Are we just going to have to live with unvaccinated people across Thailand?

[ThLT]

30 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Together with its increased transmissibility, vaccine evasion ability and the unvaccinated the sheer numbers of Omicron cases admitted to hospitals has been more than any other wave in many countries

Do you have sources for all of those four or so claims? I'll be waiting. 

 

By the way, I never claimed it wasn't affecting under 50's. You're making stuff up. I said the risk of hospitalizations for under 50—as in young healthy adults, with no comorbidities—was extremely low. You're just taking a small general statement I wrote hastily and making a witch-hunt out of it. Even though I corrected myself and already provided sources.

 

30 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Omicron wave was brutal on kids; hospitalization rates 4X higher than delta’s

Omicron Wave Leads to New Highs of Hospitalized Children Who Have Covid-19

Omicron drives record cases of child Covid hospitalisation

Covid-19: Omicron variant is linked to steep rise in hospital admissions of very young children

Well, yeah, using words like "4x higher," "brutal," "new highs," and "record cases" is mostly just sensationalist journalism—considering children were considerably resistant to earlier variants. Most children were/are also unvaccinated.
 

And even if you take into account children, they are still counted in the rate of hospitalizations of Omicron, which is half of that of Delta, whether vaccinated or not (with South Africa having a 75% unvaccinated rate at the time):

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThLT

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

17 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Well, yeah, using words like "4x higher," "brutal," "new highs," and "record cases" is mostly just sensationalist journalism

 

Not so in the least. Perhaps you need to check with the U.S. CDC:

 

Omicron wave was brutal on kids; hospitalization rates 4X higher than delta’s

 

"Despite being widely seen as mild, the omicron coronavirus variant has been brutal on children and adolescents—particularly babies and toddlers, who are still ineligible for vaccination.

 

According to a study published Tuesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the peak rate of pediatric hospitalizations during the recent omicron surge was four times higher than the peak seen during delta's wave last fall. And the largest increase was seen in children ages 0 to 4, who had a peak hospitalization rate five times higher than that seen amid delta's wave.

...

During the omicron wave, weekly pediatric hospitalizations peaked at 7.1 per 100,000 children, which is about four times higher than delta's peak rate of 1.8 per 100,000.

 

Peak hospitalization rates of children ages 0 to 4 years during the omicron wave were more than five times higher, with about 15.6 hospitalizations per 100,000 children, compared with delta's peak in that age group of 2.9 per 100,000.

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/02/omicron-wave-was-brutal-on-kids-hospitalization-rates-4x-higher-than-deltas/

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7107e4.htm?s_cid=mm7107e4_w

 

And direct from the CDC study:

 

"Coinciding with increased circulation of the Omicron variant, COVID-19–associated hospitalization rates among children and adolescents aged 0–17 years increased rapidly in late December 2021, especially among children aged 0–4 years who are not yet eligible for vaccination.

 

Throughout the periods of Delta and Omicron predominance, hospitalization rates remained lower among fully vaccinated adolescents aged 12–17 years than among unvaccinated adolescents."

 

AND

 

"The Omicron variant peak (7.1 per 100,000) was four times that of the Delta variant peak (1.8), with the largest increase observed among children aged 0–4 years.^¶ During December 2021, the monthly hospitalization rate among unvaccinated adolescents aged 12–17 years (23.5) was six times that among fully vaccinated adolescents (3.8)."

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ThLT]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Not so in the least:

7.1 per 100,000 children as opposed to 1.8 per 100,000 hospitalizations.

 

Not deaths. Hospitalizations. 

Yeah, definitely "brutal." ????

 

17,000 teenagers being killed on the road every single year? No one here bats an eye. All is fine.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/30369535

[Sametboy2019]

Using US stats to prove anything is probably not pertinent to other countries especially in kids.

The US has some of the unhealthiest people alive and any illness will be debilitating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, ThLT said:

7.1 per 100,000 children as opposed to 1.8 per 100,000 hospitalizations.

 

Not deaths. Hospitalizations. 

Yeah, definitely "brutal.

 The prior poster you were responding to above had posted about youngster COVID hospitalizations, and that's the post you responded to with your unfounded "sensationalism" claims.  His comments didn't touch on COVID deaths at all... And clearly, his info was correct and an accurate rendering of the facts.

 

Unfortunately, Thailand happens to have one of the highest road fatality rates in the world, which is going to make any such comparatives look small. But not so much in other places such as the U.S.

 

"COVID-19 was among the top 7 leading causes of death for all groups over age 5 in December 2021. In December 2021, COVID-19 ranked as the number 1 cause of death for people age 45-54, number 2 for people ages 35-44 and 55-64, and number 3 for people ages 25-34 and over 65.

 

And, number 4 for 15 to 24 year olds:

 

 

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid-19-leading-cause-of-death-ranking/

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Well, yeah, using words like "4x higher," "brutal," "new highs," and "record cases" is mostly just sensationalist journalism—considering children were considerably resistant to earlier variants. Most children were/are also unvaccinated.

I provided 4 links to substantiate my specific claims including one from the British Medical Journal and your take away from them was  ^^^^^^

 

I can only now assume you are trolling. What point is it you are actually trying to make?

[ThLT]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I provided 4 links to substantiate my specific claims including one from the British Medical Journal

Your sources were solely about children hospitalization due to COVID.

I'm still waiting for sources regarding your four or so following claims:

 

53 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Together with its increased transmissibility, vaccine evasion ability and the unvaccinated the sheer numbers of Omicron cases admitted to hospitals has been more than any other wave in many countries

[onthedarkside]

A post with unsourced and unsubstantiated claims has been removed.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

Your sources were solely about children hospitalization due to COVID.

I'm still waiting for sources regarding your four or so following claims:

 

Children do actually happen to be under 50.

 

Tell me, why do you think Omicron has overtaken all variants in the world if it was not more transmissible?

 

Anyway here's some material you may want to start on. However you need to read past the headlines if you want to actually digest the actual content.

 

transmissibility

Omicron COVID variant 105% more transmissible than Delta, French scientists find

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/01/07/omicron-covid-variant-105-more-transmissible-than-delta-french-scientists-find

 

However the original Omicron is now being ovetaken by the even more transmissable BA.2

 

Sudden rise of more transmissible form of Omicron catches scientists by surprise

https://www.science.org/content/article/sudden-rise-more-transmissible-form-omicron-catches-scientists-surprise

 

 vaccine evasion

Omicron extensively but incompletely escapes Pfizer BNT162b2 neutralization

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04387-1

 

unvaccinated hospital status

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

 

I'll ask you one more time, what point is it your really trying to make? A reasoned and substantiated reply would be appreciated.

 

[onthedarkside]

The discussion here has strayed well beyond the topic of the thread, which was Thailand focused. So let's try to refocus on the actual topic of the thread.

 

[Bkk Brian]

In Thailand real hospital covid beds are rising rapidly, more so than at any other point in the pandemic, in the middle of the Delta wave in Aug 21, Thailand had 61k+ cases being treated in hospitals, this does not include field hospitals, community care centers or hospitels.

 

Todays recorded covid hospital bed count is just over 77k, again not including other accommodation including home isolation which was not allowed then for mild or asymptomatic cases.

 

It would be interesting to have the data on the vaccination status considering the different brands of vaccine that have been used here and the lesser amount of boosters administered.

 

EDIT. Source

 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[ThLT]

18,883 new confirmed cases per day

77,071 total current hospital patients

89,326 total current community isolation patients

And 32 deaths per day

 

The number of daily deaths are currently almost at its lowest since March 2021—although it seems like it's picking up.

 

https://ddc.moph.go.th/covid19-dashboard/

 

In 2021-09, when the rate of daily deaths was 250 deaths per day, the daily infections were at 15,000 per day.

 

So: 

- 19,000 daily cases of Omicron = 32 daily deaths = 0.17% death rate of confirmed cases

- 15,000 daily cases of Delta = 250 daily deaths = 1.67% death rate of confirmed cases

 

Being a rate (therefore regardless of number of cases) of death of almost 10x lower for Omicron.

 

And the deaths based on age groups (per 1 million)—although this is for the whole pandemic:

 

[coolcarer]

14 minutes ago, ThLT said:

18,883 new confirmed cases per day

77,071 total current hospital patients

89,326 total current community isolation patients

And 32 deaths per day

 

The number of daily deaths are currently almost at its lowest since March 2021—although it seems like it's picking up.

 

https://ddc.moph.go.th/covid19-dashboard/

 

In 2021-09, when the rate of daily deaths was 250 deaths per day, the daily infections were at 15,000 per day.

 

So: 

- 19,000 daily cases of Omicron = 32 daily deaths = 0.17% death rate of confirmed cases

- 15,000 daily cases of Delta = 250 daily deaths = 1.67% death rate of confirmed cases

 

Being a rate (therefore regardless of number of cases) of death of almost 10x lower for Omicron.

 

And the deaths based on age groups (per 1 million)—although this is for the whole pandemic:

 

How does that compare with the all important vaccine administration. What were the vaccine levels of the population in the delta wave and those in the present Omicron wave. Knowing that vaccinations protect up to 90% death along with around 70-80% hospitalization. 
 

They appear to be doing a tremendous job, along with the help of Omicron being a bit milder. It’s a pity those unvaccinated left do not see how well they protect.

[ThLT]

19 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

How does that compare with the all important vaccine administration. What were the vaccine levels of the population in the delta wave and those in the present Omicron wave. Knowing that vaccinations protect up to 90% death along with around 70-80% hospitalization. 
 

They appear to be doing a tremendous job, along with the help of Omicron being a bit milder. It’s a pity those unvaccinated left do not see how well they protect.

Sure. Vaccinations are doing a serious part in keeping those serious cases and deaths down. But exactly like you say, with such high vaccination numbers—70.8% fully vaccinated, 27.5% boosted—are the unvaccinated to be blamed, like the current topic of the OP?

 

It would rather be interesting to see number of unvaccinated deaths and hospitalizations vs. vaccinated, also based on age.

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThLT

[Don Dunkelblum]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:30 AM, RandiRona said:

Yes, people have right to decide what is right for them. I am not against vaccination and double vaccinated but I decide what I take and what I wont. Please respect other people decision to not take it for whatever reason. They are still human.

No, people have no right to decide what is right for them. It starts with an obligatory polio vaccination before you go to elementary school.

 

When you are not vaccinated whatever, it is easier to infect other people.

 

Having 'the right to decide' opinion is simpleminded to say the least.

[ThLT]

40 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Knowing that vaccinations protect up to 90% death along with around 70-80% hospitalization. 

Much lower than that for Omicron—especially considering Thailand has used mostly Sinovac (37%) and AstraZeneca (71%):

 

 

https://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

 

 (Boosted is higher—although the page does say booster data is included—but even if it weren't, the booster vaccination rate is still at 27.5% in Thailand as of now.)

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThLT

[coolcarer]

16 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Sure. Vaccinations are doing a serious part in keeping those serious cases and deaths down. But exactly like you say, with such high vaccination numbers—70.8% fully vaccinated, 27.5% boosted—are the unvaccinated to be blamed, like the current topic of the OP?

 

It would rather be interesting to see number of unvaccinated deaths and hospitalizations vs. vaccinated, also based on age.

Impossible to say without the relevant data. The US has a similar although slightly lower vaccination coverage but their hospital admissions are heavily weighted and strained with the non vaxxed. That is with the most effective vaccines.

 

Thailand on the other hand has had a larger mix of varying degree effective vaccines, unless that was broken down into VE against hospitalization then the results could be skewed. 
 

I’m only referring here to VE for hospitalizations not deaths or serious cases. 

[ThLT]

1 minute ago, coolcarer said:

The US has a similar although slightly lower vaccination coverage but their hospital admissions are heavily weighted and strained with the non vaxxed.

Mind posting a source for your claim? You keeping making large claims, with zero sources.

[coolcarer]

10 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Mind posting a source for your claim? You keeping making large claims, with zero sources.

US unvaxxed vs vaxxed hospital data https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

 

US vs Thailand vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

 

I was assuming that was well known by posters on here

 

 

[coolcarer]

15 hours ago, ThLT said:

 

Omicron seeks out the unvaccinated and delivers its worst to them. Those dying are nearly all unvaxxed, same as those in hospital. Logic

[onthedarkside]

Two posts above have been removed, one for linking to a non-credible "questionable source" website, and the other for providing a graphic without the required weblink to the source material.

 

[ThLT]

It's interesting to see how the US has similar vaccination rates—and a 4.7x higher population—but a monumental higher level of COVID deaths than Thailand. Like 100x more in some instances (20x higher rate, when adjusted for population).

 

 

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/thailand

[Meat Pie 47]

6 hours ago, ThLT said:

7.1 per 100,000 children as opposed to 1.8 per 100,000 hospitalizations.

 

Not deaths. Hospitalizations. 

Yeah, definitely "brutal." ????

 

17,000 teenagers being killed on the road every single year? No one here bats an eye. All is fine.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/30369535

What  has Thailand death toll got to do with covid not everybody lives in Thailand

Edited February 21, 2022 by Meat Pie 47

[ThLT]

56 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Omicron seeks out the unvaccinated and delivers its worst to them. Those dying are nearly all unvaxxed

Omicron doesn't "seek out the unvaccinated," nor does it do "its worst to them."  COVID is a virus—a non-living organism, let alone having conscious thought.

Portugal has a 90.2% fully vaccinated population, and 58.7% boosted, and it still had 300 deaths in the last week—a rate of 43 deaths per day.

 

And 102,129 new cases.

 

The portion of unvaccinated is 6.4%—which with a population of 10 million—equates to 64,000 people in total. Unless unvaccinated people are cloning themselves... then that means: Half of cases would be vaccinated (but it's probably much higher, considering the virus is ploughing through 9.36 million people, rather than simply 64,000). 

 

So no, COVID doesn't seek out the unvaccinated.

 

John Hopkins University: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/portugal

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThLT

[ThLT]

15 hours ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

What  has Thailand death toll got to do with covid not everybody lives in Thailand

This thread—sub-forum, and most of this forum—is about Thailand.

[coolcarer]

20 minutes ago, ThLT said:

It's interesting to see how the US has similar vaccination rates—and a 4.7x higher population—but a monumental higher level of COVID deaths than Thailand. Like 100x more in some instances (20x higher rate, when adjusted for population).

 

 

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/thailand

For making country comparisons there is a seperate chart in your link that gives deaths per million which is obviously more relevant than the one you have posted which does not take into account the huge discrepancy in population figures

 

 

 

[ThLT]

8 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

For making country comparisons there is a seperate chart in your link that gives deaths per million which is obviously more relevant than the one you have posted which does not take into account the huge discrepancy in population figures

I did take into account the discrepancy in population—which is 4.71. And it doesn't change anything much—the only difference is the y-axis that changes. Like I said, the per million rate of deaths, is 20x as high in the US than in Thailand in some instances.

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/united-states?country=USA~THA

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by ThLT

[coolcarer]

9 minutes ago, ThLT said:

I did take into account the discrepancy in population—which is 4.71. And it doesn't change anything much—the only difference is the y-axis that changes. Like I said, the per million rate of deaths, is 20x as high in the US than in Thailand in some instances.

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/united-states?country=USA~THA

 

Just depends if you want to use the correct chart or not. No problem, Off now to tell an unvaccinated mate he needs to watch out for those sneaky little airborne droplets that are after him. Goodnight. 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, ThLT said:

It's interesting to see how the US has similar vaccination rates—and a 4.7x higher population—but a monumental higher level of COVID deaths than Thailand. Like 100x more in some instances (20x higher rate, when adjusted for population).

 

 

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/thailand

The US did not lock down to the degree Thailand did and mask mandates were never imposed nationally and rarely enforced when imposed locally.

[ukrules]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:23 AM, webfact said:

should we risk letting people like Novak Djokovic continue to stick to his principles of not being vaccinated

The risk is not from the unvaccinated, it's from the infected.

 

There are massive numbers of infected people in Thailand and you are living and mixing with them every time you walk outside your door.