BUT healthcare workers are more at risk when they are at work and to be blunt they are valuable and not easily replaced (7 years training for a doctor 4 years training for a nurse).

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I'm referring to the support staff who work in hospitals and other venues that take care of covid patients.

[RobU]

43 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Perhaps I should have been clearer. I'm referring to the support staff who work in hospitals and other venues that take care of covid patients.

I hear what you say but my point in that case still stands. Doctors and nurses must take absolute priority. They cannot be replaced as easily as support staff and it is practicing doctors and nurses who train the new generation of doctors and nurses. ie a lecturer/professor in medicine/surgery must be a practicing medic usually a consultant. They are obviously older often in their 40's and late 60's if they are infected and the death rate is proportional for those ages you will drastically reduce the ability to train new medics. Doctor and nurse training is not in the classroom it is very practical on the wards under the supervision of experienced qualified staff. All they learn at university is Human Biology and diagnostic algorithms which must be put into practice under supervision. They are probably one of the most precious resources a country has hence the reason why many countries have special schemes to attract doctors and nurses from other countries.

[Letseng]

11 hours ago, Srikcir said:

"vaccine has dropped fast" 

Lowest efficacy than the other brands, recent evidence suggests 50% drop every 40 days. 

The government's extensive use of SinoVac was likely a political and economic one - advance China's worldwide medical tech and save from buying more expensive Western vaccines.

The Thai government should immediately purchase additional Pfizer doses in number given as a booster to medical workers regardless of the cost for immediate  distribution to "unjabbed" vulnerable peoples to account for its misguided covid 19 vaccine foreign policy. Without cost to the recipient.

Just place an order and arrival in 2 days ???? Do you think the vaccine is on the shelve waiting for a buyer?

The booster will arrive next year. A bit too late to have for a booster. 

[Casesrisingpanic]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

You're confusing antibody count with efficacy.  Many of us who were jabbed for measles, polio, etc. are still protected decades later, in spite of the fact that the antibody count has dwindled to a tiny percentage of what it was the day we got the vaccines.

 

Very true, but that reality will not be able to penetrate through the fear mongering merchants on this site and in the media and government 

[Sandy Bottom]

16 hours ago, fvw53 said:

Where is the scientific evidence that the Pfizer mRNA vaccine is more "highly effective" than for instance AstraZeneca ?

One thing is sure : there is a big fight going on in the world of Big Pharma and not only for the market of to-day but also for the sales of many years in the future because this COVID will not go away and will require additional jabs once (or even more) a year.

Go to Forbes.com and fill in their search tool : ""How The Covid-19 Vaccine Injected Billions Into Big Pharma—And Made Its Executives Very Rich

 

per google search on Astra Zeneca:

Results demonstrated vaccine efficacy of 76% (CI: 59% to 86%) after a first dose, with protection maintained to the second dose.  
 

pfizer:

How effective is the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine?

 

 

• Based on evidence from clinical trials in people 16 years and older, the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 95% effective at preventing laboratory-confirmed infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 in people who received two doses and had no evidence of being previously infected

[HappyinNE]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:59 PM, AgentSmith said:

Just to make it very clear: registration for Pfizer jabs for foreigners over 60 or with certain underlying diseases is still wide open at several hospitals in Bangkok. No need for posts from people in these groups saying they can't get it because they can if they want to.

Try the real Thailand out side of Bangkok.

[HaoleBoy]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:59 PM, AgentSmith said:

Just to make it very clear: registration for Pfizer jabs for foreigners over 60 or with certain underlying diseases is still wide open at several hospitals in Bangkok. No need for posts from people in these groups saying they can't get it because they can if they want to.

If you drive to Bangkok!  It should be allocated to all provinces or at least the major ones that can properly store / administer the Pfizer.  Udon and Khon Kaen can handle surrounding provinces as well as Chiang Mai.  Just takes a little thought which this Gov doesn't have.

[HaoleBoy]

21 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I see the EMA are also looking in to the mRNA vaccines' connection to a couple of other severe conditions on top of cardiac issues in youngsters. 

 

Generally, I would say AZ can now be considered the equal of any vaccine, since they all seem to be less than very safe, but do a pretty good job.

You must be talking AZ from UK ...  AZ from India and AZ from Australia are not accepted into the EU at this point.  I don't know about AZ from Thailand ... do you???

 

Why is this?  Don't these other manufacturing sites need to adhere to the quality standards set by AZ in UK?

[EricTh]

On 8/11/2021 at 5:25 PM, fvw53 said:

Where is the scientific evidence that the Pfizer mRNA vaccine is more "highly effective" than for instance AstraZeneca ?

One thing is sure : there is a big fight going on in the world of Big Pharma and not only for the market of to-day but also for the sales of many years in the future because this COVID will not go away and will require additional jabs once (or even more) a year.

Go to Forbes.com and fill in their search tool : ""How The Covid-19 Vaccine Injected Billions Into Big Pharma—And Made Its Executives Very Rich

 

Pfizer is not as effective as published. Note the rise in cases in USA and Israel recently. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

[macnmotion]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:56 PM, internationalism said:

wrong statistics.

nurses almost 500k

doctors 60k

way many more pharmacists, there is pharmacy on almost every street corner.

Similar with dentists.

Those figures are possibly only in the state health system. 

That's why 700k allocated. And still not enough - medics have to draw straws for pfizer.

 

At the beginning of the year in the first vax program there were listed 1.5mld medics. Includes private hospitals.

But does not include 900k health volunteers - those, who visit covid patients at home to check their oxygen, give them medicines, food

You're numbers are missing the heroic front-line marketing teams and other backoffice personnel at major private hospitals, some of whom don't even work in the hospital building, who have received Pfizer as their 3rd injection this past week. There are Doctors and nurses around the nation waiting for boosters, and older individuals and those with underlying disease many of whom have had no vaccine. But thank the lord that the marketing team is protected.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, EricTh said:

Pfizer is not as effective as published. Note the rise in cases in USA and Israel recently. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

From your link:

However, the two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data published Thursday

 

It has always been known that the vaccines cannot prevent breakthrough cases.   The US is largely a pandemic of the unvaccinated.   

 

[EricTh]

41 minutes ago, Credo said:

From your link:

However, the two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data published Thursday

 

It has always been known that the vaccines cannot prevent breakthrough cases.   The US is largely a pandemic of the unvaccinated.   

 

 

The initial measures of efficacy for all the vaccines were for infection of Covid 19 and not for severe symptoms.

 

Pfizer was published to be 'effective at 95%' in avoiding infection. (Note the word infection and not severe symptoms like needing ventilator).

 

For Pfizer, that means you can still catch Covid even after vaccination.....

 

This video below shows how they calculate efficacy.

 

 

 

All vaccines including Sinovac prevents almost 100% deaths after two doses.

 

That's why the published efficacy rates can be very misleading for those less educated.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by EricTh

[Credo]

50 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

The initial measures of efficacy for all the vaccines were for infection of Covid 19 and not for severe symptoms.

 

Pfizer was published to be 'effective at 95%' in avoiding infection. (Note the word infection and not severe symptoms like needing ventilator).

 

For Pfizer, that means you can still catch Covid even after vaccination.....

 

This video below shows how they calculate efficacy.

 

 

 

All vaccines including Sinovac prevents almost 100% deaths after two doses.

 

That's why the published efficacy rates can be very misleading for those less educated.

 

I haven't seen any statistics that show Sinovac is that effective against Delta.  I think the statistics from Indonesian Health Care Workers would indicate it was not.

 

[placeholder]

50 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

The initial measures of efficacy for all the vaccines were for infection of Covid 19 and not for severe symptoms.

 

Pfizer was published to be 'effective at 95%' in avoiding infection. (Note the word infection and not severe symptoms like needing ventilator).

 

For Pfizer, that means you can still catch Covid even after vaccination.....

 

This video below shows how they calculate efficacy.

 

 

 

All vaccines including Sinovac prevents almost 100% deaths after two doses.

 

That's why the published efficacy rates can be very misleading for those less educated.

 

No real world studies have been concluded for the Sinovac vaccine or the Sinopharm vaccine vs. the Delta variant. It's still very much up in the air how effective they are at reducing serious symptoms and the number of deaths from the Delta variant.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

I haven't seen any statistics that show Sinovac is that effective against Delta.  I think the statistics from Indonesian Health Care Workers would indicate it was not.

 

Do we actually have any statistical studies from the Indonesian govt vs. the delta variant? I know that large scale studies elsewhere are in progress but no results have been published yet.

[Credo]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do we actually have any statistical studies from the Indonesian govt vs. the delta variant? I know that large scale studies elsewhere are in progress but no results have been published yet.

I don't think there are any actual studies, at least not yet.  What we have is mostly observational data.  In Indonesia, it would indicate that there are serious breakthrough infections and deaths in fully vaccinated people. 

 

In Indonesia and in Israel what is lacking is more concrete understanding of who is getting sick, how sick are they getting and who is dying.   The difference is that in Indonesia I suspect those in the medical field are in a younger category, i.e. working age people.  In Israel, we don't have any data to show if they are elderly, have underlying conditions, are immunocomprised, etc.    What we do know is that Delta is much more infectious and vaccines are not as effective right now as we had once assumed.

 

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/hundreds-indonesian-doctors-contract-covid-19-despite-vaccination-dozens-2021-06-17/

[AgentSmith]

On 8/12/2021 at 8:43 PM, HappyinNE said:

Try the real Thailand out side of Bangkok.

I don't live in Bangkok.

[rabas]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

Even though no major studies have yet come out about the clinical effectiveness of Sinovac's vaccine against the Delta variant, you expect us to take the word of an alleged professional? A professional who uses the word "Sinocrap"? It is to laugh.

If you have quality data showing its effectiveness, kindly share it.

 

The Chinese Globaltimes (!) says China is now hard at hard work to adapt vaccines to the Delta variant, now, that it has entered China.  https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1230741.shtml

 

Answer this...  Delta has been ravaging the world for a while now. Why would you buy a vaccine from someone not concerned about its effectiveness against Delta until it hits home? As you say, they didn't even have any good data.

 

[metisdead]

Some "Sinocrap" troll posts and the replies have been removed.

 

A post with a video from an unapproved social media source has been removed. 

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

The Chinese Globaltimes (!) says China is now hard at hard work to adapt vaccines to the Delta variant, now, that it has entered China. 

So is this an admission that what they have now, and is being purchased in the millions by Thailand, does not work?

[rabas]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

So is this an admission that what they have now, and is being purchased in the millions by Thailand, does not work?

From France24 News:

 

"China's drug regulator has approved the country's first mixed-vaccine trial, a company involved in the study said, as the rapid spread of the Delta variant raises concern about the efficacy of domestically produced jabs."

 

"The trial will test the efficacy of combining an "inactivated" vaccine made by China's Sinovac with a DNA-based one developed by US pharmaceutical company Inovio, a statement issued on Tuesday said."

 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210811-china-approves-first-mixed-vaccine-trial-as-delta-spreads

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by rabas

[djayz]

On 8/11/2021 at 10:52 AM, webfact said:

medics treating COVID-19 patients in Pattani Hospital had to draw lots to determine who would get a booster shot.

Shameful in this day and age! 

[seajae]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:59 PM, AgentSmith said:

Just to make it very clear: registration for Pfizer jabs for foreigners over 60 or with certain underlying diseases is still wide open at several hospitals in Bangkok. No need for posts from people in these groups saying they can't get it because they can if they want to.

not in the provinces, I cant travel to Bangkok due to medical problems and they are not doing western vaccines for farangs in Surat Thani, I am  over 60 with 2 underlying diseases and have heard nothing since registering, just goes to show how full of sh*t the govt is saying they are prioritizing my age group

[HaoleBoy]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

So is this an admission that what they have now, and is being purchased in the millions by Thailand, does not work?

China bought 100 million doses of BioNTech by China's Fosum Pharma back in Dec '20 and has had this on-hand but not used yet.  This vaccine is still not approved in China.

    https://fortune.com/2021/07/16/china-mrna-vaccine-pfizer-biontech-fosun-doses/

They did sell 5million + 5million doses to Taiwan recently when the Delta variant surged there.  And some buddhist org donated another 5million doses to Taiwan.

 

Why China hasn't approved this mRNA vaccine is not clear.  Maybe Xi Ping can't afford to "lose face" this close to his re-election in Feb '22.
The article above states:

China’s delayed approval of the BioNTech jab is likely due, in part, to the government publicly casting doubt on the usefulness of mRNA vaccines earlier this year and the promotion of its homegrown alternatives.

 

Shanghai's Fosum Pharma corp has recently setup a facility (and signed a deal with BioNTech) to produce BioNTech's Pfizer and believes they can get this started by end of Aug.  They expect to produce 1 billion doses by year-end.

     https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/China-to-use-BioNTech-vaccine-as-booster-shot-sources-say

 

And, Thailand keeps buying the Sinovac and Sinopharm .... 

[placeholder]

18 hours ago, rabas said:

If you have quality data showing its effectiveness, kindly share it.

 

The Chinese Globaltimes (!) says China is now hard at hard work to adapt vaccines to the Delta variant, now, that it has entered China.  https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1230741.shtml

 

Answer this...  Delta has been ravaging the world for a while now. Why would you buy a vaccine from someone not concerned about its effectiveness against Delta until it hits home? As you say, they didn't even have any good data.

 

Well, one big problem for China is that there are so few cases present in China that domestic studies until recently weren't really possible. They did take advantage of the Guangzhou outbreak to do a small study for what it's worth.

 

China's inactivated vaccines effective against Delta variant: study

Inactivated Covid-19 vaccines developed by China curbed the spread of the Delta variant during a May outbreak in Guangzhou, a study has shown.
Led by reputed Chinese epidemiologist Zhong Nanshan, researchers from the Guangzhou Center for Disease Control and Prevention found that two shots of the vaccines provided an efficacy of 59 percent against Covid-19 caused by the Delta variant, 70.2 percent against moderate form of the disease, and 100 percent against severe cases.
Meanwhile, with an efficacy of 13.8 percent, single-dose vaccination did not provide sufficient protection.

http://www.ecns.cn/news/society/2021-08-23/detail-ihaqkfpn8668263.shtml

 

But they may not have another opportunity for a while:

China reports zero local virus cases as Delta outbreak retreats

http://www.ecns.cn/news/society/2021-08-23/detail-ihaqkfpn8668263.shtml