Ownership of land vs house

[NorthernRyland]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

As long as you have the usufruct, nobody can sell / transfer the land / house.  If you want 50%, then agree to void at sale, for pre determined price, mutually agreed upon at divorce.  Quite simple.

but the land is owned by the person you leased to so how do you void anything here? I would think you would need the owner to transfer the lease, which they may not be willing to do.

 

I'm gonna watch some videos on YouTube and learn more about this.

 

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Something to consider, dependent on your age, if 50, as I'm sensing a driving force to be married for you, is ease to stay, getting marriage visa, with the 400k lump in bank.  Instead, rent, stick 800k lump in bank, instead of spending $60k / ฿2 m baht on land / house, and see how things go in a year or 2.

 

We're only 40 now and just getting married but signed the paperwork already so too late for that. ????  Whatever happens now I think any land/house is marital property. 

 

Just to be clear I'm not trying to have 100% control and live alone in Thailand even though this is obviously the safest way to go. I was dead broke for the first 6 years or so I was living with her and we got along good then also. Just want to make sure I'm doing my due diligence.

[NorthernRyland]

38 minutes ago, BTB1977 said:

Many friends of mine built houses with their loving thai wife. Most of them were driven out of their homes by unbearable living situations after a few years. Family moved in ( sons, daughters ,brothers sisters or parents) all unable to work and your wife demanding you support them too.

That's the nightmare situation. I've been driven out my noise (temple, loud speaker in the morning, chickens) which is more worrisome than losing the house in the divorce honestly. ????

 

My wife is not the easiest women to deal with but luckily she's not close to her family at all, has no prior children or marriage and barely involves me with anything personal in her families affairs. I couldn't cope otherwise!

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

but the land is owned by the person you leased to so how do you void anything here? I would think you would need the owner to transfer the lease, which they may not be willing to do.

Do you plan on building a house on 'leased' land, not in wife's name ?  If reading right, that is something I would never do.

 

Not about 100% control of 'relationship', but about finances you're bringing into.  If it goes south, the law & simply being fair, then yes 50 / 50 of equity built since marriage on divorce.  Anyone who builds a life with me and puts up with me deserves half or more of what we've managed to acquire.

 

Being you've been together in poorer times, that's a major plus, and puts aside many of the anti-Thai relationship assumptions being floated.

 

So at this point, since doing paperwork at amphur office, you ARE married, simply didn't have the wedding ceremony.  Good Luck

 

Good news, getting divorced at the amphur office is even easier, aside from division of assets, if uncontested.????

 

Get the usufruct on 'your' (as a couple) land & house, simply for your protection, Buddha forbid, she should happen to die before you.

Edited March 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thanks for the very detailed response, which is honestly a little over my head so I guess I need to speak with a lawyer. ????

 

30 year lease sounds good so long as I can sell the house at some point, but how does that work if you don't own the land under the house?. The problem with the wife owning the house is that of course in case of a divorce it's not even guaranteed to get back 50% of the value. Giving a women 50% is already more than generous so I think that's a fair thing to try to achieve.

An experienced real-estate law firm - preferably with a foreign solicitor - is always extremely advisable when "investing" in property in Thailand.

 

The website Samui For Sale has detailed information about superfices, lease rules, explanation of title deeds, family laws and much more, which might help you a lot to look at. There are also other websites with lots of information, but this one seems to be one of the best.

 

A lease agreement can be made so you can transfer the contract to third party and thereby sell the building you own including the remaining part of the lease period's 30 years.

 

If you wish to be fully independant as house owner, you can establish a Thai company limited that owns the land and lease or rent out the land to you - the company should preferable have some additional activities and not just being a shell land owner for one of it's shareholders - where you are owner of the building(s). It a little more costly solution but might be a lot cheaper than loosing too much - or even everything - in a worst case divorce-scenario. If you pay for all you might even be able to have your shares classifies as "separate property", if your wife will accept and sign for that; or you can own 49% of the shares, and give your wife 48%, and a third party 3% preferred shares without voting rights, but with a guaranteed yearly dividend of for example 4% instead; in that way 49% ordinary shares can be in control of the company. If the property is sold to a foreigner the company limited-method can furthermore have benefits, as the property is not transferred to a new owner, only the shares of a company limited are traded...????

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Sorry I'm getting lost with all these details, please bare with me. ???? 

 

My only real goal is hopefully recoup 50% of the value invested in case of divorce (same as would happen in the US). How does the usufruct help to achieve this? If there is a lease on the land I don't see how this can be sold, but maybe you're saying this doesn't matter so much because the property isn't tied to the marriage?

Not all land offices accept a usufruct servitude given to a foreigner; don't forget that usufruct is an ancient Roman servitude to permit someone to harvest the fruits of a land, more correctly in legal terms expressed as using and enjoying the fruits or profits of something belonging to another.

 

Furthermore, when already married a usufruct agreement can be declared void in case of divorce if the usufruct is granted by the wife; re. my earlier comments about have servitudes declared before transfer of title deed.

 

Furthermore - and I'm sorry to mention it, it's general - a usufruct is given to a specific person only and cannot be transferred. A usufrcut runs for an agreed number of years up to a maximum of 30 years, or the usufruct runs for life of the beneficial. In my view it's important that one shall always be worth more alive than dead in Thailand.

 

13 hours ago, KhunLA said:

As long as you have the usufruct, nobody can sell / transfer the land / house.  If you want 50%, then agree to void at sale, for pre determined price, mutually agreed upon at divorce.  Quite simple.

To my knowledge that is unfortunately not correct, land can be both sold and transferred, but the usufruct - and other similar servitudes like superficies and habitation rights, and also a lease agreement - is still valid. The value of the land might however be lower in case of a superfices or habitation servitude - the are no income from these rights - wherefore it's more difficulty to sell the land.

????

[KhunLA]

16 minutes ago, khunPer said:

 A usufrcut runs for an agreed number of years up to a maximum of 30 years, or the usufruct runs for life of the beneficial.

 

To my knowledge that is unfortunately not correct, land can be both sold and transferred, but the usufruct -

No, they can't be sold.  I had to cancel my usufruct on 5 different parcels of land, so my wife could sell them.  2 seperate rai lots the house sat on, 1 rai adjacent, same buyer bought, and 2 adjacent separate rais, another buyer bought.   Without me, none could be sold / transferred. (Udon Thani Land Office)

 

My usufructs were / is (still have 1 @ UT)  for 'LIFE'.

Have one @ PKK for life

MY experiences with usufruct is ALL 1st Hand

Edited March 20, 2022 by KhunLA

[crazykopite]

When I moved to Thailand back in 2005 I came with the attitude that money I invested could be lost I still have that attitude since 2005 I’ve owned 3 properties by way of Company ownerships . I’ve sold 1 property with no issues and the other 2 I still have . I live on my own non of my family would ever move to Thailand do I worry what happens to the properties when the man upstairs calls me home no I’m not but as I write I have no intentions of leaving this earth so I hope at 71 I’m going to be blessed with another 10 years or so only time will tell . When your dead you don’t know your dead and there’s certainly no pockets in shrouds . One thing I do know is that had I rented the property I own I would have paid a lot more had I rented it from someone else so it’s a win win situation my grandson and granddaughter will inherit the company what they do with it would be up to them but due to its location it’s a highly desirable rental meaning they could hand it to a reputable agent to rent it out on there behalf . Finally if your thinking about divorce before you even get married then I strongly suggest you stick to renting a property 

[Harveyboy]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:24 AM, NorthernRyland said:

No I've been here living with her 10 months per year since I go back to Colorado in the summer while my parents are still alive and well. I've been surviving on long term tourists visas for years but as many know that's basically over at this point. COVID really sealed the deal also since I got stuck in CO for 12 months because I didn't have a proper visa.

 

This is the first time hearing about usurfructs so I need to look into that. What does that get you?

 

I've just heard of so many nasty divorces I'm paranoid now. Basically everyone I knew growing up got divorced (my parents also) and then endless stories from expats in Thailand with Western wives then finally with marriages to Thai women over 10 years their junior which fall apart (which isn't shocking honestly).

 

I'm gonna have to buy her dad some gold something for 60k baht but she says my bank statement for the 400k in the bank will be good enough. Getting off easy I guess? The wedding itself plus a ring is adding up to over 100k now which I'm not happy about but it could be worse. Honestly a big wedding is foolish waste of money if you ask me.

i gave the mother in law 200.000 sin sot she paid for the wedding everything for 150 people  that suited me .. i put 3.000.000 baht on the rug so everyone could see they did the old routine of dad walking away with it thai joke at weddings..all the neighbors saw what a fine Farang i was ..after the reception back to Bangkok bank put it back in that was years ago its still there high interest account ..job done everyone happy..its all a show .Face is very important to older thais

[khunPer]

48 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

No, they can't be sold.  I had to cancel my usufruct on 5 different parcels of land, so my wife could sell them.  2 seperate rai lots the house sat on, 1 rai adjacent, same buyer bought, and 2 adjacent separate rais, another buyer bought.   Without me, none could be sold / transferred. (Udon Thani Land Office)

 

My usufructs were / is (still have 1 @ UT)  for 'LIFE'.

Have one @ PKK for life

MY experiences with usufruct is ALL 1st Hand

Land with Usufruct servitude can be sold...

Quote

• The usufruct does not prevent sale of the property by the owner, but sale of the property does not terminate the usufruct nor the rights of the usufructuary. Usufruct is not a contract right but a real (property) right and as a real right usufruct is a burden on the property itself (any new owner automatically takes the property subject to/ including the right right of usufruct);

(Source link HERE)

-but most people would not at all be interested in buying a land with a usufruct servitude, which might be the real reasonthat you needed to cancell the usufruct servitude before your wife could sell the land.

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by khunPer

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Land with Usufruct servitude can be sold...

(Source link HERE)

-but most people would not at all be interested in buying a land with a usufruct servitude, which might be the real reasonthat you needed to cancell the usufruct servitude before your wife could sell the land.

 

When I read that in Thai, and not on a farang lawyer site, soliciting, I may believe it.  I was 45 when issued usufruct for life, so not sure about the 30 yr rule, as do expect to live longer than 75.  As I stated, at Udon Thani office, and as we all know, the only consistent thing in Thailand, is the inconsistency.  Matter of fact, there was a period there, @ UT , they weren't even issuing usufructs, and they, after complaints higher up, started again.  Welcome to Thailand.

 

I've noticed more than a few things wrong on 'lawyer sites', and won't mention them, as surely the post will be deleted. 

 

If it's not in Thai, from Thai Law, I ignore it.  Go to the source or who is going to issue something from them to me, as that's the person I want to talk to.  Nobody else.

 

When I hear, read, someone say, 'you need a lawyer' ... that's my cue to do it myself.

[NorthernRyland]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Do you plan on building a house on 'leased' land, not in wife's name ?  If reading right, that is something I would never do.

I thought the usufruct was essentially a lease! If you're divorced and she owns the land you're saying you can still occupy it? That's ok I guess but it would be nice to just sell the property so there can be a clean split.

 

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Not about 100% control of 'relationship', but about finances you're bringing into.  If it goes south, the law & simply being fair, then yes 50 / 50 of equity built since marriage on divorce.  Anyone who builds a life with me and puts up with me deserves half or more of what we've managed to acquire.

Anything I do here will be 100% my money. Yeah, 50% is fair enough for me but the problem is we can't even guarantee that here, hence why I brought this up. If the property can't be sold in some timely manor I think I read it defaults to the rightful owner, unlike two Thais who could sit on it for as long as they want since it really is joint property.

 

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Being you've been together in poorer times, that's a major plus, and puts aside many of the anti-Thai relationship assumptions being floated.

 

So at this point, since doing paperwork at amphur office, you ARE married, simply didn't have the wedding ceremony.  Good Luck

Thank you! I talked to her about this today and she insists if anything happens it will be split 50%, which is nice and I'm not doubting her sincerity but everyone needs to understand no one gets married with plans to divorce and yet it still happens so we must have contingency plans in place. To her credit she already says 50% is already too generous since it's 0% her money but who knows what she says in the future after some nasty fight or something. ????

[NorthernRyland]

7 hours ago, crazykopite said:

Finally if your thinking about divorce before you even get married then I strongly suggest you stick to renting a property 

Everyone is saying this (including her!) but I don't understand what the issue is. No one plans to get divorced but it happens all the time so shouldn't we at least strive to get the most basic legal protections? It's simply the case that we have a disadvantage with the law here so it's prudent to try to reclaim some of it back, is it not?

[NorthernRyland]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

No, they can't be sold.  I had to cancel my usufruct on 5 different parcels of land, so my wife could sell them.

So the property is in her name but she couldn't sell without your permission? That sounds like a good bargaining chip in the case of divorce if she decided to renege on the promise to sell and split the profits 50/50.

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

When I read that in Thai, and not on a farang lawyer site, soliciting, I may believe it.  I was 45 when issued usufruct for life, so not sure about the 30 yr rule, as do expect to live longer than 75.

You can get usufruct for a limited time, but no longer than 30 years, or you can be granted usufruct for your life. It seems like you haven't read enough about the usufruct servitude.

Quote

Section 1418. If no time limit, Usufruct is presumed to be Lifetime.

A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for the life of the usufructuary. If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usufructuary.

The law is HERE - you can go forward and backwards using the links at bottom of the page, the section 1387-1401 with "servitudes" is valid for all, including usufruct, and section 1403 sets the 30-years limit, re. section 1430 - but to express it the Thai way of thinking "up to you" if you don't believe what lawyers are saying, even they all say the same; nothing stops a land with a usufruct servitude to be both transferred or sold, apart from there might not be buyers as servitudes follow the land...????

[473geo]

Seen the safety first guys crash and burn, I came to Thailand to relax, one contribution to that is knowing major costs are met.

So if I choose to leave not really bothered about taking more than a rucksack, kids will have a home and subsistence living option if they choose, all good ????

Edited March 21, 2022 by 473geo

[BritManToo]

15 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

Thank you! I talked to her about this today and she insists if anything happens it will be split 50%, which is nice and I'm not doubting her sincerity but everyone needs to understand no one gets married with plans to divorce and yet it still happens so we must have contingency plans in place. To her credit she already says 50% is already too generous since it's 0% her money but who knows what she says in the future after some nasty fight or something. ????

50% of marriages end in divorce, every woman promises a fair split at the end, almost all change their minds. Only a fool doesn't consider the failure rates and the consequences.

 

You are 100% right to plan for YOUR future and YOUR assets.

There are only 2 ways to do that anywhere in the world.

1. Get a 90% mortgage in her name.

2. rent.

 

Ursufruct/Lease/land and house split, just means they need to kill you to keep it all, which many Thais are happy to do, given a reasonable chance of getting away with it.

Edited March 21, 2022 by BritManToo

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

50% of marriages end in divorce

I'm batting 250 ... 1 for 4 ... ????

 

It's all about choices .... oh c r a p 

... so ... who needs relationship advice ????

[Kalasin Jo]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:16 AM, KhunLA said:

Winning a judgement is easier than receiving compensation.

The same the world over. Enforcement can be costly, very time consuming and often with limited or zero results. Lawyers know this. The average member of the public thinks it's all done and dusted getting the judgement. Only pick a legal battle, however good the case, if you know your opponent has the means to pay on a judgement.

[Kalasin Jo]

On 3/19/2022 at 12:08 PM, Doctor Tom said:

there is, in modern Thailand, not the Thailand of the 1950s, so buy her one.  She will expect it,  quite rightly. 

Ah rings, engagement and wedding, and the wearing of them in Thailand. I think not necessary except perhaps with hi so. We dispensed with an engagement ring as there was no formal or informal engagement, no Buddhist ceremonies as we had both been married before. And no sin sod. I had prepared the paperwork, affirmation of freedom to marry from the Embassy etc, so there was forethought on my part, we just had a civil ceremony, with witnesses off the street, a few days after I said let's do it. We did each have gold wedding rings, bought by me. That's what we do in the West isn't it? She was very pleased I was wearing one!! About a year later whilst I was absent with leave she sold hers. Not a word until I returned and asked where it was. Needed cash she said. So I sold mine too. She didn't bat an eyelid. Since then, several years now, neither of us have a wedding ring. Doesn't seem to matter to anyone at all.

In my experience Thais, whilst obsessed with the possession and display of gold rings and jewellery as a symbol of wealth and face will sell it without a qualm as soon as they need cash. So do not buy it for your beloved believing she will see it ( as you do) as symbol of your love for her ( as we do in our culture) nor for any family member as a gesture of commitment. There will be no heartache or sadness over walking in to a goldshop to sell it if needs must. You won't be asked if that's ok. It's the first thing to go, not the last. It's just a readily convertible asset to them. Bought in good times, sold in bad.

 

Oh and with the world as it is today, the price of gold here and I presume elsewhere is eye wateringly high if your buying.