Welder purchase advice

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, farmerjo said:

So should i still change the plugs as i will have some higher end amp welding to do later on?

 

I would check the actual power draw, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to replace the plug with a 32A Commando (readily available here unlike the 63A version).

 

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

So should i still change the plugs as i will have some higher end amp welding to do later on?

What is strange is that the unit should have come with more heavy duty plug than a Schuko if it is really capable of drawing 50A.  You really should get a clamp ammeter and test the draw when you have it in operation.  Clamp on only the L and maybe get some help to read it while you weld.

[sometimewoodworker]

46 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

So how did you come to that conclusion?

The Shuko plug 

[sometimewoodworker]

36 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

The supply cables are fine as they come direct from the AVR 20 metres away.

So i have no voltage drop on the welding side.

 

That is no guarantee that they are big enough.

 

as an example (I know that this is not what you have)

a 20 metre 1mm cable would not be any good, would induce a huge voltage drop and quite likely melt if used for more than a few milliseconds/seconds.

 

a 20 metre 25mm copper cable at a 50A draw will be OK

 

probably a 35mm aluminium cable will be equally good.

 

we have a 10mm copper drop from the PEA cable to our meter that is less than 7 metres. I don’t have the final results you but our EGAT electrician suggests that an upgrade to 35mm copper drop will cure our voltage drop problems. We are just waiting on him to have a free weekend to come and play.

[sometimewoodworker]

31 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I would check the actual power draw, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to replace the plug with a 32A Commando (readily available here unlike the 63A version).

 

Don’t forget that it’s not only the plug that needs changing but the connection cable as well.

[sometimewoodworker]

42 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

So should i still change the plugs as i will have some higher end amp welding to do later on?

What thickness steel will you be welding? and what size of rods will you be using? 
 

that welder with up to 3.2mm rods on a reasonably moderate duty cycle will have no problems. If you are going to want to weld 6mm ~ 20mm  steel then you may want 4mm, 5mm, or even 6mm 

If staying under 4mm then the 2.5mm or 3.2 will be plenty big enough.

 

Note the 4mm steel is per piece thickness not combined.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Stick welding thin wall square tubing is tricky , trying to get enough penetration to get a good weld, and at the same time not to blow a hole in the stock.is difficult.  I suggest the OP  , begin with  an as thick as possible  piece  of square metal tubing, and practice, I had some experience with mig welding doing lab work back at Uni,  Even did some aluminum welding and thought I was hot sh#t  I wa surprises and embarrassed wow bad I was at Arc welding.

Also I suggest the OP watches some YouTube Tutorial videos to get back up to speed again. 

Everyone seems to love working with tubing, but in my opinion, angle is easier to weld and it is much better for structural work, particularly if it's going outside.

 

Some manufacturers (Miller is one) have free online tutorials which are good. One problem with online stuff in general is that unless you already know a good bit about something, it's hard to tell who's full of sh*t and who's not. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Stick welding thin wall square tubing is tricky , trying to get enough penetration to get a good weld, and at the same time not to blow a hole in the stock.is difficult.  I suggest the OP  , begin with  an as thick as possible  piece  of square metal tubing, and practice, I had some experience with mig welding doing lab work back at Uni,  Even did some aluminum welding and thought I was hot sh#t  I wa surprises and embarrassed wow bad I was at Arc welding.

I found that exact same problem. The difficulty is that 2.5mm is the smallest standard size available this means that on thin stock you will be burning through as soon as you look at it. It is impossible to run a continuous bead using a 2.5mm rod on 1.2mm thick tube without a very high skill level and moving extremely fast.

The often criticised dab method of Thai welders is virtually the only way to not burn through. The art of welding thin material is totally different to that of thicker stock. On thick material you can run beads all day long.

 

a very interesting video by a 30 years experience welder trying MIG and flux core welding on 1.2mm plate and 0.8mm plate he uses 0.6mm wire and CO² gas, 0.8mm wire and CO² gas, and 0.8mm flux core wire, probably no gas”. He was going to try 0.9mm flux core but found that he had no chance of welding without burning through. 
The take away is that MIG with thin wire and  CO² gas is probably as easy as you can get for thin metal. Start including flux and thicker rods and your skill required is exponential greater.

 

[farmerjo]

8 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

What thickness steel will you be welding? and what size of rods will you be using? 
 

that welder with up to 3.2mm rods on a reasonably moderate duty cycle will have no problems. If you are going to want to weld 6mm ~ 20mm  steel then you may want 4mm, 5mm, or even 6mm 

If staying under 4mm then the 2.5mm or 3.2 will be plenty big enough.

 

Note the 4mm steel is per piece thickness not combined.

The first job coming up is 15mm plate.

I only have 3.2mm rods so will just use them for now till i upgrade the plugs and cable to the main breaker.

I know the welder will do 140 amps with 3.2 rods as is. (well 140 on the screen)

[sometimewoodworker]

15 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

The first job coming up is 15mm plate.

I only have 3.2mm rods so will just use them for now till i upgrade the plugs and cable to the main breaker.

I know the welder will do 140 amps with 3.2 rods as is. (well 140 on the screen)

That is plenty thick enough (3.2mm) you will just need to run more layers of weld. 
 

I am suspicious of the ability of the welder to output the high power it claims (300A). There is probably a very good reason for them fitting the size of plug and mains cable to it.

 

Checking that the feed from the AVR is big enough (probably 24mm copper minimum) is an excellent first step.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Everyone seems to love working with tubing, but in my opinion, angle is easier to weld and it is much better for structural work, particularly if it's going outside.

 

Some manufacturers (Miller is one) have free online tutorials which are good. One problem with online stuff in general is that unless you already know a good bit about something, it's hard to tell who's full of sh*t and who's not. 

I agree, I actually lust finished  (paint is still wet ) making a stand and enclosure for the filter to my koi pond, and used left over scraps from when I did the roof, and I regret it.

For a few hundred bht I could had bought a couple of lengths of angle iron , and it would had saved me a lot of aggravation and made a better job.

Sorry for the picture it is the only one I have on my phone and I am too lazy to go get another one. 

[sirineou]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

One problem with online stuff in general is that unless you already know a good bit about something, it's hard to tell who's full of sh*t and who's not. 

I know what you mean. I was watching a video on thin square tube welding and the guy made it look easy , with a beautiful bead , and I remember thinking, how many tries that guy would had filmed until he got the one he published. 

  Next project would be to cut a swing door into  my rolling gate, It is a pain in the behind  opening and closing the gate every time I want to go outside, and if I don' t pay attention the dogs run out, and then I have to try and collect them. Pee Mon runs up the soi, and I call Pee Mom , Ma Nee, she look at me with a look in her face that says (delete) you. LOL so I start giving treats and petting the neighbors dog You should see her run back and try to elbow Boo-Long out of the way. ????

The gate.

The guilty party. LOL

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

I know what you mean. I was watching a video on thin square tube welding and the guy made it look easy , with a beautiful bead , and I remember thinking, how many tries that guy would had filmed until he got the one he published. 

  Next project would be to cut a swing door into  my rolling gate, It is a pain in the behind  opening and closing the gate every time I want to go outside, and if I don' t pay attention the dogs run out, and then I have to try and collect them. Pee Mon runs up the soi, and I call Pee Mom , Ma Nee, she look at me with a look in her face that says (delete) you. LOL so I start giving treats and petting the neighbors dog You should see her run back and try to elbow Boo-Long out of the way. ????

The gate.

 

 

I thought you were describing our house, except the 2 dogs run out and will immediately kill a local chicken & we already have the smaller person gate as we designed it in when the gate was built.

[Crossy]

I just checked our baby 140A welder.

 

27.9A max draw from 220V (6.1kVA), on a Schuko plug and cable that's not marked but doesn't look to be more than 3 x 1.5mm².

 

Never opened the standard 20A MCB on the outlet circuits, but I've not had it up to the full "140A".

 

 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I thought you were describing our house, except the 2 dogs run out and will immediately kill a local chicken & we already have the smaller person gate as we designed it in when the gate was built.

My apologies to the Op for going off topic. 

That's funny, our dogs have no love lost for chickens also .  Watch the footage from one of our security cameras. , near the end watch the chicken take out a Serra Wood fence picket in a desperate attempt to escape, Do you see the missing picket at the end?

Needless to say that or any other chicken ever came into our property again. LOL

Ouch that had to hurt. 

 

[farmerjo]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:44 AM, JSon said:

@farmerjo

 

you can get one of these clamp meters:

https://www.kovet.com/product-page/400-600a-digital-clamp-meters-ut203

 

and use it like so:

 

 

 

This afternoon i placed a clamp meter on the welder and had mrs fj reading it.

At 150 amp setting it draws up to 16 amps.

At 300 amp setting it was drawing up to 38 amps.(i only did an inch long weld)

I guess i should be happy with the result and just upgrade the plug and cables to main supply for any heat issues,any thoughts? 

[BlueScouse]

I am like the original poster. Want a welder to do simple jobs. Anybody used a fluxcore welder? Fancy just having a little bit of wire out instead of a 10 inch rod waving around.

Another question. Why do the welding machines have a voltage and amp knob? All the ones I have seen at work ie small Unitor, have just a kknob for adjusting amps.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, BlueScouse said:

I am like the original poster. Want a welder to do simple jobs. Anybody used a fluxcore welder? Fancy just having a little bit of wire out instead of a 10 inch rod waving around.

Another question. Why do the welding machines have a voltage and amp knob? All the ones I have seen at work ie small Unitor, have just a kknob for adjusting amps.

A dedicated flux-core (or MIG) welder only needs controls for wire speed and voltage. 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

[BlueScouse]

Are they easier to use than a normal stick welder. I have the idea of letting the wife have a go.

[sometimewoodworker]

56 minutes ago, BlueScouse said:

Are they easier to use than a normal stick welder. I have the idea of letting the wife have a go.

Yes they are, but easier does not equal easy

[Damrongsak]

On 1/16/2022 at 3:24 AM, jvs said:

...2013 is a pretty all round rod for general work.

On 1/16/2022 at 6:25 AM, bbko said:

2013? Typo?  I thought 6013 was be best for general work.

Here in the U.S.,  E6013 is considered a rod for thin gauge metal (and beginners).  It doesn't penetrate much.  Not used for structural purposes.  HOWEVER, I've seen a welder in England or Ireland who does phenomenal multi-pass welds on critical large pipes using what he said was 6013.  I suspect that the 6013 designation in some countries is a bit different.

 

6013 can be very nice, especially if run on AC for a balance between penetration and speed.  Check out this sample ticket my son did years back while first learning to weld at community college.  He said it was the fastest and easiest he ever did,  just stick the rod in there and wipe down (vertical down weld - AC at 135 amps). I can't even do a bead with a caulking gun that looks that good.  But note that the bead is quite concave. 

 

Some of these cheap DC-only inverter welders don't do well at all with cellulosic rods like E6010.  A very few do. 

 

 

MIG/MAG welders can be easy to run (if they aren't misbehaving and you dial them in).  But you can get a pretty bead that doesn't have sufficient penetration.  I don't weld but learned a lot from my kid and trying to keep up.  That and buying about 8 welders over the years.  Most are old-school, but do have a few inverters. 

 

[Yellowtail]

6013 is  very popular all-position rod. You can get better rods for specific applications, but if you only want to inventory one rod, 6013 is tough to beat. 

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

The only stick sold locally is what they label "RB-26".  Does the job but inconsistent in burning.  Easily flares out and punches a hole and then can be "normal" for a while.

[sometimewoodworker]

For a beginner getting a pack of 1.6mm, a pack of 2mm as well as the standard 2.6mm will allow for rather less burn through on the commonly available steel stock these are available on Lazada if, as is usual, your local shops don’t have them