1 hour ago, Tropposurfer said:

. For the historically uninitiated China has never first-striked anybody not in over 8000 years of known history. 

That's because they have been too busy fighting themselves, or waiting for the US to throw Japan out of their country.

5 hours ago, ramrod711 said:

And the next 11 countries behind China, including Russia

I still cant understand what war people talking here about?

 

US do what exactly? to Russia or China? Attacking a battleship? A port?

Well, nukes are send next second. Then what? Some nukes send right back? Then what? No xmas for u.

 

U need to be a braindead moron to think some wars are possible between nuke countries. Brain. Dead.

 

Some minor conflicts. Some barking in a black sea. Some economic pressure. 

But western world has no power, no solidarity to oppose China, let alone Russia.

 

Budget this, budget that. Who cares? One nuke to Ramstein base or SD naval base and 1/4 th of that budget is gone. 

 

Russia took Crimea and nothing happened. When u have nukes u can do many things. Isnt that so, uncle Sam))

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Ahh .. how the thought of no longer being the preeminent race on the planet unsettles ... For the historically uninitiated China has never first-striked anybody not in over 8000 years of known history.  The current, and rapidly waining world power that to date has presided over us certainly can't claim one iota of a record such as that in its short 400 years history. Quite the opposite to be factually accurate is the case.

Really? The Chinese ruled Vietnam for 1,000 years

 

https://medium.com/@sushisev/the-rich-history-of-vietnam-the-4-periods-of-chinese-domination-16acbf426071

Edited November 28, 20214 yr by ozimoron

5 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

For the historically uninitiated China has never first-striked anybody not in over 8000 years of known history

So what about the strike on Vietnam in 1979?

"Chinese Naval Fleet Arrived in Thailand for Visit"

 

https://www.mfa.gov.cn/ce/ceth//eng/ztbd/t1502276.htm

On 11/28/2021 at 1:29 PM, ramrod711 said:

And the next 11 countries behind China, including Russia

China is not yet capable of using a nuclear MAD deterrent, but in the last few months construction of hundreds of missile silos has been detected. In a few years some predict that China could have 1000 launch-capable missiles. That would be another piece in the strategy for taking Taiwan by force and ensuring that the US and others would stand off as it happened.

On 11/28/2021 at 1:57 PM, sirineou said:

The US population during the civil war was about 18 million people , now at 330 million  it is 18x more . so as a proportion to the population in todays numbers it would be 13,500,000.  

To put these numbers in perspective, if out of 18 million , 750,000 died , means that one out every 24 people was killed. or about 4.2% of the US population. 

Someone pleas check my math, ????

The US Civil War was horrible and Americans are still living with the consequences.

On 11/28/2021 at 2:13 PM, sirineou said:

If that's the case then China wins. 

It's a bit late to be preparing for Chinese aggression on Taiwan. The Obama team was asleep at the switch, and those 8 years have made a huge difference, unfortunately. It should have been clear by 2012 that Xi was out to change the relationship with the world. Perhaps Xi will end up shooting China in the foot. Time will tell.

On 11/28/2021 at 2:31 PM, Kinnock said:

China know's that their armed forces have never won a war, except against their own people, so they will use the same tactics that enabled them to win the Cold War ..... economics.

They have been doing well due to US, EU input in spite of their big errors such as overbuilding and wasteful investment, copying the HK system of financing government through land sales. At this point the economic boost may start to wane, for demographic reasons but also because foreign disinvestment may accelerate due to Xi's over controlling policies and rising costs of production versus other countries.

23 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

Ahh .. how the thought of no longer being the preeminent race on the planet unsettles ... For the historically uninitiated China has never first-striked anybody not in over 8000 years of known history.  The current, and rapidly waining world power that to date has presided over us certainly can't claim one iota of a record such as that in its short 400 years history. Quite the opposite to be factually accurate is the case.

Until the West got China rich, China was not a threat to the world. Well, not exactly. China was the springboard for the Mongol onslaught on Asia and Europe, the source of many pandemics. Now that Xi has money, China is suddenly a bully with ever expanding military hardware.

20 hours ago, boogiewoogie said:

U need to be a braindead moron to think some wars are possible between nuke countries. Brain. Dead.

The world have seen braindead leaders before, so be careful when you say never. CCP might give it a try while they sit it out in their 3,000 miles of tunnels. 

 

In December 2009, just as the students began making progress, the Chinese military admitted for the first time that the Second Artillery had indeed been building a network of tunnels. According to a report by state-run CCTV, China had more than 3,000 miles of tunnels — roughly the distance between Boston and San Francisco — including deep underground bases that could withstand multiple nuclear attacks.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/georgetown-students-shed-light-on-chinas-tunnel-system-for-nuclear-weapons/2011/11/16/gIQA6AmKAO_story.html

20 hours ago, boogiewoogie said:

I still cant understand what war people talking here about?

 

US do what exactly? to Russia or China? Attacking a battleship? A port?

Well, nukes are send next second. Then what? Some nukes send right back? Then what? No xmas for u.

 

U need to be a braindead moron to think some wars are possible between nuke countries. Brain. Dead.

 

Some minor conflicts. Some barking in a black sea. Some economic pressure. 

But western world has no power, no solidarity to oppose China, let alone Russia.

 

Budget this, budget that. Who cares? One nuke to Ramstein base or SD naval base and 1/4 th of that budget is gone. 

 

Russia took Crimea and nothing happened. When u have nukes u can do many things. Isnt that so, uncle Sam))

 

 

 

 

It depends - what is a minor conflict? Actually, Taiwan is much more important than Crimea.

Hey Moonlover, you may, by chance , have noticed I used the word ""unannounced  visit:"  in my original   story..      Scott Morrison confirmed this   by   "announcing""   thought the  visit was    known beforehand, the government chose not  to "announce it""  to the   public..     Got the fact  right now??

19 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Really? The Chinese ruled Vietnam for 1,000 years

 

https://medium.com/@sushisev/the-rich-history-of-vietnam-the-4-periods-of-chinese-domination-16acbf426071

For most of China's 2000+ years, it was incapable of "first strike", but besides it's imperial ambitions in Vietnam, it also gobbled up Xinjiang in the 18th and Taiwan in the 17th Century.

On 11/27/2021 at 3:37 PM, HAPPYNUFF said:

Not so very long ago, three   Chinese  national warships sailed, unannounced , into Sydney Harbour  (thats in Australia for the   geography challenged... )       Australian armed forces promptly responded  by launching a wooden dinghy, armed  with very large sticks  and some stones,, to check on them.............Though I love my country  I despair  at the governments feeble efforst to protect the country.

The arrival, which was not publicly announced by the Australian Government.

 

The general populace wre not notified, however Defence and Naval command were well infoirmed,expecting them, and had docksode services ready, they docked at a Conmmonwealth Base. 

 

That does mean I trust them at all, or their motives.

Belt and Road debts and loans come to mind. FAST RAIL ??

 

 

 

7 hours ago, placnx said:

Until the West got China rich, China was not a threat to the world. Well, not exactly. China was the springboard for the Mongol onslaught on Asia and Europe, the source of many pandemics. Now that Xi has money, China is suddenly a bully with ever expanding military hardware.

There is also some sort of "spiritual" aspect to China's aspirations. Centuries ago China was very intrepid in sending out ships to explore the Asia Pac and beyond regions. The skills they exported to the locals they visited describe a culture more advanced than most of the places they visited and traded with. This all stopped when some Confucian advisor to the then-Chinese Emperor told the Emperor this ship building/exploring thing needed to stop. The Emperor hence burned all the ships and the China's foray into exploration, trade and somewhat colonization of other countries stopped and China turned inward.

 

During these centuries, Japan also saw itself as the pre-eminent hegemon of Asia Pac with its roots in their religious/spiritual beliefs; Japan and China have for centuries vied with each other as to which race/culture is superior. Both China and Japan believed they were superior to all other Asian cultures, but they also both believed they were superior to each other as well.

 

As China drew itself inward, Japan seized the opportunity to take dominion over Asia Pac and they did so with brutal aggression. Then their defeat in WWII ended their attempt to reign superior vs China. 

 

Now it's China's turn; courtesy of the west enabling their rise economically and their new-found nationalist superiority thinking brought to life by Xi Jing Ping. 

 

One interesting analogy to pre WWII era Japan and current China. As Japan spread it's brutal hegemony in Asia Pac in late 19th and 20th centuries, the US attempted to constrain Japan via oil embargos as the US controlled 80% of the world's oil. Thus Japan struck back by bombing Pearl Harbor. 

 

The "oil" of the 21st century is widely regarded to reside in semiconductors; i.e. the basis of the Information Age. The US controls 100% of the advanced semiconductor design expertise. And China's semiconductor mfg expertise is at least 2 generations behind the US and Taiwan. Now, in addition to its advanced semiconductor design dominance, the US is bringing back semiconductor mfg to it's own shores, and Taiwan is also building new advanced fabs in the US. 

 

China hence relies on the US for advanced semiconductors, this explains their penchant for taking over Taiwan while it is still mfg advanced chips and why China is conducting asymmetrical warfare against the US and world at large. The US essentially "owns" the "oil" of the day.

 

 

17 hours ago, placnx said:

It's a bit late to be preparing for Chinese aggression on Taiwan. The Obama team was asleep at the switch, and those 8 years have made a huge difference, unfortunately. It should have been clear by 2012 that Xi was out to change the relationship with the world. Perhaps Xi will end up shooting China in the foot. Time will tell.

We would not allow foreign influence in out back door (Cuba, Nicaragua etc) and those are foreign independent countries, where Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese  So  why should the Chinese allowed it?  Do you think if Texas declared it's independence and then engaged in a alliance with China we would allow it?   

IMO some times it is better to be asleep than to do stupid things . 

Edited November 30, 20214 yr by sirineou

17 hours ago, placnx said:

The US Civil War was horrible and Americans are still living with the consequences.

Indeed it was , but the point originally made was not the severity of our or the Chinese reaction but the fact that we also would not allow  secession and fought a bloody civil war over it.  

A misleading post has been removed

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

We would not allow foreign influence in out back door (Cuba, Nicaragua etc) and those are foreign independent countries, where Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese  So  why should the Chinese allowed it?  Do you think if Texas declared it's independence and then engaged in a alliance with China we would allow it?   

IMO some times it is better to be asleep than to do stupid things . 

You evoke of Monroe Doctrine from the early 1800s, which was soon followed by independence struggles in South America. Then you may be conflating this with the Cold War 1960-80 where US tried to counter Russian/Communist activity wherever, not just in the Americas.

 

Why don't you ask Taiwan people what they think? Or are they too stupid to have an opinion in this matter? They recently had an election where the side more disposed to China was soundly defeated, even as they distanced themselves from their previous (eventual) pro-unification policy.

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

We would not allow foreign influence in out back door (Cuba, Nicaragua etc) and those are foreign independent countries, where Taiwan is ethnically and culturally Chinese  So  why should the Chinese allowed it?  Do you think if Texas declared it's independence and then engaged in a alliance with China we would allow it?   

IMO some times it is better to be asleep than to do stupid things . 

The US seem to coexist fine next to an even bigger country, despite they engage in all kind of silly activities and dress their police force like below. China should do the same, mind their own business and leave Taiwan as the free and democratic country they are.

 

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The US seem to coexist fine next to an even bigger country, despite they engage in all kind of silly activities and dress their police force like below. China should do the same, mind their own business and leave Taiwan as the free and democratic country they are.

 

On the other hand, not so much with those other countries  to the south  . I guess it must be that very spiffy Canadian uniform. Who could be mad at a guy dressed like that? Not me. ????  

1 hour ago, placnx said:

You evoke of Monroe Doctrine from the early 1800s, which was soon followed by independence struggles in South America. Then you may be conflating this with the Cold War 1960-80 where US tried to counter Russian/Communist activity wherever, not just in the Americas.

 

Why don't you ask Taiwan people what they think? Or are they too stupid to have an opinion in this matter? They recently had an election where the side more disposed to China was soundly defeated, even as they distanced themselves from their previous (eventual) pro-unification policy.

US democracy  is like Henry Ford who would make any color model T , as long as it was black. ????

Bay of pigs

Edited November 30, 20214 yr by sirineou

On 11/27/2021 at 11:45 AM, Olmate said:

Well more recently they rented the Port of Darwin to them.....no need for warships!!!!

Australian Government sell there wares to the highest bidder like a low class hooker. 

USA military (or anyone else) is in no position to up against China's, conventional war, or worse.  Out numbered & out classed.  Not that there would ever be a conflict between them anyway, as simply not profitable for either.  They are only enemies in the MSM.  Aside from that, quite friendly.

 

Then again, they're in no position to go up against anyone.  When's the last they had a win in the past 7 decades ... ????

Edited November 30, 20214 yr by KhunLA

On 11/29/2021 at 2:49 AM, placnx said:

China is not yet capable of using a nuclear MAD deterrent, but in the last few months construction of hundreds of missile silos has been detected. In a few years some predict that China could have 1000 launch-capable missiles. That would be another piece in the strategy for taking Taiwan by force and ensuring that the US and others would stand off as it happened.

Chinese hypersonic missile test revealed unprecedented military capability: report | TheHill

 

China has developed a hypersonic glide missile that appears to have the capability to launch targeted missiles from the main glide missile. The main glide missile also appears to be able to continuously orbit the earth in an erratic fashion at hypersonic speeds thus making tracking and neutralizing the main glide missile very difficult. 

 

The orbital ability of this hypersonic missile would allow it to target numerous locations along its orbital path, and would be able to hit targets that have their early warning and anti-missile systems facing the opposite direction from an incoming missile launched from the main hypersonic glide missile.  It is very possible the missiles launched from the main glide missile could be armed with nuclear warheads.

 

This new weapon has the clear capability of being a surprise, little or no warning, FIRST STRIKE nuclear weapon. The Chinese indeed appear to have taken the MAD doctrine to a whole new level.

On 11/29/2021 at 2:57 AM, placnx said:

It's a bit late to be preparing for Chinese aggression on Taiwan. The Obama team was asleep at the switch, and those 8 years have made a huge difference, unfortunately. It should have been clear by 2012 that Xi was out to change the relationship with the world. Perhaps Xi will end up shooting China in the foot. Time will tell.

Obama wasn't just asleep at the wheel, he deluded himself into believing if the US took the unilateral step to reduce its military strength and modernization, Russia and China would follow. Incredibly naive, or by some observations, stupid or traitorous.

 

Additionally, N. Korea made the most progress in having nukes during the Obama years.

3 hours ago, WingFat said:

This new weapon has the clear capability of being a surprise, little or no warning, FIRST STRIKE nuclear weapon. The Chinese indeed appear to have taken the MAD doctrine to a whole new level.

And a nuke sub w/nuke warheads chillin' out in the Sea of China isn't  1st strike weapon ???

USA, I think, has 14 nuke subs (offiially), w/ballistic nuke missiles, at least 10 on each sub, that can deliver 3 warheads each.  Potential of ~500 nukes to launch at any given time, any where ... from subs.

 

Surely China has just as many or more.  Good thing they friends, and war between them wouldn't be profitable to either.  Unplug from MSM ... preparing for the never to happen war is good for profits, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited November 30, 20214 yr by KhunLA

12 hours ago, WingFat said:

Obama wasn't just asleep at the wheel, he deluded himself into believing if the US took the unilateral step to reduce its military strength and modernization, Russia and China would follow. Incredibly naive, or by some observations, stupid or traitorous.

 

Additionally, N. Korea made the most progress in having nukes during the Obama years.

The right wing nutters in the USA pose a much bigger threat to America than China will ever be. 

12 hours ago, WingFat said:

Obama wasn't just asleep at the wheel, he deluded himself into believing if the US took the unilateral step to reduce its military strength and modernization, Russia and China would follow. Incredibly naive, or by some observations, stupid or traitorous.

 

Additionally, N. Korea made the most progress in having nukes during the Obama years.

They trolled Trump pretty good. They knew that all they had to do was say nice things about Trump and continue doing what they were doing because Trump rarely listened to his daily intelligence briefings anyway. Trump declared he was in love with the NK leader.