I need a consultation from a lawyer who has experience with US/UK/AU copyright laws in the IT field

[fdsa]

Preferrably personal meeting but could be either email or phone.

 

I want to commit a copyright infringement on behalf of my customers and need a consultation on the legal aspects of this, e.g. how to draw a contract in such way that the customer will be held responsible, not the counterparty (my company).

 

If you are not an IT lawyer yourself but could recommend someone good - please share their contact information.

 

 

(it might be a wrong subforum but it does not suit the "Jobs, economy, banking, investments" subforum too because neither my company nor my customers are located in Thailand)

Edited August 28, 2021 by fdsa

[FritsSikkink]

"I want to commit a copyright infringement on behalf of my customers and need a consultation on the legal aspects of this, e.g. how to draw a contract in such way that the customer will be held responsible, not the counterparty (my company)."

This doesn't make any sense.

You want to commit piracy on behalf of your customers and hold your customers responsible.

 

I do know a good lawyer but what can you afford to pay. He isn't cheap.

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by FritsSikkink

[blackcab]

In essence what you are asking for is a contract between an agent and a Principal where the agent is granted an indemnity against any future losses or claims that may result from a particular activity.

 

Be warned that such an indemnity may not hold the agent harmless if the agent knowingly and recklessly exposes the Principal to legal action.

 

This is because a contract cannot supercede statute law, even if the contract is entered into willingly by both parties.

[fdsa]

 

54 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You want to commit piracy on behalf of your customers and hold your customers responsible.

Exactly. There are companies doing the very same job and I've yet to hear of any of them getting sued, so there should be some legal trick to make the customer responsible if any claims arise.

 

59 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I do know a good lawyer but what can you afford to pay. He isn't cheap.

Could you tell the approximate price level please? I'm ok with a hundred or so USD per hour, but not ok with thousands as it will be cheaper to simply incorporate in Russia and ignore any claims.

 

 

33 minutes ago, blackcab said:

In essence what you are asking for is a contract between an agent and a Principal where the agent is granted an indemnity against any future losses or claims that may result from a particular activity.

 

Be warned that such an indemnity may not hold the agent harmless if the agent knowingly and recklessly exposes the Principal to legal action.

 

This is because a contract cannot supercede statute law, even if the contract is entered into willingly by both parties.

I believe I could claim something like "the customer told me that they are the owners/creators and have all the legal rights on that content", and draw a contract which states that the customer must own (have all the rights on) the content to grant the same rights to the contractor, and the customer will be held responsible if any third party will claim in the future that they are the actual owners of the content.

 

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, fdsa said:

 

Exactly. There are companies doing the very same job and I've yet to hear of any of them getting sued, so there should be some legal trick to make the customer responsible if any claims arise.

 

Could you tell the approximate price level please? I'm ok with a hundred or so USD per hour, but not ok with thousands as it will be cheaper to simply incorporate in Russia and ignore any claims.

 

 

I believe I could claim something like "the customer told me that they are the owners/creators and have all the legal rights on that content", and draw a contract which states that the customer must own (have all the rights on) the content to grant the same rights to the contractor, and the customer will be held responsible if any third party will claim in the future that they are the actual owners of the content.

 

Can you give an example of such company indulging in copyright infringement.

 

Under US law having no direct knowledge or intent of the infringement is not a defense. It would be expected that a company would carry out due diligence .

Edited August 28, 2021 by cleopatra2

[fdsa]

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can you give an example of such company indulging in copyright infringement.

Google, Kaspersky, SANS, McAfee.

[cleopatra2]

13 hours ago, fdsa said:

Google, Kaspersky, SANS, McAfee.

Google have on a number of occasions had to defend themselves in court over copyright infringements. 

[GrandPapillon]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:12 AM, blackcab said:

In essence what you are asking for is a contract between an agent and a Principal where the agent is granted an indemnity against any future losses or claims that may result from a particular activity.

 

Be warned that such an indemnity may not hold the agent harmless if the agent knowingly and recklessly exposes the Principal to legal action.

 

This is because a contract cannot supercede statute law, even if the contract is entered into willingly by both parties.

indeed, you can't draft a contract to protect something illegal from one party and think you can get away with it

 

like drafting a murder contract, and giving all liabilities to the other party as a condition of the contract ????

[GrandPapillon]

On 8/28/2021 at 3:53 AM, fdsa said:

Could you tell the approximate price level please? I'm ok with a hundred or so USD per hour, but not ok with thousands as it will be cheaper to simply incorporate in Russia and ignore any claims.

 

Go with the Russia plan then, will probably be cheaper

 

IP lawyers are expensive, drafting specific contracts depending on complexity and what you want to cover will cost you a min of 1,000 USD up to 3,000 USD

 

they might have already drafted such contracts type before, so they could do a copy/paste and make adjustments

[GrandPapillon]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:19 AM, cleopatra2 said:

Can you give an example of such company indulging in copyright infringement.

 

Under US law having no direct knowledge or intent of the infringement is not a defense. It would be expected that a company would carry out due diligence .

amen to that, courts are filled with cases of "I didn't know they were pirating software" defense line. Nobody is buying that line anymore. Content providers can be held liable of the contents they host.

 

remember Megaupload? how did that end with that line of defense? ????

[fdsa]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

indeed, you can't draft a contract to protect something illegal from one party and think you can get away with it

I don't believe that all other companies just sign some simple NDA with their customer and do not care about the possible consequences.

"we are safe as long as both parties keep their mouths shut" approach just doesn't make it for me.

 

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

IP lawyers are expensive, drafting specific contracts depending on complexity and what you want to cover will cost you a min of 1,000 USD up to 3,000 USD

I meant thousands per hour - it would be way too expensive for a simple consultation and drafting a contract, while 1-3 thousands total sounds very reasonable.

 

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

they might have already drafted such contracts type before, so they could do a copy/paste and make adjustments

yes, they must have these drafts as my "copyright infringement" is quite a demanded job.

Edited August 29, 2021 by fdsa

[cleopatra2]

27 minutes ago, fdsa said:

I don't believe that all other companies just sign some simple NDA with their customer and do not care about the possible consequences.

"we are safe as long as both parties keep their mouths shut" approach just doesn't make it for me.

 

I meant thousands per hour - it would be way too expensive for a simple consultation and drafting a contract, while 1-3 thousands total sounds very reasonable.

 

yes, they must have these drafts as my "copyright infringement" is quite a demanded job.

In the case of copyright , no contract however sophisticated will provide a defense. It will be  the infringers liability to prove an exemption exist.  Even companies such as google have to justify broadcasting copyright material uploaded by third parties..

 

You have not indicated the type of infringement you wish to carry out , however the 3 common justifications are , fair use, public interest and safe harbor.

[tomazbodner]

On 8/28/2021 at 7:27 PM, fdsa said:

Google, Kaspersky, SANS, McAfee.

Can't say it worked well for Google. They were just fined 600 million dollars for copyright infringement in France. They were also sued in Australia, where they rather closed the shop than pay.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/tech/france-google-fine-publishers/index.html

 

Russia might be a better option. If you're of course prepared to pay protection money, or else may find yourself enjoying warm weather in Siberia.

[fdsa]

13 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

You have not indicated the type of infringement you wish to carry out , however the 3 common justifications are , fair use, public interest and safe harbor.

reverse engineering of software — this ranges from "very thin ice" in some jurisdictions to clear felony in others, still there is "fortune 500 companies such as Google, Kaspersky, SANS, McAfee use our software" bragging on Ida Pro website and hundreds of companies looking to hire a reverse engineer on Linkedin.

[cleopatra2]

7 hours ago, fdsa said:

reverse engineering of software — this ranges from "very thin ice" in some jurisdictions to clear felony in others, still there is "fortune 500 companies such as Google, Kaspersky, SANS, McAfee use our software" bragging on Ida Pro website and hundreds of companies looking to hire a reverse engineer on Linkedin.

The biggest and latest litigation in this area is Google v oracle on the use of Java. Note the dissenting judgements. 

 

I would also be weary of infringing the user license. 

Trade secret law

Contract law

 

It should be noted that Google did not reverse engineer the code. They simply re used the code.