What am I missing ?

[CharlieH]

What am I missing ?

 

There is so much Covid , vax /anti vax information accesible etc just about everywhere its hard to know what is accurate reliable and so on.

 

So, with that in mind, and based on my understanding of things.......

 

Being vaccinated...

Does not stop you contracting the virus.

Does not stop you carrying it or giving it to others.

Does not stop the need for mask nor social distance.

It may stop you from becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus.

 

So why do peple need vax certificates etc to enter places or do their job or travel as being vaccinated makes no difference to others (as per the above) ?

 

Why are the "power that be" so determined  to vaccinate if it actually makes no difference to  contracting carrying or paasing it to others and only effects your own personal health of which there are no guarantees and if it goes wrong, no comeback.

 

So if it ONLY effects you, should that not then be entirely your decision as per any other medical condition/procedure as to whether or not you get vaccinated ?

 

What am I missing ?  As this makes no logical sense to me to insist on something for public safety that actually has no impact on others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaLa]

The earth is not flat

The US did land a man on the moon

9/11 was not an inside job by the US / Silverstein whoever

Oswald shot Kennedy

 

But I'd love to be around in 50 years when the truth comes out with regard to this pandemic. Something doesn't add up.

Edited September 19, 2021 by DaLa
Missing words to clarify

[Pravda]

I think maybe the viral load is smaller among vaccinated population. Just a guess without googling and doing any research.

[coolcarer]

Fair questions, to sum up for me personally without going into details, it’s like having to wear a seat belt when driving, it helps but you can still have a serious accident that will land you in hospital or worse. 
 

 

[KannikaP]

And the wearing of masks is to stop YOU from spraying your Covid laden spittle onto others who are less than 2 metres away from you.

Hence you MUST wear one whilst riding a motor bike without a helmet or in the car with the old lady you slept with!   555

[olfu]

You missing main point.

There is big ruling class of people who interested in self-preservation and if they let you talk without permission they call it freedom of speech.

And reality of the day become past next day.

[Airalee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milieu_control

[zzaa09]

The bigger picture.....?

[Fat is a type of crazy]

I think Step 1  is that if everyone can't get the vaccine, like in Thailand and Australia, then it's seen to be the governments fault if they open up and lots of people die. So they have strict rules in the meantime. 

But if everyone has had the opportunity to get it but some choose not to, like in the US and UK, then it's all personal responsibility and they can open up.

Once a country reaches a point where all who want it, can get it, one might assume a huge majority would choose to get it. But in the US, in particular, many refuse due to stubbornness, lack of education, mental issues and other factors.

So Step 2  is that the US government, for example, feel they have a social role to educate people  that getting a vaccine is a much better option than catching covid. They are now adding incentives to be vaccinated and penalties for the unvaccinated. 

They see that people are refusing to take the vaccine, despite the vaccine being available, leading to overflowing hospitals and people dying needlessly. People with other illnesses can't get care too. 

This is happening in the southern US states.

So the bottom line is not being vaccinated affects the health care system and leads to unnecessary deaths. No government wants that and so they make rules to have as many vaccinated as possible. For the good of the nation. 

 

 

[placeholder]

 

Here's what you're missing:

When you put on a seatbelt, do you believe that it makes you invulnerable in case of a crash? Or do you believe it lessens the odds of injury or death?

You seem to accept the need for masks. Do you believe that they are 100% effective in keeping you from transmitting the virus to others? Or contracting it yourself? Or rather that they lessen the odds?

As for "it may you from becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus", you seem to acknowledge the issue of probability, after all. Although the use of "may" is clearly your way of minimizing the issue. "May", really?  Why do you fail to acknowledge the huge difference in probability between the unvaccinated and vaccinated in "becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus". The evidence is overwhelming that vaccination massively decreases the odds of becoming worse or seriously ill. And I notice that you neglected to mention the little matter of mortality. As I've noted elsewhere, Pennsylvania is the latest state to report its statistics on covid: 97% of those who died were unvaccinated. 

[Tony125]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

Here's what you're missing:

When you put on a seatbelt, do you believe that it makes you invulnerable in case of a crash? Or do you believe it lessens the odds of injury or death?

You seem to accept the need for masks. Do you believe that they are 100% effective in keeping you from transmitting the virus to others? Or contracting it yourself? Or rather that they lessen the odds?

As for "it may you from becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus", you seem to acknowledge the issue of probability, after all. Although the use of "may" is clearly your way of minimizing the issue. "May", really?  Why do you fail to acknowledge the huge difference in probability between the unvaccinated and vaccinated in "becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus". The evidence is overwhelming that vaccination massively decreases the odds of becoming worse or seriously ill. And I notice that you neglected to mention the little matter of mortality. As I've noted elsewhere, Pennsylvania is the latest state to report its statistics on covid: 97% of those who died were unvaccinated. 

A doctor from Oregon who said mask-wearing can lead to carbon monoxide poisoning got his medical license revoked

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-doctor-from-oregon-who-said-mask-wearing-can-lead-to-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-got-his-medical-license-revoked/ar-AAOAsgM?li=BBnb7Kz

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Pravda said:

I think maybe the viral load is smaller among vaccinated population. Just a guess without googling and doing any research.

That's fine, the OP didn't either.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Pravda said:

I think maybe the viral load is smaller among vaccinated population. Just a guess without googling and doing any research.

There was a study from Singapore that showed the viral load could reach the same level but that it persisted for a much shorter period of time.

[Chomper Higgot]

What you are missing Charlie is in your use of language, which I suspect was fed you.

 

Replace ‘Does not stop’ with ‘Significantly reduces’.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

A picture tells a thousand words.

 

No defense is perfect, but layers of defense can be extremely effective:

 

 

[Scott]

I don't know that you are missing anything.  There is a lot of confusing information floating around and not all of it is misinformation.  Your questions are valid.

 

A lot of what gets into the news as 'studies' are observed situations.  They may or may not be correct.   So, in many countries masks had come off only to be put back on based on a very small, observed data.  It was correct, but it wasn't until a lot more information was available that we were sure.  

 

No vaccine is 100% effective and no vaccine stops the virus from entering our body.  If you are in contact with an infected person, it will get in.   Vaccinated people will mount both an accurate and a quick response to it.   This keeps you from getting seriously ill.  With the original Covid-19 vaccinated people were at a low risk of infecting others.  The same was true with some of the other variants.  Then came Delta.  You still have protection, but you are capable of shedding a significant amount of virus.  So masks are needed.  

 

There still is a lot we don't know about this virus.   We do know that being vaccinated means a significantly better chance of avoiding severe illness.  

 

Why not let this be a personal choice?   Well, in a lot of places it falls under public health laws and regulations.  Most reasonably developed countries don't let you walk around with a communicable disease.   In the US the following diseases are subject to mandatory quarantine:   Cholera, Diphtheria, (infectious) tuberculosis, plague, smallpox, yellow fever, Ebola, SARS, MERS and Covid-19.

 

As long as you can present as a public health concern, vaccines may be required.  

[cdemundo]

7 hours ago, CharlieH said:

Does not stop you contracting the virus.

Does not stop you carrying it or giving it to others.

Does not stop the need for mask nor social distance.

It may stop you from becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus.

(Does not stop) greatly reduces the risk of you contracting the virus.

(Does not stop) greatly reduces the risk of you carrying it or giving it to others.

(Does not stop the need for) Increases the reduction of risk if you mask or social distance.

It greatly reduces the risk of becoming worse/seriously ill if you do contract the virus.

 

Both statements are true, does not stop/greatly reduces.

It requires judgment to interpret the information.

Surely you can see the difference and make the judgement.

 

Look at the difference in hospitalizations between vaccinated and non-vaccinated in US hospitals.

[Jingthing]

Another way to look at this.

If you're not vaccinated, eventually pretty much every unvaccinated person will be infected with this virus in Delta stage, and if you're not vaccinated, you're much more likely to be hospitalized or die. 

Society trying to limit the speed of the rate of infection of the unvaccinated is a way of not overwhelming hospitals (so that people with other conditions can be treated). 

Also making access barriers for the unvaccinated serves as an incentive for them to get vaccinated, that is short of a mandate.

The more unvaccinated people there are, the bigger the problem.

Nobody is talking about eliminating Covid 19 anymore, but massive vaccination rates can make things much more manageable for ALL. 

This is bigger then personal responsibility and personal risk taking. 

It's a social responsibility to get vaccinated.

Choosing to not get vaccinated if you have access to vaccines and don't have a medical condition ruling it out is downright anti-social behavior. 

Humans live in societies. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jeffr2]

If you follow the proper news sources, you'll get the proper information. No misleading or fake information.

 

Stay away from social media. At all costs.

 

It's well known what's going on with this virus and the unvaccinated.

[placeholder]

10 hours ago, Scott said:

I don't know that you are missing anything.  There is a lot of confusing information floating around and not all of it is misinformation.  Your questions are valid.

 

A lot of what gets into the news as 'studies' are observed situations.  They may or may not be correct.   So, in many countries masks had come off only to be put back on based on a very small, observed data.  It was correct, but it wasn't until a lot more information was available that we were sure.  

 

No vaccine is 100% effective and no vaccine stops the virus from entering our body.  If you are in contact with an infected person, it will get in.   Vaccinated people will mount both an accurate and a quick response to it.   This keeps you from getting seriously ill.  With the original Covid-19 vaccinated people were at a low risk of infecting others.  The same was true with some of the other variants.  Then came Delta.  You still have protection, but you are capable of shedding a significant amount of virus.  So masks are needed.  

 

There still is a lot we don't know about this virus.   We do know that being vaccinated means a significantly better chance of avoiding severe illness.  

 

Why not let this be a personal choice?   Well, in a lot of places it falls under public health laws and regulations.  Most reasonably developed countries don't let you walk around with a communicable disease.   In the US the following diseases are subject to mandatory quarantine:   Cholera, Diphtheria, (infectious) tuberculosis, plague, smallpox, yellow fever, Ebola, SARS, MERS and Covid-19.

 

As long as you can present as a public health concern, vaccines may be required.  

On second thought, I do agree with you, in a way. CharlieH is not missing anything but rather willfully distorting the evidence as exposed by the internal contradictions in the statements he offers to justify his alleged puzzlement. On the one hand he states absolutely that vaccinations don't stop people from contracting the virus or spreading it to others. But it's not a question of absolutes, is it? It does reduce the risk.

On the other hand, he claims that vaccinations "may" reduce the severity of symptoms. So here he's acknowledging probability but in a way that minimizes the effect of vaccines. The odds are very strong that vaccines will reduce the severity of symptoms.  

But what really gives his game away is the fact that he makes no mention at all of mortality. Most of us would think that death is the worst thing that covid can result in. Are we to believe that CharlieH doesn't? Pretty glaring omission, no? I guess those facts that show overwhelmingly that the unvaccinated run a far graver risk of dying from Covid  were just too damning to address.

 

And just to clear something up...vaccines can and do prevent infections. Vaccines may not stop a virus from entering the body, but they can stop that virus from getting that body to produce more copies of itself. If the virus is unsuccessful at hijacking those cellular processes, then it hasn't infected the body. That's why the CDC explicitly says that Covid vaccinations can prevent infections.

 

"COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing infection, serious illness, and death. Most people who get COVID-19 are unvaccinated. However, since vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing infection, some people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19. "

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html

 

[Scott]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

On second thought, I do agree with you, in a way. CharlieH is not missing anything but rather willfully distorting the evidence as exposed by the internal contradictions in the statements he offers to justify his alleged puzzlement. On the one hand he states absolutely that vaccinations don't stop people from contracting the virus or spreading it to others. But it's not a question of absolutes, is it? It does reduce the risk.

On the other hand, he claims that vaccinations "may" reduce the severity of symptoms. So here he's acknowledging probability but in a way that minimizes the effect of vaccines. The odds are very strong that vaccines will reduce the severity of symptoms.  

But what really gives his game away is the fact that he makes no mention at all of mortality. Most of us would think that death is the worst thing that covid can result in. Are we to believe that CharlieH doesn't? Pretty glaring omission, no? I guess those facts that show overwhelmingly that the unvaccinated run a far graver risk of dying from Covid  were just too damning to address.

 

And just to clear something up...vaccines can and do prevent infections. Vaccines may not stop a virus from entering the body, but they can stop that virus from getting that body to produce more copies of itself. If the virus is unsuccessful at hijacking those cellular processes, then it hasn't infected the body. That's why the CDC explicitly says that Covid vaccinations can prevent infections.

 

"COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing infection, serious illness, and death. Most people who get COVID-19 are unvaccinated. However, since vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing infection, some people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19. "

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html

 

All I can say is that if you listen to the news and read much of the media, there is a lot of white noise.  We were led to believe that we could remove our masks once fully vaccinated, then Delta came along.   The fact is that even with the original strain and early variants, we were mildly contagious but viral shedding was mild enough and the R₀ was low enough to make it safe.  Sick people still needed to quarantine.   Without a full explanation, which usually isn't given, it sounds contradictory.   In Western countries it was not an easy pill to swallow when the masks came off and then had to go back on.  

 

Now, we find this vaccine isn't as good as that vaccine, one vaccine works better against Delta than another one.   It does get quite confusing especially for people who just want to go about their lives and get clear cut information.  

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Scott said:

All I can say is that if you listen to the news and read much of the media, there is a lot of white noise.  We were led to believe that we could remove our masks once fully vaccinated, then Delta came along.   The fact is that even with the original strain and early variants, we were mildly contagious but viral shedding was mild enough and the R₀ was low enough to make it safe.  Sick people still needed to quarantine.   Without a full explanation, which usually isn't given, it sounds contradictory.   In Western countries it was not an easy pill to swallow when the masks came off and then had to go back on.  

 

Now, we find this vaccine isn't as good as that vaccine, one vaccine works better against Delta than another one.   It does get quite confusing especially for people who just want to go about their lives and get clear cut information.  

 

Please. When someone goes to the trouble to write those objections, and presents them in an internally inconsistent and misleading way, I don't think it's unreasonable to doubt their bona fides. His presentation certainly demonstrated more than a little familiarity with the issue. The fact that mortality wasn't even mentioned by the OP says it all.

[Dario]

Charlie, it is confusing for most of us.

 

I understand all what you say is correct. Still, we need to be all vaccinated, for the simple reason: it most possibly protect you from death. If you catch covid and have been vaccinated twice with a booster shot when it comes due, you might not end up in an ICU.  What those people have to endure, I don't ever would like to be confronted with.

So, at least two covid shots for any adult is a must. It can save your life something like 90.0%+ for sure. Sow, we all must do it. I don't care about certificates. If I get one after my 2nd Pfizer shot on October 3, that'll be good. I will continue to wear two face masks every time I leave my home and wash my hands about 20 times per day. This will protect me from catching covid.

Luckily, the Thai Public Health ministry has decided to give two free Pfizer shots to all the kids 12 years up who need to attend on-site classes starting November 15. VERY GOOD! For once I applaud the Thai government. Because kids might don't die from covid, but once infected with covid, can pass it on within their immediate family. I'm approaching 76 and have diabetes since over 20 years. The two Pfizer shots should protect me from ending up in an ICU. And all the protection I just mentioned, might save my life. I'm not done yet, I still have much I would like to do.

Bottom line, Charlie: everybody needs two shots, young and old, and continue like before social distancing, wearing face mask(s), better two than one, and washing hands all the time, all the time.

In my native Switzerland, people are fed up wearing facemasks, they are like little kids who want to do what they thinik is best for them. They are organizing huge protests same like in Thailand, with the difference, that they don't want to be vaccinated. B***sh**! 

Good Luck, Charlie!

Edited September 20, 2021 by Dario

[Scott]

Trolling meme removed.  It's a discussion forum.  Continue and face a suspension.

 

[JetsetBkk]

On 9/19/2021 at 10:43 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

A picture tells a thousand words.

 

No defense is perfect, but layers of defense can be extremely effective:

 

 

I do all of those things.

 

Except the last one.

 

[JetsetBkk]

On 9/20/2021 at 2:58 PM, Dario said:

Still, we need to be all vaccinated

No. Those that have already recovered don't.

[JetsetBkk]

 

On 9/19/2021 at 5:09 PM, CharlieH said:

What am I missing ?  As this makes no logical sense to me to insist on something for public safety that actually has no impact on others.

Nothing at all. 

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Nothing at all. 

 

Hospitals overwhelmed by COVID are turning to ‘crisis standards of care.’ What does that mean?

 

Long-feared rationing of medical care has become a reality in some parts of the United States as the delta variant drives a new wave of coronavirus cases, pushing hospitals to the brink.

Idaho last week activated statewide crisis standards of care, in which health systems can prioritize patients for scarce resources — based largely on their likelihood of survival — and even deny treatment. The decisions affect COVID and non-COVID patients.

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2021/09/22/hospitals-overwhelmed-by-covid-are-turning-to-crisis-standards-of-care-what-does-that-mean/

 

Alabama heart patient dies after hospital contacts 43 ICUs in 3 states, family says

“He would not want any other family to go through what his did,” his family said.

An Alabama antiques dealer died this month of a "cardiac event" after the emergency staff at his local hospital contacted dozens of intensive care units in three states and was unable to find him a bed as Covid-19 cases surged, his family said.

The man, Ray DeMonia, who ran DeMonia's Antiques and Auctions for four decades, died Sept. 1, three days before his 74th birthday, his family said in an obituary published this month.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alabama-heart-patient-dies-after-hospital-contacts-43-icus-3-n1279025

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-near-you.html?.?mc=aud_dev&ad-keywords=auddevgate&gclid=CjwKCAjwy7CKBhBMEiwA0Eb7aiv9KbAd2vAJh2-vzetF4KuAQ3VtVLEghFww0UOnfsPmro9DnwSwWxoC4A0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

No. Those that have already recovered don't.

why? do you imagine that they are immune? or won't die if they become infected a second time?

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

Exactly! Except, there is plenty of evidence that the vaccine actually DOES stop you from becoming seriously ill, i.e. "blunting the disease", as said by Dr. Byram Bridle, associate Professor of Viral Immunology at the University of Ghelph. Unfortunately, the vaccine does not kill the virus:

 

 

 

 

 

Is this the same Byram Bridle who claimed this piece of nonsense? The quote is from him. 

Spike protein produced by vaccine not toxic

“We made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now, we thought the spike protein was a great target antigen. We never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein so by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin,” he says.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-377989296609