ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

No, it doesn't. It says that approx 3,500 out of every 100,000 hybrid vehicles, 1,500 out of every 100,000 ICE vehicles and 25 out of every 100,000 Electric vehicles ends up in a fire during their lifetime.

 

You can't add up the numbers of fires per 100K of each type and then say that applies to 100K of all different vehicle types together - that's not a valid presentation of the numbers.

I stand corrected, so about 1.6% all vehicle, 3.5% of hybrids and for EVs its negligible, yes? 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

First off, I want to thank you for your open acknowledgement that that you were mistaken when you claimed that  5 percent of cars burned on a yearly basis. That, in fact, nothing close to that was claimed....Oh...wait a minute...

And no, it doesn't say that about about 5000 in every 100000 car eventually have a fire.

You are correct, I was wrong. 

 

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What it says is that about 3, 500 hybrid sales out of of 100,000 result in a fire. 

Or 3.5%, does this not seem incredibly high? 

 

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It says that about 1500 ICE vehicle sales out of 100000 eventually result in a fire.

Or 1.5%, seems high as well

 

14 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And about 25 EV sales out of 100000 result in a fire.

Negligible

 

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So that total would come to about 5000 fires per 300,000 vehicle sales.

I think that depends on the percentage of Hybrids sold, and that's dropping.

 

Thinking about it, that might be why hybrids fires are so high. Given that as a percentage of total sales hybrids have been steadily declining, every new one sold represents a disproportionate number of old ones, but still it seems awfully high. 

 

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As for where they got the info from

"To determine whether gas or electric cars are at a greater risk of catching fire, our team of researchers dived into data from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), and government recall data from Recalls.gov."

Yet they do not seem to present any of the data. Admittedly I did not read it, but the only data table I saw was in the headline. Did they say how many cars a year were burning and summarize why? 

 

[KhunLA]

For myself, EVs = freedom, independence and self control.

 

Especially if charging by solar.  NO dependence on any corporation or govt.  Out on e-scooter today, my usual daily run with the dog, park & surfside cruise, < 10 kms.  Then took the e-bike, over to Lotus, counter payment for online shopping.  Popped out to the house build.  Stopped at 7-11 on the return, again < 10 km runs, with plenty of battery left over.  Actually 3rd day riding, without charging, and loving the new battery.  Locally, I have no need for a petrol car.

 

Could almost do all our shopping with the e-scooter, as many do on MBs, or even add a side cart to it, and definitely do all local shopping with it.  Saw photos of someone already doing with same model I have.

 

Passed the PTT, 91/95 @ ฿46 ish per L, and for no reason but greed / price gouging IMHO

 

Oil companies / refineries making billion $$$ record profits worldwide, with govts trying to pass windfall taxes on them, to get their slice of the pie.   Not helping the little guy/gals financing the profits, and if taxed, and probably won't benefit from that either, as they'll simply waste it, like every other tax $$$.

 

Luckily, there's an EV priced for every budget.  E-motorcycles starting @ ฿37k, with removeable batteries, so no excuse on not being able to charge at home.  Simply add a side cart if needing.

 

Wet cell EV car start < ฿200k, Lithium battery cars start @ 400k (low specs),

with real full size cars starting @ ฿600k.   Same price, even cheaper than the

most popular ICE available now.

 

300 kms range, an easy reality now, with plenty of charging stations.   Though do you really want to be on the road more than 4 hours a day.

 

Today's fun in the sun rides, with wind in face ... LOVELY

 

[KhunLA]

As inexpensive as hotels are, camping in car certainly isn't a pressing issue here, unless wanting to be at a nice viewpoint maybe, in private, or travel with a dog, and last minute decision to overnight, and don't feel like finding a pet friendly guesthouse.   Camping can be fun, but unless a bit north, in a cooler season, I need my AC.

 

Something not recommended, overnight, in an ICE, obviously.  As pointed out, if you want to wake up the next day.

 

This one is just how to & comfort level.  @ 6:55 into vid, he's finally settled in, if wanting to fast forward. Comfy, even with 1 or 2 Asian women to join you ...????

 

This one a bit more detail, on battery consumption over 24 hr period, from noon to noon.  

Good info, first 6 hrs / 15%, then 5%, than another 10 ish %, and less than 35% total.  That with outside temp of 35 ish C (in shade), and overnight < 25 ish C.

 

Also points out, cool season = smog season, especially N of us, and why we usually go to all points south.  N is damn unhealthy for you, and so much for those mountain vistas, and the only reason I'd visit.

 

For the short version, specs from vid:

Edited June 13, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

And for those who keep spewing the same battery BS ... NO they, the battery packs, don't need to be replaced after the warranty expires.

 

Read this, if thinking about repeating the same silliness.  It will save your embarrassment. 

 

Click on the very top, where it states 'minutes ago'

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Some food for thought, Worth a watch.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by KhunLA

[Orinoco]

48 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

28 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Some food for thought, Worth a watch.

 

Good god man.

get a grip of yourself.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Orinoco

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Good god ma.

get a grip of yourself.

That's what the wife is for ... 

GOD should always be capitalized ... heathen ????

 

Just trying to help you out, as suspect it will be delete off the other thread.

 

And NO, I didn't report it.

Edited July 3, 2022 by KhunLA

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

28 minutes ago, Orinoco said:

Some food for thought, Worth a watch.

 

Graham Conway works for a company whose customers are in the oil and gas industry. Did you fact check his claims?

[KhunLA]

38 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Graham Conway works for a company whose customers are in the oil and gas industry. Did you fact check his claims?

NO ... I simply posted here (copy of someone else post) from where it was originally posted, as suspect it may be deleted on that thread.

 

Not my post, and I don't agree with or care what spin any anti EV'er states, as usually false, and doesn't apply to me.

 

No surprise he's a mouthpiece of a vested interest group, as they all are.

Edited July 3, 2022 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

PTT OR currently has about 190 EV stations across the country but this will be expanded to 450 by the end of the year.

 

https://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/40017322

 

 

[placeholder]

I decided to watch it.

It makes him a bad guy because he didn't disclose he has a personal interest in debunking the use of electric vehicles.

If he has anything pertinent to say, let him put it in writing where it can easily be fact checked. Did he offer any source for his information?

And by the way, there has been lots of research comparing how much greenhouse gas ICE vehicles generate over their lifetime including manufacturing vs. how much EV's generate. EV's win. And batteries are getting more efficient all the time.  And much more rapidly than he would have his audience believe.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

PTT OR currently has about 190 EV stations across the country but this will be expanded to 450 by the end of the year.

 

https://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/40017322

 

 

So will the queues.....????

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, transam said:

So will the queues.....????

I don''t understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that most charging for those who have homes, will be at home. Moreover, lots of chargers are already being installed at shopping centers. Keep in mind that you don't need a lot of real estate to set up chargers. It's not like you need room for big tanks to hold the electricity. 

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, transam said:

So will the queues.....????

Also, the biggest EV battery manufacturer in the world, announced it has a better that can charge up to 80% in 5 minutes. Not just that, but it should be able to go about 1000 kilometers on a charge

https://insideevs.com/news/594134/catl-qilin-new-high-energy-density-battery/

[transam]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Also, the biggest EV battery manufacturer in the world, announced it has a better that can charge up to 80% in 5 minutes. Not just that, but it should be able to go about 1000 kilometers on a charge

https://insideevs.com/news/594134/catl-qilin-new-high-energy-density-battery/

And cars already purchased.....?

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

And cars already purchased.....?

Isn't that the way it always is with new technologically advanced products?

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

Isn't that the way it always is with new technologically advanced products?

Well yes, but all I here from those who have EV's etc now, is how wonderful they are, but when a question is asked that puts a spanner in the works it's a load of foot stomping, excuses and MG's.........????

[seedy]

56 minutes ago, transam said:

Well yes, but all I here from those who have EV's etc now, is how wonderful they are, but when a question is asked that puts a spanner in the works it's a load of foot stomping, excuses and MG's.........????

https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/2018-revision-of-world-urbanization-prospects.html

 

UN estimates 68% of the worlds population will be urban based by 2050.

And for sure - parking lots to be built to allow all those EV's to charge cost nothing, and take up no urban real estate, which is already priced out of the reach of most buyers.

Not to mention who is going to pay for the new power plants, and running power to those free parking spaces !

The Fantasy most people live in !!! 555

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

I don''t understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that most charging for those who have homes, will be at home. Moreover, lots of chargers are already being installed at shopping centers. Keep in mind that you don't need a lot of real estate to set up chargers. It's not like you need room for big tanks to hold the electricity. 

And what about people that live in Condo's no charging facilites for them

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, transam said:

And cars already purchased.....?

As a rule early adopters always get shafted, at the same time without them companies wouldn't bother to develop or improve their products catch 22

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

And what about people that live in Condo's no charging facilites for them

 You think that's an insuperable obstacle? Are ICE vehicles useless because they can't be filled at a condo? As I pointed out, CATL has now come up with a fast charging battery. Solid states batteries which are just starting to be used in EV's will charge even faster and hold more charge. 

In Taiwan and elsewhere, motorbikes are now replacing their batteries at special service stations when the charge gets low.

Edited July 3, 2022 by placeholder

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 You think that's an insuperable obstacle? Are ICE vehicles useless because they can't be filled at a condo? As I pointed out, CATL has now come up with a fast charging battery. Solid states batteries which are just starting to be used in EV's will charge even faster and hold more charge. Are ICE vehicles useless because they can't be filled at a condo?

In Taiwan and elsewhere, motorbikes are now replacing their batteries at special service stations when the charge gets low.

I see the new battery  is not scheduled to be released until next year 

Now main concern is shortage and prices of Battery Chemicals

EV Makers’ Next Headache: Scarce Battery Chemicals, Made in China

https://www.onlineev.com/ev-makers-next-headache-scarce-battery-chemicals-made-in-china/

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

I decided to watch it.

It makes him a bad guy because he didn't disclose he has a personal interest in debunking the use of electric vehicles.

If he has anything pertinent to say, let him put it in writing where it can easily be fact checked. Did he offer any source for his information?

And by the way, there has been lots of research comparing how much greenhouse gas ICE vehicles generate over their lifetime including manufacturing vs. how much EV's generate. EV's win. And batteries are getting more efficient all the time.  And much more rapidly than he would have his audience believe.

Did you check the source of the data you agree with? 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Did you check the source of the data you agree with? 

I've already posted it in this thread. It's irrelevant whether I disagree with it or not. What is relevant is if it's peer reviewed and where it's published.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

I don''t understand why it's so difficult for some people to understand that most charging for those who have homes, will be at home. Moreover, lots of chargers are already being installed at shopping centers. Keep in mind that you don't need a lot of real estate to set up chargers. It's not like you need room for big tanks to hold the electricity. 

Some people are able to understand basic math. If it takes twenty minutes to charge an EV, and less than five minutes to fill an ICEV. then it will take a lot more real estate to process the same number of EVs in the same amount of time as it would ICEV. 

 

Yes, to set up a few chargers in shopping centers is pretty easy.

[placeholder]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Some people are able to understand basic math. If it takes twenty minutes to charge an EV, and less than five minutes to fill an ICEV. then it will take a lot more real estate to process the same number of EVs in the same amount of time as it would ICEV. 

 

Yes, to set up a few chargers in shopping centers is pretty easy.

Have you seen a charger kiosk? In size they are less than the width of a parking space. Obviously they're going to take up a lot less space than a gasoline/petrol station with a need for many tanks of fuel.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, seedy said:

https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/2018-revision-of-world-urbanization-prospects.html

 

UN estimates 68% of the worlds population will be urban based by 2050.

And for sure - parking lots to be built to allow all those EV's to charge cost nothing, and take up no urban real estate, which is already priced out of the reach of most buyers.

Not to mention who is going to pay for the new power plants, and running power to those free parking spaces !

The Fantasy most people live in !!! 555

By 2050 the cars will have solar paint and will be able to run continuously. The technology already exists, but the oil companies bought the patents and quashed it. It was in a peer peer review study I saw on Vox. 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Have you seen a charger kiosk? In size they are less than the width of a parking space. Obviously they're going to take up a lot less space than a gasoline/petrol station with a need for many tanks of fuel.

Have you seen a car? Obviously the vehicles take up the bulk of the area required to charge or fuel vehicles, yes? It's not really that complex is it? 

 

They will also still have have to provide bathrooms and whatnot. 

 

But I agree that far and away, most people using EVs as daily-drivers will charge at home so it is a non issue for them. 

 

The fuel tanks are underground aren't they? 

 

 

[burlap]

On 1/10/2022 at 7:38 AM, sezze said:

Thats rather strange , unless you are a Thai . Most people here are people living in Thailand or going holiday Thailand , and also most people birth nation is much further away then a few 100km .

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't limit our consumption , if i see many peoples electric bills over here , there's still a lot of work to be done. 

I think that 'Most people here' aren't 'here' at all.  They're bored and angry living in the UK or the US.

 

On 1/10/2022 at 8:43 AM, HarrySeaman said:

To be clear, some definitions and abbreviations.

 

ICE: Internal Combustion Engine.

HEV: Hybrid Electrical Vehicle - a non-plugin vehicle driven by a combination of an ICE and an electrical motor.  Electrical energy is provided by batteries that are recharged by the ICE recharging or regenerative braking.

PHEV: a HEV that you can plugin to recharge the batteries.  Usually these also have regenerative braking.

PEV: Plugin Electric Vehicle - a fully electrical vehicle, driven only by an electrical motor that uses electricity from batteries that are recharged by an external electrical power source.

 

The amount of pollution produced decreases as you go down the list.

 

Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

 

Which comes first, the PEV or the charging network?

 

What is needed is a commitment by governments and the auto manufactures to jointly build out a charging network and covert to manufacturing only PEVs within 5-6 years, not the half assed 2035 commitment of the USA.  An ICE vehicle, HEV, or PHEV will be practically worthless then.

 

China is basically making this 5-6 year commitment.  Unless the other countries make the commitment then Chinese EVs will be the dominant cars being sold worldwide in 5 years.

Rumor has it that Tesla is negotiating with Malaysia about building a large car factory there.  If that happens Tesla, and its Chinese competitors wild fill the country with charging stations pretty quickly