ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Your mind works in mysterious ways.

Why multiply by 10, then by 2?

Why not just multiply by 20?

People can do their own math.  Originally (linked) I did it by 8 yr warranty, and was <5 %.  I did it at 14 months instead of 1 yr, so there's that, as would have been easier.

 

I think people are smart enough to work the numbers that fit their lifestyle.

 

If people get rid of cars near of after warranty, they can use that.  I thought 10 was a nice round number.   For those that keep cars (ICEV) till they die, then X2.  I actually had a 25 yr old car, and still kicking.  Most I killed or died much earlier.

 

Just defuncting with BS.  Interested people can use as a reference.  And you get to complain about how I do my math ... win win for everyone.

 

Have a nice day.

[josephbloggs]

God this thread has become really really boring.

[Yellowtail]

8 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

God this thread has become really really boring.

But yours really added a bit of excitement. 

[Yellowtail]

As they say, a warranty is only as good as the company behind it, and a lifetime warranty is worthless if the company that sold it goes out of business or abandons the market. 

 

Assuming one's driving habits remain the same, I think as batteries degrade, more of the capacity has to be used between cycles, and as such the degradation will accelerate over time.

 

Incidentally, JC Penney had an automotive service department that, for a few years back in the '70s, sold the "forever battery" with an unlimited lifetime warranty, to the original owner, in the original vehicle. They no longer have an automotive division, but they are still replacing those batteries. 

[Gweiloman]

9 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

God this thread has become really really boring.

I think it’s because the anti-EVers are desperate to try and prove that ICEs are better vehicles. They can’t be more wrong of course.

 

It’s an undeniable fact that EVs are cheaper to run and maintain. A few years ago, this huge benefit was offset by higher prices but thanks to China, we are now in a situation where some are even cheaper than a similar ICEV.

 

Add to this the benefits of cleaner air, reduction in noise pollution, not needing to go to a petrol station once or twice a week, being able to remotely operate some functions etc, it really is a no brainer for the large majority of people. 
 

I used to think that DVR’s were the bees knees, back in the 80’s and 90’s. Those days, streaming movies was unthinkable. Anti-EVers can’t bring themselves to admit that EVs are a much better technology and won’t even acknowledge the benefits. 
 

As previously stated numerous times, an EV is not for everyone. If you can’t charge at home, if you frequently do long (> 600 km) journeys, if you love the smell of fossil fuels, if the thrill of slow acceleration excites you, then an ICEV is probably the better choice of vehicle. 

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

I think it’s because the anti-EVers are desperate to try and prove that ICEs are better vehicles. They can’t be more wrong of course.

 

It’s an undeniable fact that EVs are cheaper to run and maintain. A few years ago, this huge benefit was offset by higher prices but thanks to China, we are now in a situation where some are even cheaper than a similar ICEV.

 

Add to this the benefits of cleaner air, reduction in noise pollution, not needing to go to a petrol station once or twice a week, being able to remotely operate some functions etc, it really is a no brainer for the large majority of people. 
 

I used to think that DVR’s were the bees knees, back in the 80’s and 90’s. Those days, streaming movies was unthinkable. Anti-EVers can’t bring themselves to admit that EVs are a much better technology and won’t even acknowledge the benefits. 
 

As previously stated numerous times, an EV is not for everyone. If you can’t charge at home, if you frequently do long (> 600 km) journeys, if you love the smell of fossil fuels, if the thrill of slow acceleration excites you, then an ICEV is probably the better choice of vehicle. 

 

My aged lady friend can't charge at home, it didn't stop her buying an MG4 X-Power, she charges at PTT/Amazon about every 6 days and enjoys the coffee there.

 

Not being able to charge at home is inconvenient, but it's not a show-stopper for owning an EV depending on your life style.

 

I think one of the reasons EV's drive so much better than ICE is the ultra low Center of Gravity and that they are a heavier car.  Every heavy car I have owned has always driven better than a light car.

[Gweiloman]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

My aged lady friend can't charge at home, it didn't stop her buying an MG4 X-Power, she charges at PTT/Amazon about every 6 days and enjoys the coffee there.

 

Not being able to charge at home is inconvenient, but it's not a show-stopper for owning an EV depending on your life style.

 

 

I completely agree. Those of us who actually owns EVs know that it is workable. For the whole of this month thus far, I’ve not touched my wall charger even once. I’ve been charging at one of Rever’s free stations, must be around 10 times now but that’s because I’m absolutely abusing it, charging my PHEV from my Dolphin and powering my home appliances (not at same time of course). I usually average about 400 kWh from the grid per month (plus another 2-300 kWh from my solar) but this month, even with low solar production, I am on course to use less than 200 kWh from PEA.

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

My aged lady friend can't charge at home, it didn't stop her buying an MG4 X-Power, she charges at PTT/Amazon about every 6 days and enjoys the coffee there.

 

Not being able to charge at home is inconvenient, but it's not a show-stopper for owning an EV depending on your life style.

 

I think one of the reasons EV's drive so much better than ICE is the ultra low Center of Gravity and that they are a heavier car.  Every heavy car I have owned has always driven better than a light car.

The low center of gravity is indeed an advantage. 

 

Are there any organized electric motor sports going yet? That would be a great way to promote them. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

The low center of gravity is indeed an advantage. 

 

Are there any organized electric motor sports going yet? That would be a great way to promote them. 

 

The best handling EV I have driven is the MG4,  a racing category for that would be interesting

[Yellowtail]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

The best handling EV I have driven is the MG4,  a racing category for that would be interesting

Or drifting competition 

[Fruit Trader]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The best handling EV I have driven is the MG4,  a racing category for that would be interesting

 

Indeed, below is photo taken from behind the pits.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

The low center of gravity is indeed an advantage. 

 

Are there any organized electric motor sports going yet? That would be a great way to promote them. 

Isn’t Formula E an organised electric motor sports?

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Gweiloman said:

Isn’t Formula E an organised electric motor sports?

I don't know, that's why I was asking. Is it?

[terryq]

3 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Isn’t Formula E an organised electric motor sports?

Yes it is plus extreme e for off roaders plus moto e for bikes.

 

[In the jungle]

15 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Let's go real life, after 14 months, and 22.5k kms, battery degradation of our BEV was ~0.6 %.

 

0.6 % X 10  =  6 % X 2 = 12 % means still have 88 % capacity left after 

22.5k kms X 10 = 225,000 kms  X 2 = 450,000 kms driven

14 months X 10 = 140 months =  11.66 yrs X 2 = 23.33 years owned

 

Oh yea, today's petrol price & savings, using solar = 1.2+M baht saved over those 23+ yrs.

If using PEA, savings still about 980k +/- baht, I think

 

How many kms per liter do you get, and what will that cost you in 225k kms/11.66 years ?   That we won't pay, if all driving is local, and use excess solar at the house.

 

That approach is fundamentally flawed as you are assuming battery degradation is linear.

[In the jungle]

27 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Isn’t Formula E an organised electric motor sports?

 

Yes it is but very few people watch it.

[In the jungle]

17 hours ago, KhunLA said:

You really need to learn how to use the forum ... click on the below quote:

 

... "EDIT: Alzheimer Alert: you actually quoted the exact info you are asking me for."

 

Then click on 'expand' in the first quote of mine, that you quoted

 

"He who asserts shall prove.  You made the claim."

I did already, now twice ... 😎

 

One of the things that makes this topic particularly unpleasant is that you, and a number of others who participate, are fond of making offensive and baseless personal comments as you did here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, In the jungle said:

That approach is fundamentally flawed as you are assuming battery degradation is linear.

Again, you ignorance shines, as most testing & research shows the largest degradation of battery life is in the very early stages of life, then possible in the extreme later stages of battery life, which highly unlikely, the rest of the vehicle would last as long as the battery or motors.   

 

Unless one is really racking up the kms every year.  It would take us over 25 years to put 500k kms on any vehicle.  If we only drove necessary kms, might take 50+ years, to put on half that, as we only need to drive about 5k kms a year, if that.

40 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

One of the things that makes this topic particularly unpleasant is that you, and a number of others who participate, are fond of making offensive and baseless personal comments as you did here.

Kind of thought the Alzheimer's remark was spot on, since you already quoted & replied to the exact same info you wanted me to post.  And less than 1 year ago.

 

Does boggle the mind how you forgot something so specific.

 

What's annoying is the people that have no interests in EVs, but spew a bunch of BS, they know nothing about.  And question and ask for verification from those that own, and know exactly what they are talking about.

 

I'm happy to be, and have been corrected occasionally, the the silliness some of you state and ask for is either complete & utter ignorance (no research) or simply trolling.

 

Seems every EV thread is about 10% information offered, and 90% information of trolls being corrected.  IMHO

 

My last 10ish post on this thread proves that, as have offered nothing new, simply pointing out and correcting the BS.

Edited August 25 by KhunLA

[Fruit Trader]

58 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

 

That approach is fundamentally flawed as you are assuming battery degradation is linear.

 

There's a lot of fuzzy logic in these EV topics which is likely why the confused emoji is so widespread. Perhaps we should start handing out badges to our wonderful EV owners.

 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Again, you ignorance shines, as most testing & research shows the largest degradation of battery life is in the very early stages of life, then possible in the extreme later stages of battery life, which highly unlikely, the rest of the vehicle would last as long as the battery or motors.   

 

Unless one is really racking up the kms every year.  It would take us over 25 years to put 500k kms on any vehicle.  If we only drove necessary kms, might take 50+ years, as we only need to drive about 5k kms a year, if that.

Kind of thought the Alzheimer's remark was spot on, since you already quoted & replied to the exact same info you wanted me to post.  And less than 1 year ago.

 

Does boggle the mind how you forgot something so specific.

 

What's annoying is the people that have no interests in EVs, but spew a bunch of BS, they know nothing about.  And question and ask for verification from those that own, and know exactly what they are talking about.

 

I'm happy to be, and have been corrected occasionally, the the silliness some of you state and ask for is either complete & utter ignorance (no research) or simply trolling.

 

Seems every EV thread is about 10% information offered, and 90% information of trolls being corrected.  IMHO

 

My last 10ish post on this thread proves that, as have offered nothing new, simply pointing out and correcting the BS.

Why the need to name call? 

[Fruit Trader]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Why the need to name call? 

 

But only behind a keyboard for sure.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Fruit Trader said:

 

But only behind a keyboard for sure.

Where everyone a tough guy. 

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Why the need to name call? 

Name calling or simply pointing out the obvious 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

But only behind a keyboard for sure.

Some are that way, but I'll pretty much speak my opinion the same, in person or on the internet.  

 

Your thought is valid, as I've invited a few local keyboard warriors to pop over to the house, years past, if wanting to discuss things in person.  None took me up on the offer ... go figure 😎

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Name calling or simply pointing out the obvious 

Arrogant and ignorant, great combination! 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Arrogant and ignorant, great combination! 

HEY .... I think we're all thick skinned enough.   

 

Yes, I'll point out someone trolling or ignorant, or forgetful, as recently happened.  You think tranny & eow aren't trolls on the EV threads.  

 

Or even yourself & myself at times, though we're more reserved, and not pushing BS and misinformation.   Well except for the above post 

Edited August 25 by KhunLA

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

HEY .... I think we're all thick skinned enough.   

 

Yes, I'll point out someone trolling or ignorant, or forgetful, as recently happened.  You think tranny & eow aren't trolls on the EV threads.  

 

Or even yourself & myself at times, though we're more reserved, and not pushing BS and misinformation.   Well except for the above post 

Simply pointing out the obvious 

[KhunLA]

@Yellowtail Perfect example of BS and or misinformation ... from another thread of someone actually asking for information.

 

"Used electric vehicles are depreciating 10 times faster than their gas-powered counterparts'

 

By that silliness, same priced ICEV & BEV bought at same time, depreciation driving off the lot with the ICEV, losing 10 % value, the BEV would be completely worthless.

 

Would he be simply ignorant, trolling or purposely providing misinformation.  Any or, and the forum really doesn't need such silliness, especially when the thread is a person (OP) actually looking for some guidance.

 

... nuff said

Edited August 25 by KhunLA

[Fruit Trader]

41 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

"Used electric vehicles are depreciating 10 times faster than their gas-powered counterparts'

 

By that silliness, same priced ICEV & BEV bought at same time, depreciation driving off the lot with the ICEV, losing 10 % value, the BEV would be completely worthless.

 

I have marked part of the quote in red to show we are using time not monetary value.

A simple example would be, the EV depreciated by the same amount as the ICE but much earlier on the ownership timeline. Both EV and ICE depreciated when leaving the dealer with the EV depreciating a significant amount more.

Note, the above is a fictional example, please don't take it seriously.  
 

 

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

 

I have marked part of the quote in red to show we are using time not monetary value.

A simple example would be, the EV depreciated by the same amount as the ICE but much earlier on the ownership timeline. Both EV and ICE depreciated when leaving the dealer with the EV depreciating a significant amount more.

Note, the above is a fictional example, please don't take it seriously.  
 

 

 

However, in Thailand they don't.

 

I'm trying to buy a second hand ORA Good Cat for my youngest daughter, they are just too expensive.