Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, sungod said:

Then best to stick to what we know and not just mention 'probably unvaccinated' as that can spread false information.

 

In may countries the odds are that HIV patients are vaxxed as its recommended they are in priority groups due to their condition.

As you probably know, the vaccination rate in Africa is very low.  So odds are this person wasn't vaccinated.

[sungod]

Just now, ozimoron said:

That's not the case in SA where only 6% are vaccinated and there are known to be large numbers of untreated HIV infections. Probably would be a fair summation.

So lets stick to what the scientist actually said then.

[sungod]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It's utterly irrelevant to the issue of enforced vaccinations whether you are vaccinated or not. Your vaccination status affects not at all the validity of your arguments. And, of course, such assertions about one's vaccination status are impossible to verify.

It has every relevance, most pro vaxxers brand you an anti vaxxer if you disagree with them.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, sungod said:

So lets stick to what the scientist actually said then.

OK, they actually did say "probably"

 

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-12-02/did-omicron-coronavirus-variant-arise-in-patient-with-uncontrolled-hiv

[placeholder]

Just now, sungod said:

It has every relevance, most pro vaxxers brand you an anti vaxxer if you disagree with them.

In that case, you should point out that it's immaterial whether you're vaccinated or not. It's only the quality of your arguments that's pertinent.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, sungod said:

For those of us who are vaccinated, we want people to have the freedom of choice.

The arguments are not that simple.

Some years ago in the UK there was a big debate over the health service being overburdened by people with smoking related illness, effectively self inflicted injury.

By the same token should governments allow healthcare to become unavailable to many because of those that have chosen not to be vaccinated?

Many have died during the pandemic from non covid related illness due to facilities being tied up on covid patients.

Governments have a right to try and reduce hospitalisation from covid and vaccination is an effective way, something that has been statistically proven.

[nobodysfriend]

20 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

False. Vaccines GREATLY reduce infections. Break through infections are RARE.

 

This same lie keeps being repeated on this forum without there ever having been a single link pointing to evidence and despite there being widespread evidence to the contrary.

Is there an immunity that can be acquired by vaccination ?

No ! Vaccination reduces the risk of being infected , but does NOT provide immunity .

 

https://www.dw.com/en/5-reasons-germanys-covid-19-infections-are-soaring/a-59793087

Waning immunity

While the jabs significantly lower the risk of serious illness and death, they don’t fully protect against infection. With soaring case numbers, the risk of getting COVID-19 also rises for vaccinated people.

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/more-than-6500-new-breakthrough-cases-in-mass-43-more-deaths-in-vaccinated-people/2578723/

 

More Than 6,500 New Breakthrough Cases in Mass., 43 More Deaths in Vaccinated People

In the last week, 6,610 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 158 more vaccinated people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. It's a 9% increase in the rate of new breakthrough cases in Massachusetts

The new report brings the total number of breakthrough cases to 77,647,

You say :

" This same lie keeps being repeated on this forum without there ever having been a single link pointing to evidence and despite there being widespread evidence to the contrary. "

 

May I suggest that you read before you post ?

Or is this asked too much ?

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by nobodysfriend

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, sungod said:

It has every relevance, most pro vaxxers brand you an anti vaxxer if you disagree with them.

Only if you refute science and facts.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, nobodysfriend said:

Is there an immunity that can be acquired by vaccination ?

No ! Vaccination reduces the risk of being infected , but does NOT provide immunity .

 

https://www.dw.com/en/5-reasons-germanys-covid-19-infections-are-soaring/a-59793087

Waning immunity

While the jabs significantly lower the risk of serious illness and death, they don’t fully protect against infection. With soaring case numbers, the risk of getting COVID-19 also rises for vaccinated people.

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/more-than-6500-new-breakthrough-cases-in-mass-43-more-deaths-in-vaccinated-people/2578723/

 

More Than 6,500 New Breakthrough Cases in Mass., 43 More Deaths in Vaccinated People

In the last week, 6,610 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 158 more vaccinated people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. It's a 9% increase in the rate of new breakthrough cases in Massachusetts

The new report brings the total number of breakthrough cases to 77,647,

 

But in the end, they work.  And keep you out of the hospital with a tube jammed down your throat.  No denying that.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, nobodysfriend said:

Is there an immunity that can be acquired by vaccination ?

No ! Vaccination reduces the risk of being infected , but does NOT provide immunity .

 

https://www.dw.com/en/5-reasons-germanys-covid-19-infections-are-soaring/a-59793087

Waning immunity

While the jabs significantly lower the risk of serious illness and death, they don’t fully protect against infection. With soaring case numbers, the risk of getting COVID-19 also rises for vaccinated people.

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/more-than-6500-new-breakthrough-cases-in-mass-43-more-deaths-in-vaccinated-people/2578723/

 

More Than 6,500 New Breakthrough Cases in Mass., 43 More Deaths in Vaccinated People

In the last week, 6,610 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 158 more vaccinated people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. It's a 9% increase in the rate of new breakthrough cases in Massachusetts

The new report brings the total number of breakthrough cases to 77,647,

 

Your own reference belies your claim that vaccines ONLY prevent serious illness and death.

[Jeffr2]

Very interesting article on "POTENTIALLY" where this variant came from.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-southern-africa-detected-omicron-variant-so-quickly-2021-11

 

It's suspected that wild card variants like Omicron, with many dozens of new changes to the virus' genetic sequence, often sprout from one single, immunocompromised host, who can't mount proper defenses against the virus, and thus incubates the virus as it replicates for months and months on end.  

 

"Given the alphabet soup of mutations, I think it's probably more likely that this was the result of ongoing molecular evolution inside a single host that spilled over into the population," Charity Dean, CEO and cofounder of The Public Health Company, said of the theory that this new variant came from a single, immunocompromised person.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

Is there an immunity that can be acquired by vaccination ?

No ! Vaccination reduces the risk of being infected , but does NOT provide immunity .

 

https://www.dw.com/en/5-reasons-germanys-covid-19-infections-are-soaring/a-59793087

Waning immunity

While the jabs significantly lower the risk of serious illness and death, they don’t fully protect against infection. With soaring case numbers, the risk of getting COVID-19 also rises for vaccinated people.

 

https://www.nbcboston.com/news/coronavirus/more-than-6500-new-breakthrough-cases-in-mass-43-more-deaths-in-vaccinated-people/2578723/

 

More Than 6,500 New Breakthrough Cases in Mass., 43 More Deaths in Vaccinated People

In the last week, 6,610 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 158 more vaccinated people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health officials said Tuesday. It's a 9% increase in the rate of new breakthrough cases in Massachusetts

The new report brings the total number of breakthrough cases to 77,647,

 

Why is it so hard for some to understand the difference between absolute immunity and increased immunity? This is not an issue of all or nothing.

[sungod]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In that case, you should point out that it's immaterial whether you're vaccinated or not. It's only the quality of your arguments that's pertinent.

If people didn't assume you were anti vax due to your difference of opinion, then there would be no need.

 

I think you are trying to educate the wrong crowd.

[The Cipher]

5 minutes ago, sungod said:

as opposed to what?

 

I'm unvaccinated but?

Lol. He tried to twist a previous argument of mine the same way too. That guy's absolute fav accusation is that anyone who claims to be vaccinated but doesn't feel the incredible compulsion to force everyone else to get vaccinated must be lying about their own vax status to run a false flag op.

 

The Covid argument is gonna run in circles on here (and elsewhere) until the end of time. Or at least, until the end of Covid - so pretty much the same thing.

 

Participating in Covid debates is a waste of time unless you feel confident that you have a chance to materially shape policy. If you're angry about the situation, the best use of your energy is probably to work on self/skill/income improvement. The best revenge is winning at life.

[nobodysfriend]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

But in the end, they work.  And keep you out of the hospital with a tube jammed down your throat.  No denying that.

Yes , they seem to work . At least they offer protection against the effects of the virus . With Delta . With Omicron , it still has to be proven , even if it is possible .

People seem to confuse the word ' Immunity ' with protection . 

Edited December 3, 2021 by nobodysfriend

[Kinnock]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Understood.  But sadly, many non-vaxxers don't wear masks and don't social distance.  As shown by the increase in cases globally.

 

I'm vaxxed and still wear a mask when appropriate and social distance when appropriate.

Yes, the world has changed, and we all need to change our behaviours to adjust to new environment.

 

I'm pro-vax, but it's not the only effective measure. 

[sungod]

3 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Lol. He tried to twist a previous argument of mine the same way too. That guy's absolute fav accusation is that anyone who claims to be vaccinated but doesn't feel the incredible compulsion to force everyone else to get vaccinated must be lying about their own vax status to run a false flag op.

 

The Covid argument is gonna run in circles on here (and elsewhere) until the end of time. Or at least, until the end of Covid - so pretty much the same thing.

 

Participating in Covid debates is a waste of time unless you feel confident that you have a chance to materially shape policy. If you're angry about the situation, the best use of your energy is probably to work on self/skill/income improvement. The best revenge is winning at life.

yep, I got some work to do.

[ignis]

Hospital beds were full and overflowing in UK in 2019 before Covid

 

UK Government website - 2019  there was 29,161 deaths due to Flu/influenza......... mostly amount the older..

 

somehow there appear to be less people dying of Covid ? can find no reports of death from Flu/influenza for 2020...........  is Flu/influenza death reported as Covid ?

[blackprince]

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But you just made an argument of a simple binary. 

A more observant and less ideologically motivated reader would have noticed that I actually split the tedious binary into a four-way.

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, sungod said:

So why not ban smoking then?

Because it has no impact on my health or life.  Understand?

[blackprince]

Just now, blackprince said:

A more observant and less ideologically motivated reader would have noticed that I actually split the tedious binary into a four-way.

Only marginally less tedious, but definitely a step in the right direction away from the mind-numbingly over-simplified binary culture war that dominates the online world.

 

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

Yes , they seem to work . At least they offer protection against the effects of the virus . With Delta . With Omicron , it still has to be proven , even if it is possible .

People seem to confuse the word ' Immunity ' with protection . 

All vaccine manufacturers have come out and said they're vaccines will work with Omicron.  They're just not sure if there will be a reduced efficacy.  But they'll work.

 

Please don't get hung up on the word 'Immunity'.  We all understand this very well.

[Scott]

28 minutes ago, JaydenL said:

Dying, maybe, we don't know yet. Getting sick, looks like false, otherwise countries with over 80 % vaccination rate wouldn't experience such huge surges in cases. Regarding the actual statistics of deaths, every vaccine needs 5 to 10 years to be tested, so we are just a part of a huge experiment, to quote the scientist who worked with mRNA. That's all. In other words, you are quoting odds of what a vaccine is supposed to be, not what that vaccine is, which we will only know within the timeframe stated.

Please don't post unsubstantiated claims. 

 

When talking about the % vaccinated it needs to be kept in mind that is the % of people who are ELIGIBLE to be vaccinated.  In many places that leaves a pretty big swath of young people unvaccinated and quite able to contract and spread the virus.   Add to that the 20% who simply are not.  Those two together make for a large pool of people.  

With Delta and I suspect with the transmissibility of Omicron that until any places reaches a 90-95% vaccine rate for the entire population, we will continue to see spread. 

Developing and testing vaccines can be a long and tedious process, however, the technology of mRNA has already been tested in numerous other vaccines.  The technology is safe, it was just a matter of testing the effectiveness of the particular RNA being used.  

[sungod]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Because it has no impact on my health or life.  Understand?

It may do if they are clogging up hospital beds.......understand?

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, sungod said:

It may do if they are clogging up hospital beds.......understand?

But they're not.

[PremiumLane]

2 hours ago, JaydenL said:

Great post. I think there's a huge misunderstanding, since whenever someone opposes this agenda is called an anti-vaxxer, regarding of their status. I don't know many people who simply oppose such plans who are anti-vaxxers, they just, same as me, state that there must be the right to choose what to do with our own bodies and health, there is an extremely low population of people who are actual "anti-vaxxers", in reality, people who see the ridiculous development of the economic world nowadays and criticize the potential mandates to vaccinate are just written off as "anti-vaxxers" to create even more hate, that's all.

Not that simple though is it. You can choose to do what you want with your own health, but you are impacting on others by not getting vaccinated. Also, vaccine mandates are not some new thing, they have been around for a long time, and especially in certain jobs. 

 

Every person I have met who doesn't want to be vaccinated has been an anti-vaxxer (anti this vaccine)  and usually spouts incredibly ignorant garbage they read on FB or watched in a YouTube video. Yeah, yeah, sure there are exceptions, but not many. 

[peter zwart]

I still dont get it. Why are the vaccinated so afraid and angry at non-vaccinated? They are protected by the vaccine. Right? And the story about full ic........be angry at your gouvernment who cut down on medical expensives for decades already. That is where the problem lays.

[Dene16]

2 hours ago, blackprince said:

I've countered this point many times. In fact you "liked" a post of mine yesterday that explains that non vaxx doesn't explain the surge in the UK (as c90% are vaxxed). The same case could be made for other vaxxed countries.

 

 

I don’t know where you get 90% from but that’s not true, maybe close to the total adult population ?
The problem the UK has, is that the youth are not bothering to getting vaccinated, plus school children remain unvaccinated and continue to spread the virus to both other children and their parents. The so called herd immunity does not work in these circumstances. I have a rented property where the children have got covid twice now and had to isolate but parents refuse to get vaccinated

 

From my viewpoint everyone should have the right to not be vaccinated, but you have to except the consequences of your actions and like the cases in the USA why should anyone employee you and put their business and other employees at risk just because of one persons belief.  It’s a two way street

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, peter zwart said:

I still dont get it. Why are the vaccinated so afraid and angry at non-vaccinated? They are protected by the vaccine. Right? And the story about full ic........be angry at your gouvernment who cut down on medical expensives for decades already. That is where the problem lays.

Come on.  You can't be serious.  You're joking, right?

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, Dene16 said:

I don’t know where you get 90% from but that’s not true, maybe close to the total adult population ?
The problem the UK has, is that the youth are not bothering to getting vaccinated, plus school children remain unvaccinated and continue to spread the virus to both other children and their parents. The so called herd immunity does not work in these circumstances. I have a rented property where the children have got covid twice now and had to isolate but parents refuse to get vaccinated

 

From my viewpoint everyone should have the right to not be vaccinated, but you have to except the consequences of your actions and like the cases in the USA why should anyone employee you and put their business and other employees at risk just because of one persons belief.  It’s a two way street

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html