U.S. Housing Prices Explosion Making Repatriation a Less Realistic Option for Many?

[Yellowtail]

Surely the price of "higher education" has outpaced the cost of rent, why no mention that?

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Surely the price of "higher education" has outpaced the cost of rent, why no mention that?

That's debatable but it's obvious you're  just sniping.

 

To wit,

 

Higher education is not the topic.

 

Expats are not usually repatriating to attend uni.

 

Higher education is not a basic human survival need as food, clothing, and SHELTER are.

[Yellowtail]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That's debatable but it's obvious you're  just sniping.

What does that mean? 

 

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

To wit,

 

Higher education is not the topic.

The topic is the "exploding" cost of rent yes? I am only pointing out that the cost of rent is not rising nearly as fast or as much as at least one of the luxuries the tenant continues to enjoy as a comparison. The tenant in the article  (apparently) pays about $50K a year in tuition, and earns something less that $48K a year in salary. If housing is a human need, and education is not, why would she not quit school and focus on providing for her needs? 

 

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Higher education is not a basic human survival need as food, clothing, and SHELTER are.

So what is your point, that the things you see as basic human needs should be exempt from market pressure? How do you propose this?

 

It is unfortunate that places where people really want to live cost more than places people generally don't want to live, but it's just the way it is.

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What does that mean? 

 

The topic is the "exploding" cost of rent yes? I am only pointing out that the cost of rent is not rising nearly as fast or as much as at least one of the luxuries the tenant continues to enjoy as a comparison. The tenant in the article  (apparently) pays about $50K a year in tuition, and earns something less that $48K a year in salary. If housing is a human need, and education is not, why would she not quit school and focus on providing for her needs? 

 

So what is your point, that the things you see as basic human needs should be exempt from market pressure? How do you propose this?

 

It is unfortunate that places where people really want to live cost more than places people generally don't want to live, but it's just the way it is.

I am not taking your bait to get into an ideological debate about whether so called free market capitalism should extend to survival needs.

 

The truth here is that other than for quite wealthy and or already US real estate owners moving back to the US is highly problematic largely due to housing costs. The compromises they would have to make if they could secure a roof at all are extreme. 

 

But many expats are pushed / forced out of Thailand for various reasons.

 

In such cases such people if not wealthy / already owners will need to choose to live a degraded life in the US or seek a third country option where they might have a greater chance to live in dignity.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jingthing

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I am not taking your bait to get into an ideological debate about whether so called free market capitalism should extend to survival needs.

 

The truth here is that other than for quite wealthy and or already US real estate owners moving back to the US is highly problematic largely due to housing costs. The compromises they would have to make if they could secure a roof at all are extreme. 

 

But many expats are pushed / forced out of Thailand for various reasons.

 

In such cases such people if not wealthy / already owners will need to choose to live a degraded life in the US or seek a third country option where they might have a greater chance to live in dignity.

I agree, people that cannot afford to live in places they consider desirable, will likely have to live someplace they find somewhat less desirable.

 

You've started a topic about rising real estate costs, yet you don't want to discuss anything a about it. 

 

I agree, people with little or no money living month to month on SS or SSI wanting to repatriate will will likely have a difficult time getting a nice place in a desirable location. But I can't think of a time when this would have been easy. 

 

Why did people come here anyway? If what we read here is true,  many/most (apparently) came because they could enjoy a higher standard of living in their retirement than they could at home. These people likely could not afford a nice place in a desirable location when they left. 

 

The only reasons I can think of for any law abiding retiree  being pushed/forced out of Thailand are financial, and yes, people that can't afford to live here will absolutely  have a hard time repatriating. 

 

[EVENKEEL]

29 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I am not taking your bait to get into an ideological debate about whether so called free market capitalism should extend to survival needs.

 

The truth here is that other than for quite wealthy and or already US real estate owners moving back to the US is highly problematic largely due to housing costs. The compromises they would have to make if they could secure a roof at all are extreme. 

 

But many expats are pushed / forced out of Thailand for various reasons.

 

In such cases such people if not wealthy / already owners will need to choose to live a degraded life in the US or seek a third country option where they might have a greater chance to live in dignity.

Folks have had 50 yrs of working to have some sort of plan, something. When are the retirees going to take a little responsibility for the choices they made throughout their lives. But, it's easier to blame others for our mistakes. Yes, rent is high. A returning expat may need to choose a location that they perhaps don't like, too bad.

 

You know all those new cars you bought, buy lunches every day at work, spend spend spend. i didn't. If you've worked your whole life as a US citizen and at the end of your days all you have is SS, you were spending too much without a thought for tomorrow.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Folks have had 50 yrs of working to have some sort of plan, something. When are the retirees going to take a little responsibility for the choices they made throughout their lives. But, it's easier to blame others for our mistakes. Yes, rent is high. A returning expat may need to choose a location that they perhaps don't like, too bad.

 

You know all those new cars you bought, buy lunches every day at work, spend spend spend. i didn't. If you've worked your whole life as a US citizen and at the end of your days all you have is SS, you were spending too much without a thought for tomorrow.

Preaching much?

Not interested in your baiting attempts to personalize this.

This is a general topic about something rather extreme that is happening in the US.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

I agree, people that cannot afford to live in places they consider desirable, will likely have to live someplace they find somewhat less desirable.

 

You've started a topic about rising real estate costs, yet you don't want to discuss anything a about it. 

 

I agree, people with little or no money living month to month on SS or SSI wanting to repatriate will will likely have a difficult time getting a nice place in a desirable location. But I can't think of a time when this would have been easy. 

 

Why did people come here anyway? If what we read here is true,  many/most (apparently) came because they could enjoy a higher standard of living in their retirement than they could at home. These people likely could not afford a nice place in a desirable location when they left. 

 

The only reasons I can think of for any law abiding retiree  being pushed/forced out of Thailand are financial, and yes, people that can't afford to live here will absolutely  have a hard time repatriating. 

 

I'm pleased to read that we agree on at least some important aspects of the current housing cost situation in the US.

[EVENKEEL]

57 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Preaching much?

Not interested in your baiting attempts to personalize this.

This is a general topic about something rather extreme that is happening in the US.

 

 

There's zero attempt to be personal, it's a generalization. How do I know anything about your situation? You're the one who started this topic. I agree rents have increased to an absurd amount in some areas like Bay Area for one. More absurd than before but have always been high. Which has had a serious effect on prices in the Central Valley. 

 

Your topic is about expats going back home to stay is it not? If you can't afford to buy or rent a place, then maybe a person will have to rent a room in a house which is popular. Buy a cheap RV and stay in an RV park which can be done for $300-400/mo. Stay with family or friends, get a part time job, all kinds of things a person can do to return.

[Jingthing]

Although not all returning expats or potential returning expats are retired many of course are.

 

For this group the biggest economic advantage if over 65 is usually Medicare.

 

So if they are at an economic place where the housing situation is going to mean great hardship that still can be balanced with that health care advantage.

 

That said I think lower income and or wealth returning retired expats that have been away for  many years even decades often face different challenges than those that never left.

 

Namely,

 

The US has changed a lot. Reverse culture shock on top of the economic shock.

 

More likely to have a very limited or even no support network in the US.

 

Less likely to own real estate than even lower income / wealth non expats.

 

More likely to have no US state drivers license or even any license.

 

So for a retired expat that is leaving Thailand, third countries may sometimes mean a better life, even without Medicare.

 

Finding bang for the buck as far as housing and living expenses again.

 

In the US decent places to live where you don't need a car are very rare. In typical third country retiring expat options they are very common.

 

For those that lack a network in the US then they aren't losing much in that regard moving to a third country. Also its common to be able to hire lower cost fixers to assist with initial setup such as banking, utilities, etc.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jingthing

[GinBoy2]

30 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Although not all returning expats or potential returning expats are retired many of course are.

 

For this group the biggest economic advantage if over 65 is usually Medicare.

 

So if they are at an economic place where the housing situation is going to mean great hardship that still can be balanced with that health care advantage.

 

That said I think lower income and or wealth returning retired expats that have been away for  many years even decades often face different challenges than those that never left.

 

Namely,

 

The US has changed a lot. Reverse culture shock on top of the economic shock.

 

More likely to have a very limited or even no support network in the US.

 

Less likely to own real estate than even lower income / wealth non expats.

 

More likely to have no US state drivers license or even any license.

 

So for a retired expat that is leaving Thailand, third countries may sometimes mean a better life, even without Medicare.

 

Finding bang for the buck as far as housing and living expenses again.

 

In the US decent places to live where you don't need a car are very rare. In typical third country retiring expat options they are very common.

 

For those that lack a network in the US then they aren't losing much in that regard moving to a third country. Also its common to be able to hire lower cost fixers to assist with initial setup such as banking, utilities, etc.

Well this like a can of worms, and I agree everyone's personal situation is different.

 

I spent decades outside the US, but I disagree about the culture changing so much. We live a middle class suburban life which is totally recognizable to one from the 70's when I became an adult.

 

Support structures. I'll bet a good percentage of expats have kids in the US from previous marriages. All my kids, two American daughters and my Thai son live here. I think for most of us parents are probably long gone, but your kids are here.

 

As for income, social security can be an issue. Unlike some European countries, it pays out according to what you paid in. So if you didn't pay in so much, you'll get less out. The same is true if you decide to take it early at 62.

 

Then again for income there is always the option to supplement your SS by taking a part time job, an option which in Thailand for example is not possible. Take a trip to any Walmart, Sam's Club, Costco, all the greeters are senior's.

 

So you're right  repatriation to the US may not be for everyone, but as I've said before a lot of that depends on the choices folks have made in the past several decades

[Jingthing]

Obviously every single person has their own specific personal situation!

 

What will be easy for one person might be nearly impossible for another.

 

I refuse to entertain preaching comments. I find them mean spirited, presumptuous, and odious.

 

The issues here will be in the here and now. Nobody can redo the past.

 

To conclude while this again obviously doesn't apply to all (see above) I see an analogy between elderly people being released from prison after long terms and returning long term expats who lack a US network. The ex cons may have it better! There are official half way houses to help ex cons transition. There are no such things for returning expats.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Another point.

For those that do have a solid US network especially family they can live with, obviously that network would make things much easier. Indeed that might be a strong incentive to go home.

[Yellowtail]

For old people that have not been back for many years and that have absolutely no one at all to look for for any kind of assistance, it would be hard enough. But trying to do it with no savings and after living hand-to-mouth for years it would be positively daunting. That said, I think people that have been able to do that here are at least somewhat resourceful. 

 

For people that need it, there are resources that will help get people set up. 

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

....

 

For people that need it, there are resources that will help get people set up. 

I find that hard to believe. I find it darkly amusing that Americans generally of the red state persuasion grossly overstate the coverage of social services for the down and out. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Jingthing

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I find that hard to believe. I find it darkly amusing that Americans generally of the red state persuasion grossly overstate the coverage of social services for the down and out. 

I lived on the street for five years, traveled with a carnival for ten years and ended up strung out on heroin and in a wheel chair living on SSI by the time I was 30. I think I have a pretty good idea what services are available. 

 

Have you even looked at what's available? Worst case there's always Aunt Sally's...

[Toolong]

I'm Brit, and preposterous level of unaffordability probs for homebuyers is to a great extent why I shall remain here as long as poss. Return to home country means homelessness. At 61, not nice. This is not the world my father & grandfather grew up in. An affordable home for the average working man was an expected dividend of his labours. Of course, people will say, 'Of course it's not the same now,  how silly to say so'...but not enough people GET that it really, really should not be like this. 

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, Toolong said:

I'm Brit, and preposterous level of unaffordability probs for homebuyers is to a great extent why I shall remain here as long as poss. Return to home country means homelessness. At 61, not nice. This is not the world my father & grandfather grew up in. An affordable home for the average working man was an expected dividend of his labours. Of course, people will say, 'Of course it's not the same now,  how silly to say so'...but not enough people GET that it really, really should not be like this. 

Yes, thanks for that.

It's not only a US problem.

As I've said here before a society that doesn't have widespread access to at least basic safe housing to everyone working full time and pensioners has failed as a society in a fundamental way. There is enough blame to go around for this from different sides of the political spectrum but the fact remains this is a truly rotten situation.

[Jingthing]

43 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I lived on the street for five years, traveled with a carnival for ten years and ended up strung out on heroin and in a wheel chair living on SSI by the time I was 30. I think I have a pretty good idea what services are available. 

 

Have you even looked at what's available? Worst case there's always Aunt Sally's...

Personalizing this again. 

[GinBoy2]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, thanks for that.

It's not only a US problem.

As I've said here before a society that doesn't have widespread access to at least basic safe housing to everyone working full time and pensioners has failed as a society in a fundamental way. There is enough blame to go around for this from different sides of the political spectrum but the fact remains this is a truly rotten situation.

You are missing a fundamental point

 

Society assumes that you have lived in that society for most of your life and built up enough assets to pay for housing in retirement

 

Nobody gets a free lunch in life, and the way you make it sound is that some destitute returning expat should in some way be entitled to a rock bottom rental.

That's just not how life works I'm afraid to say

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

You are missing a fundamental point

 

Society assumes that you have lived in that society for most of your life and built up enough assets to pay for housing in retirement

 

Nobody gets a free lunch in life, and the way you make it sound is that some destitute returning expat should in some way be entitled to a rock bottom rental.

That's just not how life works I'm afraid to say

But it's not fair that people that worked their whole lives and saved for there retirement should live better  than those that did not. It's only fair that the people that saved their money should be compelled to subsidize the people that did not. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Personalizing this again. 

I'll take that as a no, that you have not investigated what resources are available before insisting there are none. As I said, worst case there is the Salvation Army. There are also homeless shelters all over the county many of which really will help people get back on their feet that want to.

 

[GinBoy2]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

But it's not fair that people that worked their whole lives and saved for there retirement should live better  than those that did not. It's only fair that the people that saved their money should be compelled to subsidize the people that did not. 

 

 

Good point.

 

Back to my 'free lunch' thing.

 

Yeah, I did everything I could to save through my working life, so at the end I could be secure in retirement.

 

I've seen multiple housing booms and busts through my life. Sky high mortgage rates back in the 70's.

 

But we all dealt with them and got through it.

 

Trouble is time has kinda run out to correct for all of this. 

 

It very much akin to why you change your saving portfolio away from stocks to bonds as you get older, simply because you don't have the time left to recover if stocks take a dump.

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Good point.

 

Back to my 'free lunch' thing.

 

Yeah, I did everything I could to save through my working life, so at the end I could be secure in retirement.

 

I've seen multiple housing booms and busts through my life. Sky high mortgage rates back in the 70's.

 

But we all dealt with them and got through it.

 

Trouble is time has kinda run out to correct for all of this. 

 

It very much akin to why you change your saving portfolio away from stocks to bonds as you get older, simply because you don't have the time left to recover if stocks take a dump.

Bought my first house at age 23, was paying somewhere in the 15% interest rate.

 

Makes no difference whether you're a returning expat or never left. I've got family who though making decent money remained renters forever and never saved. Now, retired all they have is SS. 

[Yellowtail]

44 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Bought my first house at age 23, was paying somewhere in the 15% interest rate.

 

Makes no difference whether you're a returning expat or never left. I've got family who though making decent money remained renters forever and never saved. Now, retired all they have is SS. 

I left home at 17 and did not have a physical address or a telephone until I was 31. I have never owned any real estate here or in the US.

[GinBoy2]

42 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Bought my first house at age 23, was paying somewhere in the 15% interest rate.

 

Makes no difference whether you're a returning expat or never left. I've got family who though making decent money remained renters forever and never saved. Now, retired all they have is SS. 

Yep you're right, as as much as some don't want to hear it, back in the day we dealt with those sky high interest rates on mortgages, just like folks deal with sky high rents.

 

But you deal with it, you save what you can, and over the decades you end up secure.

 

I come from a very poor immigrant farm worker family in the CA Central Valley. I know what poverty looks like.

 

Happiest day of my life was when I bought my parents their house, giving them security in their final days.

 

That didn't happen by chance, but because my parents taught me to study, get a good job...and Save!

[Yellowtail]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Good point.

 

Back to my 'free lunch' thing.

 

Yeah, I did everything I could to save through my working life, so at the end I could be secure in retirement.

 

I've seen multiple housing booms and busts through my life. Sky high mortgage rates back in the 70's.

 

But we all dealt with them and got through it.

 

Trouble is time has kinda run out to correct for all of this. 

 

It very much akin to why you change your saving portfolio away from stocks to bonds as you get older, simply because you don't have the time left to recover if stocks take a dump.

 

In the United States there are people that fall through the cracks and through no fault of their own fall on hard times, but generally speaking, people in the US that have nothing when they retire, and while unfortunate, it is something they brought on themselves. So the suckers that did not stop for Starbucks twice a day for coffee (or some such) are expected to pay for those who did. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

9 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

You are missing a fundamental point

 

Society assumes that you have lived in that society for most of your life and built up enough assets to pay for housing in retirement

 

Nobody gets a free lunch in life, and the way you make it sound is that some destitute returning expat should in some way be entitled to a rock bottom rental.

That's just not how life works I'm afraid to say

Well over 99 percent of Americans that are suffering from the severe lack of affordable housing are not expats.

If you actually have bothered to follow my thoughts on this I am advocating that lower wealth / income expats leaving Thailand should strongly consider the US as it is now to be a last resort. Go where you're treated best to another retired expat destination where your lower US homeless level income is more like upper middle class. Why choose suffering, degradation, risk of homelessness if you don't have to?

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by onthedarkside
flame comment removed

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Bought my first house at age 23, was paying somewhere in the 15% interest rate.

 

Makes no difference whether you're a returning expat or never left. I've got family who though making decent money remained renters forever and never saved. Now, retired all they have is SS. 

The majority of Americans on social security have only that as income. The system wasn't designed for that but that's what happened.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

But it's not fair that people that worked their whole lives and saved for there retirement should live better  than those that did not. It's only fair that the people that saved their money should be compelled to subsidize the people that did not. 

 

 

Huh?

Of course its fair that they can live better.

You're inventing an issue that doesn't exist.

Two issues that do exist however are insane levels of housing inflation and a massive shortage of affordable housing. Not mansions. Basic safe roofs over heads.