Carbs or protein for breakfast?

[EVENKEEL]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:15 PM, robblok said:

I will watch it but to be honest I don't worry too much about protein anymore. The cassein is an exception as my programs are getting so demanding that i need recovery. Especially now that i added the rowing. Plus later on i want to add incline walking on a treadmill or even HIIT on a airbike.

 

But that is all future dreams as i want to keep some tricks up my sleeve for when i hit a fat loss plateau. 

Rowing is great exercise. Is the Concept 2 still a good machine? I see there's a SPORTathlon in Bangkok that has them for 58,000 tbh. Is that a legit price?

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

Rowing is great exercise. Is the Concept 2 still a good machine? I see there's a SPORTathlon in Bangkok that has them for 58,000 tbh. Is that a legit price?

If they have it in stock? Last time I checked I had to impot if from Malaysia 65 000,- Let me know if  you find out, I will order one to

[EVENKEEL]

2 minutes ago, Hummin said:

If they have it in stock? Last time I checked I had to impot if from Malaysia 65 000,- Let me know if  you find out, I will order one to

https://www.sport.co.th/

 

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Rowing is great exercise. Is the Concept 2 still a good machine? I see there's a SPORTathlon in Bangkok that has them for 58,000 tbh. Is that a legit price?

Rowing is great and i got my concept 2 years ago. I paid 55k imported it from USA. 

 

So it might be a legit price.

 

Rowing is great but it is a bit hard to get into. But the machine is the best bang for your $ as it needs virtually no maintenance has no parts that can break and can be stored in a small space and put back quite quick.

 

I must warn you i find it hard to go slow on it, I can't leisurely row. (but maybe that is just me) 

 

I also thought it was harder then running, however when i went on a treadmill after having rowed for a month i noticed that the stamina does not transfer (meaning the running was hard for me). Later after more research i found out that is always the case so they advise you to do running / cycling and rowing (if its for fat burn) as the body adapts to movements and gets better (burning less calories).

 

But if i could choose any machine it would be the rower as its low maintenance and easy storage is best. There are even programs that make it a computer game (if you pay for row pro and put that on a lap top you can have virtual rows against other people or yourself at previous speeds. You can put in boats and stuff) 

I am not doing that anymore but when i did i did 50 min rows. 

[WaveHunter]

50 minutes ago, robblok said:

I hear you saying fat adapted a lot, yet the science in the vids i shown has shown no extra weight loss or fat loss from KETO. There have been some studies that show it but if you take all the studies then all of a sudden there are no benefits. So where is that fat adaptation and metabolic advantage?

 

I am not disputing that for a obese person cutting carbs will definitely help, and nobody who wants to lose weight and has half a brain would even consider processed foods as healthy in any diet. I mean i think we are all on one line about that.

 

I think the touted fat adaptation is a myth or at least for non obese people. Anyone who put some time in the gym skips processed foods and keeps his or her carbs within reasonable limits will burn fat. The science says as much.

 

The studies don't show a higher metabolic rate in keto / fat adapted people so what does it matter ? Again some studies do but meta-analyses of many studies combined don't show this. 

 

IMHO if you like me (and i know you do) workout in a gym and do some cardio too and skip the processed foods your body will definitely burn fat. Thankfully it does not only burn fat because then your weight lifting would suck (can't use fat for high explosive movements). The body will just switch to burn based on the activity you perform and in the end the calories matter.

 

I have a lot more faith in the trainers like the guy from Athlean X and Jeff Nippon and others who train athletes to look good then say a garry Taubes or (forgot the name of that liver DR) who both look like they are skinny fats. 

 

The thing is those Keto guros make money from their gimmick, while the professional trainers and dietists make money from their results. 

 

The carbs I eat (and I might even eat too little carbs now) are directly stored in my muscles as ATP ready to fuel a weight lifting session or when I have to sprint to avoid traffic when crossing the road ????. While my body will go to fat burning when i do cardio or other non intense things. Basically there are too many good things in carbs to ignore. No we don't need them but we do need the good stuff in fruits for instance (fruits are carbs)

 

Not all carbs are created equal and when you cut out the bad ones (processed food and sugar) your body will respond in better insulin sensitivity and better nutrient partitioning (as in putting the proteins into the muscles you damage during training).

 

Keto is just a bit too restrictive and yes it certainly works for obese people and couch potatoes. But after they lost weight they can go back to healthy carbs and live a normal life. 

 

I dont count calories (ok i have set meals as im OCD and like to be sure that what i eat does not vary so i can adjust)

 

The secret is not low carbs its high protein as protein helps you keep your muscles and as you yourself stated we need more protein when we are getting older. 

 

And for people thinking im a bodybuilder (maybe I am but a small one at that). I love lifting weights but that is just because it fits my body. I suck at many sports but not lifting. I do my cardio now (after neglecting it). 

 

I do believe that there are supplements that can help a bit to burn extra fat (once your diet and training are good) but the weight loss comes from a caloric deficit.  I also believe in reverse dieting (though i havent tried it yet)

 

To sum it up, remove sugar and processed foods and do some exercise and stay in a caloric deficit make sure you do some resistance training and cardio and with patience (something I do lack) you will see results.

My interest in keto is really just about keeping insulin levels low since I was pre-diabetic at one point in my life.  I will agree that from a fat loss perspective, as opposed to a weight loss perspective, Keto diets and calorie restricted diets can achieve the same result BUT statistically far more people rebound from calorie restricted diets than those that become "fat adapted"  via lower carb intake.

 

The long term efficacy of fat adaptation (or becoming adapted to lower carb intake) is NOT a myth at all.  There is strong scientific evidence to support it.  Maybe you won't hear the actual facts from unschooled YouTube health gurus that rely more on outdated myths and half truths, but you sure will if you start reading well vetted scientific studies from leading academic researchers over last few years.

 

If you need any proof what I am saying about the drawbacks of calorie restricted diets, start by reading this article in Scientific American about an in-depth research study of the participants of the "Biggest Loser" TV series:

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-years-after-the-biggest-loser-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/

 

and then refer to Dr Kevin Hall's interpretation of the study, which is even more illuminating.  If you don't know who he is, he is probably the leading authority on Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases in the world

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/oby.23308

 

 

 

 

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My interest in keto is really just about keeping insulin levels low since I was pre-diabetic at one point in my life.  I will agree that from a fat loss perspective, as opposed to a weight loss perspective, Keto diets and calorie restricted diets can achieve the same result BUT statistically far more people rebound from calorie restricted diets than those that become "fat adapted"  via lower carb intake.

 

The long term efficacy of fat adaptation (or becoming adapted to lower carb intake) is NOT a myth at all.  There is strong scientific evidence to support it.  Maybe you won't hear the actual facts from unschooled YouTube health gurus that rely more on outdated myths and half truths, but you sure will if you start reading well vetted scientific studies from leading academic researchers over last few years.

 

If you need any proof what I am saying about the drawbacks of calorie restricted diets, start by reading this article in Scientific American about an in-depth research study of the participants of the "Biggest Loser" TV series:

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-years-after-the-biggest-loser-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/

 

and then refer to Dr Kevin Hall's interpretation of the study, which is even more illuminating.  If you don't know who he is, he is probably the leading authority on Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases in the world

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/oby.23308

 

 

 

 

Still as I said a religion, since we see facts and proven proof different, and you can find anything you like as proof, but still, clinicle studies is hard to find where you can prove keto is an healthy sustainable solution. Same as Vegeterian and Vegan. A balanced diet will always be the best and easiest to maintain and also the healthiest. Our body is cabable to adopt to anything for short terms because of the different seasons we have eaten different foods, and also our metabolism have been adjusted to the seasons as well. 

 

for a man who is 180cm (average) and 80 kg needs 2000 calorie pr day with little or no exersize daily. If loose weight slowly, he need to eat around 1700 calorie pr day. 2000 calorie is alot of food compare to what we had access to back in the days. However 100 year ago the average hight and weight was 170 cm and around 60 kg for westerns. 

 

The good thing with short term keto, it is easy to control and maintain because lack of cravings, and also a rise in energy level, as well when go to bed hungry, I wake up with a feeling of being full. However the rise of energy level can be a placebo as well, because of doing something different you believe in.

 

I will now go on a mild keto for a couple of months to loose some few kg, but then I go back to a diversed diet again when reached my goal. 

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My interest in keto is really just about keeping insulin levels low since I was pre-diabetic at one point in my life.  I will agree that from a fat loss perspective, as opposed to a weight loss perspective, Keto diets and calorie restricted diets can achieve the same result BUT statistically far more people rebound from calorie restricted diets than those that become "fat adapted"  via lower carb intake.

 

The long term efficacy of fat adaptation (or becoming adapted to lower carb intake) is NOT a myth at all.  There is strong scientific evidence to support it.  Maybe you won't hear the actual facts from unschooled YouTube health gurus that rely more on outdated myths and half truths, but you sure will if you start reading well vetted scientific studies from leading academic researchers over last few years.

 

If you need any proof what I am saying about the drawbacks of calorie restricted diets, start by reading this article in Scientific American about an in-depth research study of the participants of the "Biggest Loser" TV series:

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-years-after-the-biggest-loser-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/

 

and then refer to Dr Kevin Hall's interpretation of the study, which is even more illuminating.  If you don't know who he is, he is probably the leading authority on Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases in the world

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/oby.23308

 

 

 

 

These guys are not unschooled, the difference between these guys and the Keto guru's is that they guys i use don't make money out of keto so they use an unbias look and meta-analysis. The keto gurus on the other hand need to keep pushing their brand and make money use cherry picking of studies. 

 

These unschooled people as you call them train superstars and train many people. They want results, if KETO had such a huge advantage, they would be using it. Because for them the result counts. We are talking about fat loss and body shape. 

 

The guys that Jeff Nippon interviewed were top scientists and who produced scientific papers something I havent seen many of from the KETO gurus. These KETO gurus need to protect their brand, the trainers just want to use the most effective tools.

 

Again your cherry picking with your studies, meta analysis work better as they rely on many studies not just one. (do you see the difference). 

 

OF course the people of the biggest loser got their weight back up as they did not do as the trainers I am talking about work. They make sustainable choices. None of them endorce the things the biggest loser did as it wont work. That is not a sign that calory restrictions dont work. But a sign that diets need to be sustainable.

 

You mentioned yourself you can't lose weight without caloric restrictions, its a scientific fact.  

 

To summize

-keto gurus make money of keto and need to protect their brand 

- Keto gurus don't use meta analysis of studies but cherry pick 

- Keto or not you need a caloric deficit

- Biggest loser is just not sustainable, (basically all the trainers say the same thing diet should be sustainable not extreme)

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

These guys are not unschooled, the difference between these guys and the Keto guru's is that they guys i use don't make money out of keto so they use an unbias look and meta-analysis. The keto gurus on the other hand need to keep pushing their brand and make money use cherry picking of studies. 

 

These unschooled people as you call them train superstars and train many people. They want results, if KETO had such a huge advantage, they would be using it. Because for them the result counts. We are talking about fat loss and body shape. 

 

The guys that Jeff Nippon interviewed were top scientists and who produced scientific papers something I havent seen many of from the KETO gurus. These KETO gurus need to protect their brand, the trainers just want to use the most effective tools.

 

Again your cherry picking with your studies, meta analysis work better as they rely on many studies not just one. (do you see the difference). 

 

OF course the people of the biggest loser got their weight back up as they did not do as the trainers I am talking about work. They make sustainable choices. None of them endorce the things the biggest loser did as it wont work. That is not a sign that calory restrictions dont work. But a sign that diets need to be sustainable.

 

You mentioned yourself you can't lose weight without caloric restrictions, its a scientific fact.  

 

To summize

-keto gurus make money of keto and need to protect their brand 

- Keto gurus don't use meta analysis of studies but cherry pick 

- Keto or not you need a caloric deficit

- Biggest loser is just not sustainable, (basically all the trainers say the same thing diet should be sustainable not extreme)

 

Oh I don't deny that many Keto "Gurus", especially those on YouTube are primarily interested in monetizing Keto for their own ends, but the same is true for those anti-Keto Gurus who vehemently oppose Keto without even understanding the underlying metabolic science of hormones and how they really work in relation to fat metabolism.

 

So I pretty much discount everything I hear on YouTube other than to use it as search terms to find bona-fide scientific research from reputable sources, and then vet the research for bias (i.e.: who is funding the research).  I mean if you read a scathing research report on Keto, and then see that the research is being funded by the Amercian Sugar Council...well, need I say more?

 

Many of the scientists I follow who have issues with diets based purely on caloric restriction are those like Kevin Hall from the National Institute of Health.  I assure you he is no "false guru" spreading misinformation for his own gain.  His laboratory investigates how metabolism and the brain adapt in response to a variety of interventions to diet and physical activity, and he is respected in the scientific community as one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on these topics, and approaches his research without bias or prejudice.

 

Keto Gurus may cherry pick, but legitimate researchers do not.

 

Yes, you need a calorie deficit to lose fat.  I don't deny that, but you ALSO need hormonal modifications so that fat loss can occur without being countered by a slowed down metabolism, and also to assure that the hormonal state is primed to use fat as fuel, and not just store it. That is what Keto does; it address the hormonal side of the picture that caloric restriction diets do not address.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by WaveHunter

[Hummin]

14 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Oh I don't deny that many Keto "Gurus", especially those on YouTube are primarily interested in monetizing Keto for their own ends, but the same is true for those anti-Keto Gurus who vehemently oppose Keto without even understanding the underlying metabolic science of hormones and how they really work in relation to fat metabolism.

 

So I pretty much discount everything I hear on YouTube other than to use it as search terms to find bona-fide scientific research from reputable sources, and then vet the research for bias (i.e.: who is funding the research).  I mean if you read a scathing research report on Keto, and then see that the research is being funded by the Amercian Sugar Council...well, need I say more?

 

Many of the scientists I follow who have issues with diets based purely on caloric restriction are those like Kevin Hall from the National Institute of Health.  I assure you he is no "false guru" spreading misinformation for his own gain.  His laboratory investigates how metabolism and the brain adapt in response to a variety of interventions to diet and physical activity, and he is respected in the scientific community as one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on these topics, and approaches his research without bias or prejudice.

 

Keto Gurus may cherry pick, but legitimate researchers do not.

 

Yes, you need a calorie deficit to lose fat.  I don't deny that, but you ALSO need hormonal modifications so that fat loss can occur without being countered by a slowed down metabolism, and also to assure that the hormonal state is primed to use fat as fuel, and not just store it. That is what Keto does; it address the hormonal side of the picture that caloric restriction diets do not address.

 

Quite interesting to know wild animal meat have less than 5% fat and domesticated animals have 25 to 30 percent. It doesnt make sense to believe 75% fat in our diet would be beneficial long term. Or what? 

 

And this is coming after thousands of high activity and low carb diets, and first the last 50 years we have slowed down activity and start eating more meat, more processed food, more quick carbs. 

 

My guess is our body is not tuned for long term keto. 

 

If we chew our food longer, it have an beneficial effect, so do more activity troughout days. 

 

Another thing we work longer, and we live longer, and that also influence how we are and become as well. 1000 years ago, average lifespan would be around 35 - 40 years. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

23 hours ago, Hummin said:

Quite interesting to know wild animal meat have less than 5% fat and domesticated animals have 25 to 30 percent. It doesnt make sense to believe 75% fat in our diet would be beneficial long term. Or what? 

 

And this is coming after thousands of high activity and low carb diets, and first the last 50 years we have slowed down activity and start eating more meat, more processed food, more quick carbs. 

 

My guess is our body is not tuned for long term keto. 

 

If we chew our food longer, it have an beneficial effect, so do more activity troughout days. 

 

Another thing we work longer, and we live longer, and that also influence how we are and become as well. 1000 years ago, average lifespan would be around 35 - 40 years. 

 

 

Science-based studies indicate the typical modern diet that leans toward heavily processed foods with high carbohydrate content are unhealthy in the long term.  The true concept of keto nutrition really only addresses this, and nothing else. 

 

There are too many health gurus pushing "Keto" as some sort of miracle diet for weight loss when that is not what keto is really all about at all.

 

The human body is uniquely tuned to being able to take advantage of BOTH glucose and ketone bodies as equally important fuel sources for the body. 

 

Unlike many other mammal, our bodies can utilize ketone bodies as a fuel source for the brain, and also to allow the breakdown of stored fat into fatty acids that can fuel the body, and if it wasn't for this fact our species would have died off thousands of years ago.  

 

The reliance on ketone bodies to maintain optimal fat metabolism is in our DNA as a vital mechanism for metabolic homeostasis, not simply something you use to lose weight.

 

Ketone bodies serve an important function for optimal metabolic health but like most biological functions, if they are not regularly used, they become less efficient at doing what they were intended to do.

 

In today's modern world, most people do not even go more than a few hours between consuming a meal or snacking, so essentially they are always in a fed-state, running only glucose alone, and thus, never producing ketone bodies.  That is a major metabolic dysfunction pushing the body out of homeostasis.

 

As a result, the metabolic pathways for for fat metabolism are greatly impaired, and that results in a whole host of metabolic dysfunctions.

 

More than any other reason, that is why, in the last fifty years or so, obesity, diabetes type-2, and many other metabolic syndromes have grown at alarming rates.

 

Only fifty years ago, diabetes type-2 was practically unheard of in children but today in an environment of fast foods and junk foods (all specifically marketed to children), and essentially eating from the moment they are out of bed to the moment they go to sleep, obesity and diabetes-2 in children have become truly EPIDEMIC! 

 

The link between highly processed carbohydrates and these conditions is unmistakable, and it is not so much the carbohydrates themselves that cause the problem, but it is the resultant impairment of metabolic pathways for fat metabolism (i.e.: ketone bodies not being able to do their job) that is the real culprit.

 

The answer is nutrition that is lower in these dangerous and highly processed carbohydrate-rich foods, and more restricted eating (i.e. no more food grazing all day long) , allowing the body to efficiently utilize ketone bodies to regulate stored fat metabolism, as they were intended to do.  In other words, to restore homeostasis.

 

THAT IS WHAT KETO IS REALLY ALL ABOUT.

Edited January 19, 2022 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

On 1/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, WaveHunter said:

Science-based studies indicate the typical modern diet that leans toward heavily processed foods with high carbohydrate content are unhealthy in the long term.  The true concept of keto nutrition really only addresses this, and nothing else. 

 

There are too many health gurus pushing "Keto" as some sort of miracle diet for weight loss when that is not what keto is really all about at all.

 

The human body is uniquely tuned to being able to take advantage of BOTH glucose and ketone bodies as equally important fuel sources for the body. 

 

Unlike many other mammal, our bodies can utilize ketone bodies as a fuel source for the brain, and also to allow the breakdown of stored fat into fatty acids that can fuel the body, and if it wasn't for this fact our species would have died off thousands of years ago.  

 

The reliance on ketone bodies to maintain optimal fat metabolism is in our DNA as a vital mechanism for metabolic homeostasis, not simply something you use to lose weight.

 

Ketone bodies serve an important function for optimal metabolic health but like most biological functions, if they are not regularly used, they become less efficient at doing what they were intended to do.

 

In today's modern world, most people do not even go more than a few hours between consuming a meal or snacking, so essentially they are always in a fed-state, running only glucose alone, and thus, never producing ketone bodies.  That is a major metabolic dysfunction pushing the body out of homeostasis.

 

As a result, the metabolic pathways for for fat metabolism are greatly impaired, and that results in a whole host of metabolic dysfunctions.

 

More than any other reason, that is why, in the last fifty years or so, obesity, diabetes type-2, and many other metabolic syndromes have grown at alarming rates.

 

Only fifty years ago, diabetes type-2 was practically unheard of in children but today in an environment of fast foods and junk foods (all specifically marketed to children), and essentially eating from the moment they are out of bed to the moment they go to sleep, obesity and diabetes-2 in children have become truly EPIDEMIC! 

 

The link between highly processed carbohydrates and these conditions is unmistakable, and it is not so much the carbohydrates themselves that cause the problem, but it is the resultant impairment of metabolic pathways for fat metabolism (i.e.: ketone bodies not being able to do their job) that is the real culprit.

 

The answer is nutrition that is lower in these dangerous and highly processed carbohydrate-rich foods, and more restricted eating (i.e. no more food grazing all day long) , allowing the body to efficiently utilize ketone bodies to regulate stored fat metabolism, as they were intended to do.  In other words, to restore homeostasis.

 

THAT IS WHAT KETO IS REALLY ALL ABOUT.

In the main lines we agree. But every diet takes out the highly processed foods. There are few people who believe they are good for a diet. So that is not Keto that is common sense. 

 

Studies have shown that real low carb is not needed, to low carbs is actually bad for you as you miss out on fibers (hard to get enough fibers from just veggies) and other nutrients that good carbs like oats can offer. Do we need carbs maybe not but we do need the fibers and vitamins in fruits that keto does not allows for.

 

If you take meta analysis then we can see that keto is not much better if better at all. They have done tests in metaboic chambers to see if keto gives better metabolic rate (gold standard research in house for a month). Though the keto boys then said it was too short. Now if those keto lovers were so sure of their case why did they never fund the research for a period longer then a month in a labratory ?. Probably because it would not show what they wanted and they prefer not to spend the money to finance it and keep spreading the myth.

 

Does it help to make your body better attuned to insulin, yes it does. But that already happens once we cut out the processed carbs and start exercising. (exercise has a great effect on insulin sensitivity). Also the idea that calories don't count as promoted by keto gurus has been proven wrong. I know you believe in a combination of both.

 

I would say cut out processed foods, make sure your on a caloric deficit and then all is good. Rotate foods or add some multivitamins as in a caloric deficit its hard to get all nutrients and your set to go.

 

So im not sure its ketone bodies that do this as even with a higher carb content (but no processed food) people seem to lose as much fat as those on full on keto. The body is a wonderful thing and can adapt well.

 

Though in my case its also a strange thing. I can stay on a weight for a while then drop a kg or more overnight and it stays off. For others weight loss is more linear. There are a lot of theories on it and one is that stress / lack of sleep is also a big factor.

 

For the fat loss that happens over night Lyle Mcdonalds has a theory too, according to him after you lose fat some people hold water (from the stress the body is under by exercise and diet). Then with a good carb meal or just patience at some point it flushes out and progress is reviewed. Basically that is what always happens to me when i lose weight. It can be frustrating. 

 

But today I had one of those days overnight lost over kg and look a lot leaner. That gives me faith that i got the amount of food and the kind of food i eat right.

 

(high protein / veggies / healthy carbs fats). Most research points to high protein as the berst diet strategy combined with resistance training (weight lifting for instance ) and cardio.

[Hummin]

On 1/19/2022 at 10:39 AM, WaveHunter said:

Science-based studies indicate the typical modern diet that leans toward heavily processed foods with high carbohydrate content are unhealthy in the long term.  The true concept of keto nutrition really only addresses this, and nothing else. 

 

There are too many health gurus pushing "Keto" as some sort of miracle diet for weight loss when that is not what keto is really all about at all.

 

The human body is uniquely tuned to being able to take advantage of BOTH glucose and ketone bodies as equally important fuel sources for the body. 

 

Unlike many other mammal, our bodies can utilize ketone bodies as a fuel source for the brain, and also to allow the breakdown of stored fat into fatty acids that can fuel the body, and if it wasn't for this fact our species would have died off thousands of years ago.  The reliance on ketone bodies to maintain optimal fat metabolism is in our DNA as a vital mechanism for metabolic homeostasis, not simply something you use to lose weight.

 

Ketone bodies serve an important function for optimal metabolic health but like most biological functions, if they are not regularly used, they become less efficient at doing what they were intended to do.

 

In today's modern world, most people do not even go more than a few hours between consumption of food, so essentially they are always in a fed-state, running only glucose alone, while never producing ketone bodies.  That is a major metabolic dysfunction pushing the body out of homeostasis.

 

As a result, the metabolic pathways for for fat metabolism are greatly impaired, and that results in a whole host of metabolic dysfunctions.

 

More than any other reason, that is why, in the last fifty years or so, obesity, diabetes type-2, and many other metabolic syndromes have grown at alarming rates.

 

Only fifty years ago, diabetes type-2 was practically unheard of in children but today in an environment of fast foods and junk foods (all specifically marketed to children), and essentially eating from the moment they are out of bed to the moment they go to sleep, obesity and diabetes-2 in children have become truly EPIDEMIC! 

 

The link between highly processed carbohydrates and these conditions is unmistakable, and it is not so much the carbohydrates themselves that cause the problem, but it is the resultant impairment of metabolic pathways for fat metabolism (i.e.: ketone bodies not being able to do their job) that is the real culprit.

 

The answer is nutrition that is lower in these dangerous and highly processed carbohydrate-rich foods, and more restricted eating (i.e. no more food grazing all day long) , allowing the body to efficiently utilize ketone bodies to regulate stored fat metabolism, as they were intended to do.  In other words, to restore homeostasis.

 

THAT IS WHAT KETO IS REALLY ALL ABOUT.

You shooting way over the target when you start talking about processed food again and again!

Processed food is not on my menu or should be for any who is trying to live healthy. 

 

Balanced diet as rob says, and not so in to high protein anymore, since I'm only maintaining the mass I already got. 

 

Everything else's become a religion as mentioned earlier and for some over the edge to extreme fanatics.

 

I know the fuel and energy it gives when you read, believe and feel, but at the same time easy to loose reality and common sense! 

 

We want to believe, therefore it becomes a truth. Hopefully for a short period and can rethink and restart with a bit more sense and understanding. Be it politics, diets, or religion to cars, motorbikes and soccer team, some go fanatics

 

[dj230]

I like fruit for breakfast

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Hummin said:

You shooting way over the target when you start talking about processed food again and again!

Processed food is not on my menu or should be for any who is trying to live healthy. 

 

Balanced diet as rob says, and not so in to high protein anymore, since I'm only maintaining the mass I already got. 

 

Everything else's become a religion as mentioned earlier and for some over the edge to extreme fanatics.

 

I know the fuel and energy it gives when you read, believe and feel, but at the same time easy to loose reality and common sense! 

 

We want to believe, therefore it becomes a truth. Hopefully for a short period and can rethink and restart with a bit more sense and understanding. Be it politics, diets, or religion to cars, motorbikes and soccer team, some go fanatics

 

There is quite a bit of research that we need high protein when losing weight (less when maintaining). I certainly am not building any muscle any more (maybe can improve on some point minimally). Been reading and listening about protein requirements and they are now shown to be higher as we age as we process it not as good as we did when younger.

 

I think anyone talking about processed food and the standard american diet is indeed overshooting. Nobody with an ounce of sense would use that if they want to lose weight. However in the end its more about calories then anything else.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html  

 

For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.

His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.

The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by robblok

[robblok]

@Hummin

 

Not saying that its a good diet as the article shows. But it also proves the folly in believing you need ketones to lose bodyweight or that ketones have magical properties. 

 

Most of the vids from trainers who get people to lose weight and gain muscle is a healthy diet. These guys make money and look good themselves. Now not saying that it counts for much how one looks but have you looked at the keto gurus like garry taubes and jason fung. They certainly don't practice what they preach.

 

Those trainers say, if keto works for you great for you if something else works great. Don't be restrictive, be sustainable. OMAD great if it works, IFF great. and if it fits in your macros eat it great too. As long as you can keep to it and have a caloric deficit they all work.

 

They make money by getting results. Not demonizing carbs or sugars or whatever. So it stands to reason they would go for the best method available. From their experience that is not the perfect diet (if there is such a thing) but something people can stick to. Even weight watchers and counting calories works. Its about adherence not about method.

 

Just like sports diets should fit the person as consistency over time works best.

 

I am an example of falling off the wagon at times, covid did a number on me mentally combined with moving from my normal location to the heart of BKK (so much bad foods available) made me gain weight. Now for the last few months i been removing that weight with good succes. 

 

I can perfectly maintain my weight normally, as long as i don't drink sweet stuff (my nemmesis). For me it only works if i totally cut it out. One glas becomes two and three. But the secret is knowing yourself. Now if for wavehunter keto and his version of it works that is great. Let him use it for himself. 

 

Pushing a certain diet is folly, as long as you cut processed foods and calories any diet will work and will be good. No magic has extra good diet has ever been found. But they all agree that processed foods are bad. (though even the trainers will eat it occasionally) According to them there are times you will have to if you want your social life to be ok.

 

Else a diner with friends can become a drama or having a family a hinderance. For people like me who are not that social (i eat separate from my gf) its not a problem. But if her friends have a party and we go to a restaurant and I feel i have to be there too (happens at times) i will eat what is available. You can't expect people to all fit their habits around you. 

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Was all this research on diet done before, or after you injected yourself with a yet to be understood “rushed concoction” chemical cocktail that made your teeth chatter after inoculation? 

tinfoilhat alert. Have fun living in your own world. Now go and derail an other topic.

[robblok]

On 1/16/2022 at 4:28 PM, strikingsunset said:

Hi, I am using the Concept 2 Rower, you say 5000m   in 22 minutes, to me that is stunning, I can get to 27 minutes at a push , is it my age ( shortly 67) or do i need to review my technique

I was mistaken, there is technique involved. I now post two rows just 1 day apart. The first one was my fasted time up till then and i thought id never break it. The second one is the day after with me going at a slower stroke rate and pushing harder with my legs bending far more forward at  the end of a stroke (after recovery) so i could use my legs better. the difference is crazy.

 

Stroke rate also lower

[Sparktrader]

No breakfast for 3 months. Dont need it. Drink water with sodium, potassium and magnesium.

 

You only need to eat once a day.

[Sparktrader]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:15 PM, robblok said:

There is quite a bit of research that we need high protein when losing weight (less when maintaining). I certainly am not building any muscle any more (maybe can improve on some point minimally). Been reading and listening about protein requirements and they are now shown to be higher as we age as we process it not as good as we did when younger.

 

I think anyone talking about processed food and the standard american diet is indeed overshooting. Nobody with an ounce of sense would use that if they want to lose weight. However in the end its more about calories then anything else.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html  

 

For 10 weeks, Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, ate one of these sugary cakelets every three hours, instead of meals. To add variety in his steady stream of Hostess and Little Debbie snacks, Haub munched on Doritos chips, sugary cereals and Oreos, too.

His premise: That in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.

The premise held up: On his "convenience store diet," he shed 27 pounds in two months.

 

 

 

 

 

Flawed study. Try it for 2 years. The insulin spikes will get you long run.

 

These 2 month studies are useless.

 

Long term studies indicate meat, veges, fruit are the best. Ie natural food.

 

Eat slowly. Get enough protein.

 

 

[2009]

6 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

No breakfast for 3 months. Dont need it. Drink water with sodium, potassium and magnesium.

 

You only need to eat once a day.

Where do you get your sodium, potassium, and magnesium?

[Sparktrader]

23 minutes ago, 2009 said:

Where do you get your sodium, potassium, and magnesium?

Buy a powder from pharmacy. 

[Sparktrader]

Google fasting salts

[robblok]

13 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

Flawed study. Try it for 2 years. The insulin spikes will get you long run.

 

These 2 month studies are useless.

 

Long term studies indicate meat, veges, fruit are the best. Ie natural food.

 

Eat slowly. Get enough protein.

 

 

Not a flawed study it shows the concepts of calories in vs calories out and the lies about keto. Because Keto and low carb people always say you can't lose fat when there is insulin and stuff like that. This proves that even on sugary stuff the body has still enough time to burn fats. So not a flawed study proof of concepts.

 

But if you read the story you would have seen that he never says its healthy (just like i dont say its healthy). But it shows that if you cut out processed stuff it does not matter if your high or low carb for fat burning.

[robblok]

16 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

No breakfast for 3 months. Dont need it. Drink water with sodium, potassium and magnesium.

 

You only need to eat once a day.

If you like it that way good for you. But there is no need for it. People should just do what fits them best. OMAD might be ok for some but most people would not like / need it.

 

Its all about the amount of calories you get in your body. If you just remove processed foods then the rest does not really matter. Low carb / high carb / OMAD ect. 

Its all a matter of preference as long as you stick to the basic rules of trying to remove processed foods and keep calories at a certain level. If you do that then it does not matter.

 

There are no secret hacks, no secret ratios that make you burn fat better, no special benefits for times of eating (besides that you limit your calories that way).

 

So much research has proven this a good meta study of all diets (but only the ones that were done in labratories so no self reporting) showed absolutely no difference between diets. (some individual differences though as some respond better to some diets). But that is something that you need to find out.

 

Problem with OMAD / KETO / Carnivor / Paleo is that they all cherry pick their studies. To prove their point. While in reality all you need to do is remove processed foods and the rest is up to you. You can go keto / Paleo / OMAD whatever. But there is no one diet fit all or one is more superior then others. There just is not.

 

I do agree about the minerals thing. I made the stupid mistake of forgetting about salt and because of my cardio i ended up tired / no energy / could not concentrate / could not do my exercise ect. Once I added salt things were a lot better.

 

Never removed it on purpose but once you cut out processed foods you get a lot less salt in your diet and if your new diet does not have much salt you might have to add it. Those minerals are important to keep you hydrated and if you exercise you need even more.

[WaveHunter]

I was doing OMAD like forever, but now I'm seriously rethinking that.  I guess it might not matter of you lead a more or less sedentary life but if you are active with sports and other heavy physical activity, you can't really cram all of your protein into a single meal...and that's especially true once you are over 50 since your protein requirements increase markedly after that.

 

For the last year I've had serious issue with post workout recovery, and I'm almost certain now it had to do with just not getting enough protein.  Sure, you can eat a huge steak or other foods to meet your daily quota, but your body just can not assimilate what it needs for muscle protein synthesis from a single meal.  I think it takes at least two spaced meals per day for that to occur.

 

Now it's true that nobody really has the answers right now; the topic is quite controversial.  I am eating two meals a day now and may go to three.  It will take time to know if it has apositive effect or not, but all the hyped benefits of OMAD are (IMHO) perhaps over-hyped, and all the association with lowered potential for Diabetes by going OMAD are also a little over-hyped...I think.

[Sparktrader]

Omad meal

3 eggs

Meat

Rice n veges

Apple n banana

 

You dont need more than that.

 

Split into 2 meals within 4 hrs still fast 20 hrs.

 

Its all about reducing insulin. 20 hrs fasted better than 16.

 

Dont need keto. Just fast 20 hrs a day.

 

 

[CharlieH]

I recently stopped oatmeal yogurt fruit and protein powder for breakfast.

I havnt noticed ANY  difference.i am not hungry and dont miss it at all.

I now just have a protein shake made with fresh fruit and protein powder.

 

My body composition has changed but weight is not moving in the right direction as yet.

 

As others have said, its about finding YOUR balance and what is right and sustainable for your lifestyle.

Its not easy as we are all different. I dont believe there is a one fits all routine/diet.

Calorie deficit, exercise regularly and be persistent.

[Sparktrader]

Try fasting 20 hrs. Eat 11am to 3pm. Better sleep, detox daily.

[partington]

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

Try fasting 20 hrs. Eat 11am to 3pm. Better sleep, detox daily.

Except there is no such thing as detox. Doesn't exist in medical textbooks, no real meaning other than marketing technique for dubious activities that have little or no effect on anything, other than make you feel happy at having done a ritual.

[Sparktrader]

3 minutes ago, partington said:

Except there is no such thing as detox. Doesn't exist in medical textbooks, no real meaning other than marketing technique for dubious activities that have little or no effect on anything, other than make you feel happy at having done a ritual.

Essentially, fasting cleanses our body of toxins and forces cells into processes that are not usually stimulated when a steady stream of fuel from food is always present. When we fast, the body does not have its usual access to glucose, forcing the cells to resort to other means and materials to produce energy.