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Crime Unt Punishment I:

Death Penalty? 27 members have voted

  1. 1. Death Penalty

    • Yes
      32%
      8
    • No
      56%
      14
    • Not Sure
      12%
      3

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

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  • Author
There is a clear line between a spanking and a beating,

Sadly this line can be obscured if emotions are high.....that is why if a parent chooses to use spanking in raising a child then the best rule to have is "NEVER SPANK YOUR CHILD IF YOU ARE ANGRY....NEVER...NEVER...NEVER." Not even if you are a little bit angry. Best to be totally calm and focused on your love for your child while administering a spanking.

Very good advice Chownah, thanks.

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  • Author

Okay, let me run this by you cats.

A few days ago a 18 year old girl was kidnapped in a parking lot at 7:30 PM. This is in my city by the way. Later her car showed up across the street and now her body was found. Yes, she is dead and yes she was raped, both ways. 18 yrs and ten days ago graduated from high school, now nothing, just because she made a trip to Target.

I know emotions can run high sometimes and I like to think of myself as a person who could be fair and merciful, but when crimes like this happen I find myself thinking that rotting in a cell is just too soft for someone who has such disregard for human life and I would think an enjoyment at taking life and hurting people. Shouldn't this person say a little something more? Not death, no that is a way out. Something else,perhaps?

Okay, let me run this by you cats.

A few days ago a 18 year old girl was kidnapped in a parking lot at 7:30 PM. This is in my city by the way. Later her car showed up across the street and now her body was found. Yes, she is dead and yes she was raped, both ways. 18 yrs and ten days ago graduated from high school, now nothing, just because she made a trip to Target.

I know emotions can run high sometimes and I like to think of myself as a person who could be fair and merciful, but when crimes like this happen I find myself thinking that rotting in a cell is just too soft for someone who has such disregard for human life and I would think an enjoyment at taking life and hurting people. Shouldn't this person say a little something more? Not death, no that is a way out. Something else,perhaps?

Sure, Bebop. 20 years in the BKK Hilton.

Okay, let me run this by you cats.

A few days ago a 18 year old girl was kidnapped in a parking lot at 7:30 PM. This is in my city by the way. Later her car showed up across the street and now her body was found. Yes, she is dead and yes she was raped, both ways. 18 yrs and ten days ago graduated from high school, now nothing, just because she made a trip to Target.

I know emotions can run high sometimes and I like to think of myself as a person who could be fair and merciful, but when crimes like this happen I find myself thinking that rotting in a cell is just too soft for someone who has such disregard for human life and I would think an enjoyment at taking life and hurting people. Shouldn't this person say a little something more? Not death, no that is a way out. Something else,perhaps?

Exposure?

The person(s) who carried out this ugly attack should be exposed to their peers. Perhaps made to stand infront of a very large crowd and tell what they did, answer any question their peers have. Let's see if that doesn't either a) get some emotional reaction out of them - that they may realise what they've done is terribly wrong, or :o crowd goes wild and lynches the fukcer(s)

Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :o

  • Author
Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :o

I share this news not so much as a means to say we should or shouldn't support the death penalty, but to ask what should you do to punish such a person and still maintain our standard of moral treatment, yet still punish with equality of the crime.

Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :o

I share this news not so much as a means to say we should or shouldn't support the death penalty, but to ask what should you do to punish such a person and still maintain our standard of moral treatment, yet still punish with equality of the crime.

Sorry Bop, and don't take this the wrong way, as a group we are not a star council, we are just a couple of dozen ex-pats with opinions on whatever subject arises.

Some subjects do not have a black and white answer, I think you just found one.

Just to reference the post from Tip, I don't fully understand myself, I make decisions based on gut feelings sometimes, I'm a rational human being but I suffer from occasional irrational behaviour. While I still suffer from that condition, I don't think that I am qualified to sit in judgement over another.

Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :o

I share this news not so much as a means to say we should or shouldn't support the death penalty, but to ask what should you do to punish such a person and still maintain our standard of moral treatment, yet still punish with equality of the crime.

In my view, punishing people like the perpetrator of this crime is simple. Don't segregate them, mix them with the general prison population & let them take their chances. That goes for all sex offenders; rapists, rape-murderers, paedophiles, whatever. They shouldn't be protected by the prison system. Eventually, they would probably be killed by the other prisoners (so that takes care of your taxpayers footing the bill, Bebop). Too harsh? I don't really think so.

  • Author
Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :D

I share this news not so much as a means to say we should or shouldn't support the death penalty, but to ask what should you do to punish such a person and still maintain our standard of moral treatment, yet still punish with equality of the crime.

Sorry Bop, and don't take this the wrong way, as a group we are not a star council, we are just a couple of dozen ex-pats with opinions on whatever subject arises.

Some subjects do not have a black and white answer, I think you just found one.

Just to reference the post from Tip, I don't fully understand myself, I make decisions based on gut feelings sometimes, I'm a rational human being but I suffer from occasional irrational behaviour. While I still suffer from that condition, I don't think that I am qualified to sit in judgement over another.

Ah, yes, the Human element behavioral science fears, chaos. :o

Until people begin to have at least a glimmering of understanding of who they are, why they find themselves in this world in the first place, and what this world is about I don't think an answer regarding capital punishment can ever truly be understood. Just my opinion. :D
I share this news not so much as a means to say we should or shouldn't support the death penalty, but to ask what should you do to punish such a person and still maintain our standard of moral treatment, yet still punish with equality of the crime.

I'd expand my answer above, Bops, to include an answer to punishment as well. Before the question of punishment can be answered I think the question, "What is love?" must be answered. I think that's a question that, if pursued with great intention, will take you very, very far down the rabbit hole. You can return but you will be forever changed.

Sorry Bop, and don't take this the wrong way, as a group we are not a star council, we are just a couple of dozen ex-pats with opinions on whatever subject arises.

Some subjects do not have a black and white answer, I think you just found one.

Just to reference the post from Tip, I don't fully understand myself, I make decisions based on gut feelings sometimes, I'm a rational human being but I suffer from occasional irrational behaviour. While I still suffer from that condition, I don't think that I am qualified to sit in judgement over another.

A most excellent response, Thaddy, and I think you bring up quite a few very valid points. For one, there is no "star council." Your humble opinion on a given subject may ring truer than that of a panel of the world's greatest so-called "experts." Do not underestimate your ability to reach your own valid conclusions on any topic; and be careful to not forego this responsibility in favour of mindlessly adopting the opinions of others.

I wouldn't say you (or anyone else) suffer from irrational behaviour - all behaviour has rationale, whether or not it is perceived or understood. Behaviour is, I think, equally emotionally based. It is emotions, and their source, that I believe are so little understood. Our emotions so often "carry" us away - and many times to places we would rather not choose to go if we were to remain the master of them. E.g., in the heat of an argument, with emotions completely unchecked, you will be apt to respond much differently than you would while "cool, calm and collected;" a state in which you allow a greater range of thoughts to enter into play.

Regarding judgement over others (or even ourselves), is this our true position and responsibility to do so? Or does it merely appear to be so? Can anyone see the inherent problems that arise whenever we assume this misplaced burden? When we judge another do we not forget our own "weaknesses" and perhaps falsely presume that we are so much better? Do we forget that we each have our own challenges in life and easily, absentmindedly, forget that others have theirs as well, which often differ from our own?

You give a very honest assessment of yourself there, Thaddy, in recognizing your qualifications to judge. :o You'll never see me as the axesman as well. I'll leave that task to those who so willingly and righteously chose it for themselves.

Am I being longwinded again????? :D

Okay, let me run this by you cats.

A few days ago a 18 year old girl was kidnapped in a parking lot at 7:30 PM. This is in my city by the way. Later her car showed up across the street and now her body was found. Yes, she is dead and yes she was raped, both ways. 18 yrs and ten days ago graduated from high school, now nothing, just because she made a trip to Target.

I know emotions can run high sometimes and I like to think of myself as a person who could be fair and merciful, but when crimes like this happen I find myself thinking that rotting in a cell is just too soft for someone who has such disregard for human life and I would think an enjoyment at taking life and hurting people. Shouldn't this person say a little something more? Not death, no that is a way out. Something else,perhaps?

Same thing happened (at the same age) to my next door neighbours grand daughter who I basically grew up with. He's behind bars in Dartmoor Prison, got caught in a region wide hunt for him where they dna tested every male who volunteered or got arrested between 16-30.

Even though I know he is in the big house for what he did, its doesn't replace the fact that he killed a young, bright beautiful girl with everything to live for, for nothing but his own sick and twisted pleasure.

Its been more than 10 years, and just thinking about him makes my insides burn with anger for what he did. After 10 years the guy will have adjusted to his no doubt unpleasant surroundings, where as my old friend is still dead by his hand.

So does he deserve to die?

Yes. But its difficult, I truly would like to forgive I can see the academic qualities of it, but in my heart I know I can't, it would be a betrayal.

  • Author
Okay, let me run this by you cats.

A few days ago a 18 year old girl was kidnapped in a parking lot at 7:30 PM. This is in my city by the way. Later her car showed up across the street and now her body was found. Yes, she is dead and yes she was raped, both ways. 18 yrs and ten days ago graduated from high school, now nothing, just because she made a trip to Target.

I know emotions can run high sometimes and I like to think of myself as a person who could be fair and merciful, but when crimes like this happen I find myself thinking that rotting in a cell is just too soft for someone who has such disregard for human life and I would think an enjoyment at taking life and hurting people. Shouldn't this person say a little something more? Not death, no that is a way out. Something else,perhaps?

Same thing happened (at the same age) to my next door neighbours grand daughter who I basically grew up with. He's behind bars in Dartmoor Prison, got caught in a region wide hunt for him where they dna tested every male who volunteered or got arrested between 16-30.

Even though I know he is in the big house for what he did, its doesn't replace the fact that he killed a young, bright beautiful girl with everything to live for, for nothing but his own sick and twisted pleasure.

Its been more than 10 years, and just thinking about him makes my insides burn with anger for what he did. After 10 years the guy will have adjusted to his no doubt unpleasant surroundings, where as my old friend is still dead by his hand.

So does he deserve to die?

Yes. But its difficult, I truly would like to forgive I can see the academic qualities of it, but in my heart I know I can't, it would be a betrayal.

I have never had a personnal connection with any victims of such violence, so I can only go so far in my mind. Still, the frustration I can guess at. Sorry, man, really I am. As much as I think I could be someone to let the law handle things and dedicate my life to living for the dead, for their memory and in case they are watching, I would still want to deal with the SOB myself. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I had not avenged my loved one.

I used to support the Death Penalty but now I think, like November Rain said, that life imprisonment means life imprisonment. For serious crimes the prison conditions should reflect the crime also. The use of Solitary confinement should be mandatory for the first year of the sentence, it won't cause physical harm but it will make damned sure they don't want to offend again if they are getting the silent dungeon treatment!

Thats some Euro countries, society has gone so soft that criminals just treat prison as a break from the outside world. If they realised 'Sht! Prison is a bad and lonely place and I don't want to go there!' Then there would be less offenses. This is something that Thailand excels at, speaking to an ex-con (thai) who got busted for drug offenses he told me that he was terrified in prison or 'The monkey house' as they like to call it.

Contrast this to the ludicrous Norweigan jails, they are so laid back and informal that its a holiday home for criminals! Even class A drug dealers can choose when they can 'turn up for jail time!'

:o

I wouldn't say you (or anyone else) suffer from irrational behaviour - all behaviour has rationale, whether or not it is perceived or understood. Behaviour is, I think, equally emotionally based. It is emotions, and their source, that I believe are so little understood.

Tip, I am going to share a little story with you (and anyone else that cares to read) it's a little off topic but it still has a little relevance to the general subject matter. I don't normally share this sort of information, but what the heck, I've had a couple of beers and it may be quite cathartic.

I am quite small in stature, my junior school days were a living hel_l, I was bullied mercilessly and I mean mercilessly. My school didn't have a single 11+ pass in over ten years (only English people may get that) I studied and I passed and got a place at a Grammar School, everyone else went to a Secondary Modern.

First day in the new school and the typical bully saw me and made his move.

The red mist came down.

The only thought in my head was "I am not taking another seven years of this shit"

I put him in hospital.

Never had another fight, didn't need to.... any up and coming young bully was told "don't even go there" when they joined the school and caught a glimpse of me.

I have no problem understanding that behaviour, because it's me, it was my life, nobody else walked in my shoes..... if I had killed said bully instead of just breaking a few ribs (and one leg) who would have understood the entire situation....... nobody.

That's why I made that comment yesterday.

I'm qualified to judge me, but not others........ anyone who thinks they can are only fooling themselves.... anyone who voluntarily submits themselves for that task should be the last people chosen to do that job.

wathced this in a repeat of an episode of star trek voyager earlier:

Man accused of a brutal murder.

Punishment:

The last memories of the murdered man are transplanted to the killer's mind, and every 7 hours or so he is forced to relive the murder HE commited, but through the eyes ( and feelings) of the murdered man.

That is his sentence after trial.

What do you think Bops?

  • Author
wathced this in a repeat of an episode of star trek voyager earlier:

Man accused of a brutal murder.

Punishment:

The last memories of the murdered man are transplanted to the killer's mind, and every 7 hours or so he is forced to relive the murder HE commited, but through the eyes ( and feelings) of the murdered man.

That is his sentence after trial.

What do you think Bops?

This is why I love sci-fi, what ideas they give us, robotic sex slaves and this. :o

All joking aside, I love it.

I have no problem understanding that behaviour, because it's me, it was my life, nobody else walked in my shoes..... if I had killed said bully instead of just breaking a few ribs (and one leg) who would have understood the entire situation....... nobody.

That's why I made that comment yesterday.

I'm qualified to judge me, but not others........ anyone who thinks they can are only fooling themselves.... anyone who voluntarily submits themselves for that task should be the last people chosen to do that job.

Actually, I think it's a great experience to share, Thaddy. Thanks, I enjoyed it. :D

You make another excellent point; no one can walk in your shoes. As close as anyone can be to you - your spouse, your best friend, and even members of your immediate family - not one of them will ever come close to understanding you as well as you understand yourself. And strange as it may seem, we don't nearly understand ourselves as much as we think we might. In light of that fact alone, who could possibly ever claim to know us enough to sit before us as our judge and jury?

It's my belief, and it's a belief that is most likely shared by very few, that we were not given the responsibility to judge others. Not even ourselves. Judging ourselves can be, and all too often is, a practice that can be irreparably damaging to our lives and would unjustly rob us of happiness that would otherwise be ours. Assessing ourselves and others, most certainly. That, I believe, is our responsibility and one that we should not ignore. But there is a very distinct difference between an assessment and a judgement. If I would mention only a single difference, emotions are not given the freedom to run rampant with us.

Good stuff, Thaddy! :o

I think that the custom in the US is that if it is not beyond a reasonable doubt then they are declared INNOCENT and they let them go free and not lock them up at all.

I think that it is the custom in the US that if you can not afford a good lawyer you are probably guilty. If you can you are probably innocent. Anybody remember O J Simpson ? I am not picking on the US here , this is probably true in many jurisdictions.

I did read , a while ago , of a group of US lawyers who were reopening cases where people had been imprisoned for crimes such as rape/murder (and some were on death row) and modern DNA technology was able to prove their innocence.

I voted "not sure".

On the one hand capital punishment renders it hard to correct an error of justice.

On the other hand life imprisonment , in most jurisdictions , is a fate worse than death.

I saw a piece on the BBC where Italian lifers are petitioning their government to reinstate the death penalty because they did not consider their existence bearable.

In parting I note the "life imprisonment is too good for them" brigade. Some of them (in this and similar threads) can be quite vehement. I sometimes wonder if they are sick f*cks who have not yet committed a crime.

Actually, it's a couple of OJ's lawyers that started that campaign, with great and disturbing success:

http://www.observer.com/node/48892

I can't support the death penalty, but I wouldn't mind if prisons for long term convicts were on remote desert islands.

Some, just can't let it go:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1105/p02s02-usju.html

These kinds of stories really test my belief that capital punishment is fundamentally wrong:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1351393

These kinds of stories really test my belief that capital punishment is fundamentally wrong:

I don't need my beliefs testing, It's wrong.

  • Author

Since so many here do not support capital punishment we can't let this thread die. :o

Okay, I think the people who should be sent to prison are those capable of being reformed. These are the people who should have money spent to help them see the errors of their ways and to be given skills that will help them on the outside. These are the folks who should be given the second change when on the outside. These are the people who compassion should not and will not be wasteed on.

The others are those who cannot be reformed. I believe these individuals should be executed. While I like the idea of making sure the real sick cases get some true punishment, medevil style, I know that would just damage us more. These cases, extreme and rare they will be, will be a burden upon society. They pose a threat if the escape confinemnt and they pose an drain on resources that reformable inmates might benfit from. Unreformable cases are not normal people, Manson right, so they is no point in trying and it's irresponible to allow them a chance to effect society again, they are a true threat.

This case I have listed here is playing out right now in Overland Park, Kansas. Edwin R. Hall killed 18 year old Kelsey Smith just to see her die. His myspace, myface whatever account said he liked killing and torturing small animals and he said it would be fun to eat a small child, this from a father of a four year old boy. This guy is not reformable. Why allow him to drain resources that will be wasted on him? Why allow him the chance to reenter society? I do not suggest torturing him in turn like he did poor Kelsey, just being humane and killing him quickly so that his treat is removed and then more time can be spent repairing the damaged humans that can be fixed.

Since so many here do not support capital punishment we can't let this thread die. :o

Okay, I think the people who should be sent to prison are those capable of being reformed. These are the people who should have money spent to help them see the errors of their ways and to be given skills that will help them on the outside. These are the folks who should be given the second change when on the outside. These are the people who compassion should not and will not be wasteed on.

The others are those who cannot be reformed. I believe these individuals should be executed. While I like the idea of making sure the real sick cases get some true punishment, medevil style, I know that would just damage us more. These cases, extreme and rare they will be, will be a burden upon society. They pose a threat if the escape confinemnt and they pose an drain on resources that reformable inmates might benfit from. Unreformable cases are not normal people, Manson right, so they is no point in trying and it's irresponible to allow them a chance to effect society again, they are a true threat.

This case I have listed here is playing out right now in Overland Park, Kansas. Edwin R. Hall killed 18 year old Kelsey Smith just to see her die. His myspace, myface whatever account said he liked killing and torturing small animals and he said it would be fun to eat a small child, this from a father of a four year old boy. This guy is not reformable. Why allow him to drain resources that will be wasted on him? Why allow him the chance to reenter society? I do not suggest torturing him in turn like he did poor Kelsey, just being humane and killing him quickly so that his treat is removed and then more time can be spent repairing the damaged humans that can be fixed.

It might be interesting to note that "life or death" decisions are made on a regular basis without too much public interest.

Pharmaceutical companies do not seek a remedy for rare fatal diseases because sales of any any successful drug would never reimburse their research and development costs. Hospitals in "pay for treatment" regimes can say sorry no can do if your health insurance or lack of it will not pay for a life-saving organ transplant. Even in a "free health care at point of delivery" regimes such as the UK some treatments will not be offered on economic grounds.

That was not putting an economic value on a human life , it was just throwing a small pebble at the "all human life is sacred" brigade. It is not. It is allowed to expire every day on the basis of cold calculation.

Back to Bopper's post. The cost of incarcerating his "worst case" example for the rest of his unnatural life would probably cover the cost of an organ transplant for an innocent child who would otherwise die.

Anybody care to vote on that one ?

Who should live , who should die ?

News That Death Penalty Foes Won't Want to Hear: A series of studies over the past six years all lead to the conclusion that the death penalty has a deterrent effect.

Source

Boonie, you are the ultimate ultra-conservative. :o Contradictions abound, but what the hey?

"To be a good Republican you have to be against abortion but support capital punishment."

Boonie, you are the ultimate ultra-conservative. :o Contradictions abound, but what the hey?

"To be a good Republican you have to be against abortion but support capital punishment."

In my opinion the difference is simple - one made a choice to commit a crime and the other is an innocent.

CB

News That Death Penalty Foes Won't Want to Hear: A series of studies over the past six years all lead to the conclusion that the death penalty has a deterrent effect.

I am not in any way a supporter of the wholesale use of capital punishment and believe it should only be used in cases of extreme nature but it is a proven fact that no one who has been executed has ever committed another crime.

CB

Here's another report on the aforementioned study:

"Science does really draw a conclusion. It did. There is no question about it," said Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver. "The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect."

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