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Crime Unt Punishment I:

Death Penalty? 27 members have voted

  1. 1. Death Penalty

    • Yes
      32%
      8
    • No
      56%
      14
    • Not Sure
      12%
      3

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Featured Replies

This leads into another great debate, punishment vs. reform, which do you support more?

Now there is a dandy little can of worms.

I think that you would need to separate the different types of crime first.

Acts of desperation, the need for money, retribution, the urge to beat the living daylights out of some <deleted> that really needs it (c'mon, be honest, we have all had that one to one degree or another)

Can that person be reformed? ....... yes they probably can IMO.

Premeditated violent crimes i.e. planning and committing a murder.

Can that person be reformed ...... yes they probably can IMO. They are usually just going for one person for one reason, as long as they don't show a taste for it over the punishment, it is usually a one off.

Serial killers, pedophiles etc

Can that person be reformed? ...... probably not IMO, that is caused by mental instability, you may be able to put a thin veneer over it, but the root cause will always be there.

//edit/I like to edit

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Sadly prisons that mix minor offenders with hard core inmates become Universities of crime.

Recidivism is reality.

Punish those deserve it with no mercy. Identify those that can be reformed and segregate them from the crap to give them a chance.

Make no differentiation between white collar and blue collar crimes. Why should the guy who robbed a pension fund of millions get it easy while a guy who stole a TV lives in hel_l for three years?

  • Author
Make no differentiation between white collar and blue collar crimes. Why should the guy who robbed a pension fund of millions get it easy while a guy who stole a TV lives in hel_l for three years?

Ah, thank you! I was wondering if someone would bring this up. White collar crime, everyone thinks that it harms less and thus people put it into a lesser slot of crime. The guy who takes a purse or holds up a store robs one, the white collar guys robs 100s, 1000s, even more sometimes. How do you punish such a person? No violence was done, yet so much damage to so many families at one time, like nuclear theft.

Cesare Beccaria (1738-1794) said that the punishment should be proportionate to the crime in his book On Crimes & Punishments. That sounds great, right? But, doesn't that mean if you rape than you get rapped? So, how do we decide humane and proportionate punishments?

  • Author
This leads into another great debate, punishment vs. reform, which do you support more?

Now there is a dandy little can of worms.

I think that you would need to separate the different types of crime first.

Acts of desperation, the need for money, retribution, the urge to beat the living daylights out of some <deleted> that really needs it (c'mon, be honest, we have all had that one to one degree or another)

Can that person be reformed? ....... yes they probably can IMO.

Premeditated violent crimes i.e. planning and committing a murder.

Can that person be reformed ...... yes they probably can IMO. They are usually just going for one person for one reason, as long as they don't show a taste for it over the punishment, it is usually a one off.

Serial killers, pedophiles etc

Can that person be reformed? ...... probably not IMO, that is caused by mental instability, you may be able to put a thin veneer over it, but the root cause will always be there.

//edit/I like to edit

How would you divide them up?

I voted not sure, but what I really mean is, no, but yes, but no :o

I do agree with it, but only in circumstances where evidence is irrefutable.

I agree. The death penalty should only be handed out as a final punishment not as an arbitrary sentence. I have supported the death penalty for people convicted of major crimes against people and state. It is a highly emotive topic but I think it is one that any society must form a ruling whether to have it or not. I just do not support the case of "death irrespective of circumstance". The extrajudicial punishment of death by police and soldiers here in Thailand has never really been documented but is something that needs to be investigated.

I think the death penalty was revoked in the UK because of miscarriages of justice,

and in the US and South Africa there are questions over the use of the death penalty also beacuse of miscarriages of justice.

The Christie murders is the case to what you are referring.

I think for psychopathic repeat offenders, murderers, war criminals, sex offenders and serial rapists the death penalty would be a justifiable solution.

Why try to rehabilitate them or spend money locking them up for the rest of their lives, when they have caused such misery to others and serve no purpose to society. For many of the above types jail is not a deterrent, perhaps the loss of their life may make them consider their actions.

I personally don't think the death penalty is a deterrent simply because most people do not consider the possibility of being caught. I was in Texas when they were talking about the death penalty being automatically used on people who killed a police officer or similar. My concern was that anyone who killed by accident or intent an officer of the law was then going to go out in a blaze of glory in a shoot out with other police intent on getting revenge.

I do think that the penalty should be used for serious crimes of violence and used as the ultimate penalty but not as a form of judicial revenge.

CB

It's better for 100 guilty men to walk free than for 1 innocent be put to death.

Surely you can't mean that Thaddeus, it's not right for one innocent to be sentenced to death, but for a hundred guilty to walk free?

I think if a persons guilt can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt then the death sentence is not only justified, but would also be an effective deterrent.

Agree with Thaddy on this. "Beyond reasonable doubt" isn't good enough for the death penalty, IMO. "With absolute certainty" is the minimum, and who can say that? As Mossfin said, there are always risks of corruption in the police force (of whatever country). Life imprisonment, no parole & no nice facilities.

Thaibebop - I don't know how you pay for it. Sorry. Doesn't the US have private prisons run as businesses, now? What's their track records like re security, profitability etc? Maybe that's the way to go.

Corporate prisons..... :o .....oh that makes my skin crawl double time!! I am not sure if we do, I wouldn't be surprised though. I am sure some Americans view the jobs like that, LOL!

Google "Wackenhut Prisons" or "premier uk prisons"

I believe in capital punishment - a little along the lines of an eye for an eye.....

I also believe that who ever the crime was afflicted against (in the case of a dead person -their family) should have the responsability of carrying out the punishment - or at least they should have a say in the matter....

I believe that the burdon of proof falls upon soceity.....

Soundman.

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

I hope your parents read this.

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

I think the option should at least be open, regardless of what the hippies and the bureaucrats say.

  • Author
I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

I think the option should at least be open, regardless of what the hippies and the bureaucrats say.

Yes! Let me say it again....YES!!!

This all starts with childhood, all of it. The kids who were taught discipline, right from wrong and were rewarded and punished according to a ethical code had better chances of growing up productive members of society.

  • Author
I voted not sure, but what I really mean is, no, but yes, but no :o

I do agree with it, but only in circumstances where evidence is irrefutable.

I agree. The death penalty should only be handed out as a final punishment not as an arbitrary sentence. I have supported the death penalty for people convicted of major crimes against people and state. It is a highly emotive topic but I think it is one that any society must form a ruling whether to have it or not. I just do not support the case of "death irrespective of circumstance". The extrajudicial punishment of death by police and soldiers here in Thailand has never really been documented but is something that needs to be investigated.

I think the death penalty was revoked in the UK because of miscarriages of justice,

and in the US and South Africa there are questions over the use of the death penalty also beacuse of miscarriages of justice.

The Christie murders is the case to what you are referring.

I think for psychopathic repeat offenders, murderers, war criminals, sex offenders and serial rapists the death penalty would be a justifiable solution.

Why try to rehabilitate them or spend money locking them up for the rest of their lives, when they have caused such misery to others and serve no purpose to society. For many of the above types jail is not a deterrent, perhaps the loss of their life may make them consider their actions.

I personally don't think the death penalty is a deterrent simply because most people do not consider the possibility of being caught. I was in Texas when they were talking about the death penalty being automatically used on people who killed a police officer or similar. My concern was that anyone who killed by accident or intent an officer of the law was then going to go out in a blaze of glory in a shoot out with other police intent on getting revenge.

I do think that the penalty should be used for serious crimes of violence and used as the ultimate penalty but not as a form of judicial revenge.

CB

I agree with you Crow. Here in my city a few weeks back a man wanted to go out in a blaze of glory and shot it up with police in a mall parking lot, the police had to gun him down. If more criminals took on a no hope view in these positions more and more would end up in shoot outs with police and that means civialian deaths as well as police. Not a good idea, they must be given the view that surrender is an opinion.

  • Author
It's better for 100 guilty men to walk free than for 1 innocent be put to death.

Surely you can't mean that Thaddeus, it's not right for one innocent to be sentenced to death, but for a hundred guilty to walk free?

I think if a persons guilt can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt then the death sentence is not only justified, but would also be an effective deterrent.

Agree with Thaddy on this. "Beyond reasonable doubt" isn't good enough for the death penalty, IMO. "With absolute certainty" is the minimum, and who can say that? As Mossfin said, there are always risks of corruption in the police force (of whatever country). Life imprisonment, no parole & no nice facilities.

Thaibebop - I don't know how you pay for it. Sorry. Doesn't the US have private prisons run as businesses, now? What's their track records like re security, profitability etc? Maybe that's the way to go.

Corporate prisons..... :o .....oh that makes my skin crawl double time!! I am not sure if we do, I wouldn't be surprised though. I am sure some Americans view the jobs like that, LOL!

Google "Wackenhut Prisons" or "premier uk prisons"

Okay, that was kind of strange. I mean it seems like a good idea but there is something wrong with this. Such things should never be allowed in to the private sector.

I'd rather that profit margins did not depend on enough people being found guilty. :o

  • Author
I'd rather that profit margins did not depend on enough people being found guilty. :o

Right! I was trying to find the dark angle to this and that is it. These companies would want more people in jail. What would ( maybe already is ) happen if they lined the pockets of lawyers to get convictions. That means a lot more people in there for a lot longer and tax payers shelling out for it. Bad news man, bad news!!

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

:D Canadian kids can call the cops on their parents if they are spanked or otherwise physically remonstrated with, even in the confines of their own home (huh, sounds like the kiddies in Mao's cultural revolution turning in their folks for keeping an old poetry book or a porcelain vase).

I remember seeing a chick trying to reason with her two-yr-old who was having a veritable tantrum on the floor of the public library. Crikes, the kid can't even talk let alone know what <deleted> reason is. Pick up screaming child, whack on the backside and drag him home. Nooo, let everyone else suffer for one bratty kid. I guess I should start a new campaign for a law that bans toddlers from throwing tantrums on public walkways, because they might die from an infectious disease, or my toe hitting their behinds.

  • Author
I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

:D Canadian kids can call the cops on their parents if they are spanked or otherwise physically remonstrated with, even in the confines of their own home (huh, sounds like the kiddies in Mao's cultural revolution turning in their folks for keeping an old poetry book or a porcelain vase).

I remember seeing a chick trying to reason with her two-yr-old who was having a veritable tantrum on the floor of the public library. Crikes, the kid can't even talk let alone know what <deleted> reason is. Pick up screaming child, whack on the backside and drag him home. Nooo, let everyone else suffer for one bratty kid. I guess I should start a new campaign for a law that bans toddlers from throwing tantrums on public walkways, because they might die from an infectious disease, or my toe hitting their behinds.

That might work......I am not joking either. :D

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

Just skip a few posts to comment on this. (I agree with everything in-between though)

When I was a small boy (still am in many ways) I was never spanked, but the threat was always there.

In my school years, I was never on the receiving end of the cane, blackboard duster or training shoe, but the threat was always there.

Outside of school we had one Plod in our village (his name was Bill, good name for a copper) and he would drag you by the ears for a good lecture when it was required.

The PC brigade have really screwed up, these days in the UK a teacher can't even wag their finger at a student without being reprimanded and that is so very wrong. Ok, it isn't going to fix the seriously maladjusted, but it would sort out the little thugs that I used to see hanging around on the street corners, terrorising grannies and generaly being a pain (and then they grow into what?)

When I first moved here, my little step-daughter had a very destructive side and would throw tantrums at regular intervals. I talked to the wife about discipline and she told me that was 'job for teacher'..... to which I said '<deleted>' and spanked her the next time she had a hissy fit .... hasn't happened since, it stopped over night..... and I still get hugs every morning and every night.

I know this is going slightly off tangent, but I do think it is relevant. The lack of discipline I see with the kids in Thailand would go some way to explain the amount of lawlessness I see when they grow up, there is no thought of punishment because they have never received any earlier in their life.

I don't know if your comment was tongue in cheek Kayo, but I do subscribe to it, a red bottom hurts for a few minutes for one individual, but it can remove years of pain for many more.

I detest the PC Brigade..... take them outside and shoot them.

  • Author
I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

Just skip a few posts to comment on this. (I agree with everything in-between though)

When I was a small boy (still am in many ways) I was never spanked, but the threat was always there.

In my school years, I was never on the receiving end of the cane, blackboard duster or training shoe, but the threat was always there.

Outside of school we had one Plod in our village (his name was Bill, good name for a copper) and he would drag you by the ears for a good lecture when it was required.

The PC brigade have really screwed up, these days in the UK a teacher can't even wag their finger at a student without being reprimanded and that is so very wrong. Ok, it isn't going to fix the seriously maladjusted, but it would sort out the little thugs that I used to see hanging around on the street corners, terrorising grannies and generaly being a pain (and then they grow into what?)

When I first moved here, my little step-daughter had a very destructive side and would throw tantrums at regular intervals. I talked to the wife about discipline and she told me that was 'job for teacher'..... to which I said '<deleted>' and spanked her the next time she had a hissy fit .... hasn't happened since, it stopped over night..... and I still get hugs every morning and every night.

I know this is going slightly off tangent, but I do think it is relevant. The lack of discipline I see with the kids in Thailand would go some way to explain the amount of lawlessness I see when they grow up, there is no thought of punishment because they have never received any earlier in their life.

I don't know if your comment was tongue in cheek Kayo, but I do subscribe to it, a red bottom hurts for a few minutes for one individual, but it can remove years of pain for many more.

I detest the PC Brigade..... take them outside and shoot them.

Or a really solid spanking! Maybe if they get some they won't think it's so bad, eh?

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

:D Canadian kids can call the cops on their parents if they are spanked or otherwise physically remonstrated with, even in the confines of their own home

Unless its proven to be abusive, their complaint gets nowhere. It's not a crime to spank your kids in Canada.

Ever here Russell Peters' (comic from Ontario) routine about disciplining kids? Hilarious. :D

Sorry for those in Thailand who can't see this:

  • Author
I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Yeah.

:o

:D Canadian kids can call the cops on their parents if they are spanked or otherwise physically remonstrated with, even in the confines of their own home

Unless its proven to be abusive, their complaint gets nowhere. It's not a crime to spank your kids in Canada.

Ever here Russell Peters' (comic from Ontario) routine about disciplining kids? Hilarious. :D

Sorry for those in Thailand who can't see this:

He is so funny!!! I have seen him before and loved every bit of his act! LOL!!!

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Kayo I am assuming or at least hoping you are joking here. Discipline by parents is a good thing and gives children boundaries, but as someone who lived and survived a father who systematically beat the living bejesus out of my two brothers and myself because of his own personaliy disorders I don't agree with parents spanking or beating any child.

sorry

CB

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Kayo I am assuming or at least hoping you are joking here. Discipline by parents is a good thing and gives children boundaries, but as someone who lived and survived a father who systematically beat the living bejesus out of my two brothers and myself because of his own personaliy disorders I don't agree with parents spanking or beating any child.

sorry

CB

There's a difference between a smack that is used in extreme cases and beating the bejesus out of a kid. Better to have a kid with a memory of a smack for running out into the street than a kid who's feelings were never hurt winding up impacted into the grill of a Holden.

I think everyone should get spanked more by their parents.

Knock some shape into the kids.

Kayo I am assuming or at least hoping you are joking here. Discipline by parents is a good thing and gives children boundaries, but as someone who lived and survived a father who systematically beat the living bejesus out of my two brothers and myself because of his own personaliy disorders I don't agree with parents spanking or beating any child.

sorry

CB

There's a difference between a smack that is used in extreme cases and beating the bejesus out of a kid. Better to have a kid with a memory of a smack for running out into the street than a kid who's feelings were never hurt winding up impacted into the grill of a Holden.

I agree with your point but there also a difference between giving a kid a smack for being noisy and twisting his arm until it has a spiral greenstick fracture because his dad has a hangover.

CB

I voted no, and that will always be my vote.....have had this debate in various settings...including a formal discussion with people that work in Human Rights. what I learnt from these discussions is, the death penalty is one of those things where people's opinions will not change easily (unless they become the victims themselves...either victims of crime committed by others, or as would be victims of the death penalty).

anyhow.....I think someone mentioned that the death penalty could be a deterrent for committing crime....I have to say evidence points otherwise. think about the number of countries in SEA region that impose death penalty for drug trafficking....yet drug smuggling is rampant. the mentality of the people that commit these crime is that they will not be caught, so no matter how extreme the punishment is...it will not stop them from committing those crimes...cause they think it will never be applied to them.

and to those that argue the cost of imprisonment is too much on the state, I would say it is no more than paying people for unemployment benefits, and often prisoners are made to work....so somehow offset the cost that is spent on the prison and rehabilitation system.

but yes like NR...I wouldnt want them out and about on the street again either.

To tongue in cheek, or Not to tongue in cheek, that is the question!!

When I posted it, it was tongue in cheek.

But frankly, I had the best of both worlds. My dad went alternately from being a short tempered but fair man, to (during my early teengae years) being quite the intolerant drunk,

so at times I got a disciplinary smack, usually followed by an explanation - this I would learn from.

And at other times, I'd have to get my mother or sister to drive me to the nearest hospital to have various body parts fixed - and from this I probably never will recover.

Ultimately, though, yeah, I think parents should be able to discipline their children fairly. The responsability is at home/ Not the state, not the teachers (as much).

And due to all the "political correctness" we are seeing a serious downturn in the state of kids today.

Note, "Political Correctness" could be read as "Stalinistic Nanny State"

  • Author

There is a clear line between a spanking and a beating, I this all too well myself. So, discipline tempered with mercy for children, yes. Criminals, I am not so sure, yet.

There is a clear line between a spanking and a beating,

Sadly this line can be obscured if emotions are high.....that is why if a parent chooses to use spanking in raising a child then the best rule to have is "NEVER SPANK YOUR CHILD IF YOU ARE ANGRY....NEVER...NEVER...NEVER." Not even if you are a little bit angry. Best to be totally calm and focused on your love for your child while administering a spanking.

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