Do I need an attorney? Condo purchase

[dia1]

I am preparing to buy a freehold condo in Bangkok ... The building is established already and was built in 2007.  The real estate agency is preparing the sale contract, and the owner and I have agreed on a price and date to complete the transfer at the land office. I have checked the financials posted on the wall and they do not seem to bleeding cash or bankrupt.

 

My question is... Do I need an attorney for the process?

 

The agent says the foreign quota hasn't been met, and I don't suspect the land office would allow the transaction to be completed if it was. Out of curiosity, I called an attorney and asked what the fee would be to review the sales agreement and all the documentation to make sure everything was on the up and up and the person who answered asked if I had done 'due dilegence' of the condo. When I asked what he meant, he mentioned making sure the unit didn't have any outstanding liabilities that would be passed on to me.

 

This confused me as I was under the impression that the owner needed a letter from the Juristic Office stating that they had no outstanding debts. So, I can't tell if this is something I should really be worried about or just something a lawyer is using to try to get more $$ out of me. It seems like the Land Office wouldn't allow the transaction to go through if it were.

 

I have read conflicting information everywhere. People on this forum say you don't need a lawyer and then others say get a lawyer as there are "horror stories".... The only stories I can find are horrors of people buying off-plan condos that aren't finished yet. I can't find a story of someone buying an established condo and finding themselves lost and broke.

 

So my question is... Do I need to hire an attorney to review the documents or anything else or would I just be throwing my money away to someone who basically does nothing but review the documents just the same as the Land Office will? Is using the Real Estate company for the transfer good enough or do I somehow risk completing the transfer at the Land Office and finding myself screwed.

 

TYIA

[scubascuba3]

If you do all the research yourself you won't need a lawyer. You've done the first thing by checking the accounts, see most recent AGM minutes, see how often they have a supplementary fee, so you understand what the common fees really are. The office can confirm if it's foreign quota or there's enough quota left, can issue a draft letter for you

[big dendrobenaes]

not really i did not use onle to buy my 2 roomed condo

[ed strong]

I would definitely have someone of an independent position, double check all aspects of the sale.

 

Even better would be to get two to check it.

[KhunLA]

Being you are asking, that would yes, you need, should be inexpensive.

 

Due diligence if anything owed ... just a guess, but as I yank, I would think he means a title / deed search for outstanding debts, loans against, anything (called clouds in USA) that the property was used as collateral for a loan, and or any judgements against the property.  

 

Unless you are fluent (reading) Thai, then a lawyer is a good idea.  Thai is the only binding contract language accepted.

[scubascuba3]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Being you are asking, that would yes, you need, should be inexpensive.

 

Due diligence if anything owed ... just a guess, but as I yank, I would think he means a title / deed search for outstanding debts, loans against, anything (called clouds in USA) that the property was used as collateral for a loan, and or any judgements against the property.  

 

Unless you are fluent (reading) Thai, then a lawyer is a good idea.  Thai is the only binding contract language accepted.

I hear that if there is a loan on the property the owner wouldn't have the chanote. As for reading thai, i used google lens at the land office and it worked perfectly

[scubascuba3]

Is the condo in thai name or thai company?

[dia1]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Is the condo in thai name or thai company?

It's owned by a farang and his Thai wife.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I don't think it would be expensive or time-consuming to have a lawyer or other competent person review the chanote to make sure there is no mortgage or other encumbrance. Also the lawyer could advise whether the seller makes the appropriate representations in the sale and purchase agreement regarding having clear title to the property without any obligations outstanding. Lastly, the lawyer could check with the relevant sections in the Land Department office to make sure that there is no lien or mortgage that is in process but has not yet been entered onto the chanote. 

[scubascuba3]

25 minutes ago, dia1 said:

It's owned by a farang and his Thai wife.

That doesn't really confirm how it's held, it's important you know

[Gottfrid]

YES!

[Mark Nothing]

Yes, you need an attorney to ensure the condo is free from debts or liens.

 

My buddy got burned for 5 million baht on his condo purchase.  The developer got paid twice for one condo.  My friend paid in full up front and in the meantime the developer took out a bank loan using the condo as collateral.

 

My friend got the title deed to the condo and lived in it for years.  But then he tried selling it and the real estate lady noticed there was a bank stamp right on the title deed showing the loan plus many years of accrued interest.  All in Thai language.  

 

So he went to the developer who didn't know anything about the loan outstanding and wouldn't make good on the outstanding debt.

 

After the sale went thru, 5,000,000 baht became 115,000 baht.

 

A great guy.  Too Trusting.  Unfortunate.  

 

[aldriglikvid]

In Thailand, where do we control

1) The actual owner of the condo? 

 

2) if there's a mortgage/encumbrance on a unit? Juristic Office or is there a public/government space for this?  

 

I've read many stories (mainly off plan/new builts) that a few years down the line he/she finds out he/she is not the real owner. I'm thinking of buying hence want to check this out. 

[Peterw42]

5 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

In Thailand, where do we control

1) The actual owner of the condo? 

 

2) if there's a mortgage/encumbrance on a unit? Juristic Office or is there a public/government space for this?  

 

I've read many stories (mainly off plan/new builts) that a few years down the line he/she finds out he/she is not the real owner. I'm thinking of buying hence want to check this out. 

The Land office has all the information and controls owner, mortgage etc.

The land office wont transfer the property unless the owner shows they are the owner, the land office wont transfer the property unless any mortgage is cleared, foreign quota is met etc. If there is a mortgage, its written on the back of the chanote (title deed) and the sale wont happen unless the bank is also at the land office to clear any mortgage.

Simply put, you dont exchange the money until your name is on the title deed, and the land office wont put your name on the tile deed unless everything is in order.

Stories you hear about finding out you are not the owner etc, are rubbish.

[dsj]

I remember when I bought a condo in 2010, brand new, I had a lawyer look over the sales contract, and he did find allot of misinterpretation mistakes when they translated it into English, I believe he only charged me 20,000 Baht, and I felt it was worth it.

[LukKrueng]

22 hours ago, dia1 said:

 

My question is... Do I need an attorney for the process?

No, you don't. 

You can take a copy of the chanot to the land office and they'll tell you if the property is mortgaged or has any court proceedings hanging on it. You can ask at the condo office re foreign quota (if the quota is nearly full and you're still weeks from transfer of ownership - it might be a problem, as the quota will be updated everyone there'sa change of ownership of any of the units) and also if all fees were paid by current owner or if he owes money to the building. 

[CygnusX1]

When I bought my Thai condo 3 years ago, the super efficient estate agent drew up the sales contract. I made an appointment with a lawyer to review the contract. After taking a few minutes to read it through, he said it was all OK. When I asked him how much I owed him, he said forget it, no charge. Can’t imagine a lawyer in Australia doing that! The estate agent then organised the transfer at the land office. 

[scubascuba3]

4 minutes ago, CygnusX1 said:

When I bought my Thai condo 3 years ago, the super efficient estate agent drew up the sales contract. I made an appointment with a lawyer to review the contract. After taking a few minutes to read it through, he said it was all OK. When I asked him how much I owed him, he said forget it, no charge. Can’t imagine a lawyer in Australia doing that! The estate agent then organised the transfer at the land office. 

Good point that the agent can help with the transfer at the land office, they are getting big commission so should be helping, they should be more expert than a lawyer at that process

[aldriglikvid]

11 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The Land office has all the information and controls owner, mortgage etc.

The land office wont transfer the property unless the owner shows they are the owner, the land office wont transfer the property unless any mortgage is cleared, foreign quota is met etc. If there is a mortgage, its written on the back of the chanote (title deed) and the sale wont happen unless the bank is also at the land office to clear any mortgage.

Simply put, you dont exchange the money until your name is on the title deed, and the land office wont put your name on the tile deed unless everything is in order.

Stories you hear about finding out you are not the owner etc, are rubbish.

Extremely appreciated (and comforting), thanks! ????

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Good point that the agent can help with the transfer at the land office, they are getting big commission so should be helping, they should be more expert than a lawyer at that process

Sure, but between "should be more expert than a lawyer at that process" and they are experts and they care enough to care about the buyer there are differences. The priority for many (most?) agents is to make money - as much and as fast as possible.

[BTB1977]

The guy in the article above this one has a condo for sale.

[Adumbration]

16 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The Land office has all the information and controls owner, mortgage etc.

The land office wont transfer the property unless the owner shows they are the owner, the land office wont transfer the property unless any mortgage is cleared, foreign quota is met etc. If there is a mortgage, its written on the back of the chanote (title deed) and the sale wont happen unless the bank is also at the land office to clear any mortgage.

Simply put, you dont exchange the money until your name is on the title deed, and the land office wont put your name on the tile deed unless everything is in order.

Stories you hear about finding out you are not the owner etc, are rubbish.

This is correct.

 

1. Always ensure that you negotiate a sales price with Vendor to pay all tax and transfer costs.

2. Request copy of Chanote and copy of Vendor's ID card (Thai) or passport (Farang)

3. Check to make sure ID matches name on Chanote.

4. If land (not condo) check (whoa chanote) peg numbers match those on Chanote.

5. Get your bank to issue a cashiers check for full purchase amount in the name on Chanote.

6. Go to Land office.  Give them a copy of your passport. They will check the back of the chanote to ensure it is clear of any encumbrances and then type up a new copy with your name on it. 

7. Double check your name is correctly spelled on the new Chanote.

8. Give the cashiers check to Vendor.

 

It is as simple as that.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Adumbration

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Adumbration said:

This is correct.

 

1. Always ensure that you negotiate a sales price with Vendor to pay all tax and transfer costs.

2. Request copy of Chanote and copy of Vendor's ID card (Thai) or passport (Farang)

3. Check to make sure ID matches name on Chanote.

4. If land (not condo) check (whoa chanote) peg numbers match those on Chanote.

5. Get your bank to issue a cashiers check for full purchase amount in the name on Chanote.

6. Go to Land office.  Give them a copy of your passport. They will check the back of the chanote to ensure it is clear of any encumbrances and then type up a new copy with your name on it. 

7. Double check your name is correctly spelled on the new Chanote.

8. Give the cashiers check to Vendor.

 

It is as simple as that.  

Thanks

Is there a contract? And if yes, are there any approved sample contracts in Thai and English maybe online somewhere?

[Why Me]

The guys above listing points to look at don't know all the points. You are going to be at one end of a contract governed by Thai law. No poster in this thread has credible expertise in Thai contract law or the ins and outs of what to look for in a multimillion b. asset sale (prove me wrong - "I bought and sold 5 properties in the last 10 years" is laughable).

 

Get a reputable legal firm on  your side. Think of it as health insurance. You may hate paying the premium each healthy year but that proverbial bus could be around the corner. Heck, even 50k b. legal fees is 1% of a 5mil deal. It's cheap insurance.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Why Me

[scubascuba3]

3 hours ago, Adumbration said:

This is correct.

 

1. Always ensure that you negotiate a sales price with Vendor to pay all tax and transfer costs.

2. Request copy of Chanote and copy of Vendor's ID card (Thai) or passport (Farang)

3. Check to make sure ID matches name on Chanote.

4. If land (not condo) check (whoa chanote) peg numbers match those on Chanote.

5. Get your bank to issue a cashiers check for full purchase amount in the name on Chanote.

6. Go to Land office.  Give them a copy of your passport. They will check the back of the chanote to ensure it is clear of any encumbrances and then type up a new copy with your name on it. 

7. Double check your name is correctly spelled on the new Chanote.

8. Give the cashiers check to Vendor.

 

It is as simple as that.  

 

 

 

 

 

No.7 is in Thai so ensure you know how to spell your name in Thai before you go

[scubascuba3]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Sure, but between "should be more expert than a lawyer at that process" and they are experts and they care enough to care about the buyer there are differences. The priority for many (most?) agents is to make money - as much and as fast as possible.

The agent will get commission for the sale anyway, so wants it to go through smoothly, but you need to understand the whole process so you can check it along the way. If you get a lawyer ask them to list out what they do for the money, i think they will balk at that, some may not do much at all. I'm not even sure a lawyer would pick up  irregularities

Edited December 4, 2021 by scubascuba3

[Fairynuff]

I’ve bought and sold a number of condos and never used a lawyer. Though I’ve never bought from a private individual I’ve sold to one. What I have always done is have a trusted Thai friend be there for translation purposes.

[brianthainess]

12 hours ago, BTB1977 said:

The guy in the article above this one has a condo for sale.

And no service fees have been paid for years !

[newnative]

     You don't need a lawyer but I think it's worth it to have one to check over the sales contract and make sure everything is spelled out in detail, you are covered on everything, and there are no ambiguities.  The lawyer should be with you at the Land Office to make sure everything is done correctly and to handle anything that might come up--and things sometime do come up.  

[scubascuba3]

55 minutes ago, newnative said:

     You don't need a lawyer but I think it's worth it to have one to check over the sales contract and make sure everything is spelled out in detail, you are covered on everything, and there are no ambiguities.  The lawyer should be with you at the Land Office to make sure everything is done correctly and to handle anything that might come up--and things sometime do come up.  

you seem to know about these things, if there is a mortgage on a property wouldn't the bank hold the chanote?