Opinion: American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

[placnx]

23 hours ago, puck2 said:

 

 

Don't forget history, especially the Chinese one, connected to Thailand.

 

From 1927 until 1949 there was the civil war in China. Result, Mao was the new communist leader/dictator. It was a hard time in this war for the population in China. Losing homes, life of family members, starvation etc. And even under Mao there have been disasters like starvation etc.  Result, many fled to countries in SE Aisa including Thailand. If you ask your family, friends, neighbors, some or many of them have people with a Chinese origin. I.e. the grandmother of my wife fled China because of war fighting, hunger etc. and moved to Thailand.

 

They all have been unvoluntarily influenced by the culture of their (Chinese) families. Although with a poor and awful life in their mother country, in their hearts they have been Chinese. I can confirm this feelings and behavior. Born during Hitler's dictatorship, at the end of WW II, expelled by the Russians, we didn't change our feeling for our home country.

 

The same happened to the Chinese people here in Thailand. That's one important reason why they feel more connected to China('s dictatorship) than to the Western countries. It's not an issue of brain, but of the origin of the family. You will find this confirmed in the USA.

 

Therefore it's not „the Western arrogance“,but family history, why here is a Chinese influence,

Yes, and some brought their politics with them. Early in the 20th C there were Republicans vs Monarchists, later KMT vs Communists. Apparently the 60s Communist insurgency in Thailand was financed via Bangkok Chinese. KMT settled up North helped the Thai Army fight the insurgency.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, relax33 said:

That's cause most of them live in a very "insulated" environment with little exposure to the outside world.

Quite.  I fail to see why anyone would think that there is something wrong with that. It may not suit those that think their way is better but there is an old saying about ignorance and bliss.

I grew up in a small town in the north of Scotland and in the 60s and against the wishes of the locals there was a "Hippy" community formed in the town. That original commune still exists today as the Findhorn Foundation and many of the current permanent residents will have been born there and haven't left the commune in decades.

 

The Common Ground is a statement of the common values of the Findhorn Foundation and the New Findhorn Association (NFA). It’s a living document, a code of conduct, and it’s used as a tool for transformation for ourselves, the community we live and work in and the world. Everyone who works for the Foundation or who joins the New Findhorn Association agrees to abide by this statement of Common Ground.

https://www.findhorn.org/about-us/

[turgid]

The West bring words,  the Chinese bring money and execution. The media pontificate over the words making us think they are more important than they are.   The business leaders and the politicians hear the money and see the Chinese getting stuff done. There is also the general problem that Western politics (and associated justice and investment systems)  can pendulum every 4 years so a lot of the time it's just wait it  out  and what you want will come around.  Imagine trying to build a pan  Asian transport network with Obama, Trump, Biden  (or even getting a high speed railway built from LA to San Francisco, or London to Manchester) .  The Chinese are much better at the long game than the Americans and strategic decision making and investment  is much easier if you consistently have the same mates in power.

[placnx]

23 hours ago, sandyf said:

Rubbish, what on earth makes you think the people in the west are happier than the people in China. From what I saw the majority had a better standard of life than the majority in the UK.

It has never been proven that goldfish are unhappy.

 

People in China have rarely been prosperous. China since early times has been a state or statelets based on "rule by law", which means control and repression of the masses. Power and wealth were intertwined, as wealth could not be kept without power to suppress moves for confiscation. Note the moves in the last year by Xi to suppress the power and wealth of the tech companies and their founder/owners.

 

In contrast, "rule of law" protects individuals and their property from arbitrary edicts such as those which Xi recently implemented. For decades, since the opening by Deng Xiao Ping, investment in real estate has been the vehicle for common people to try to get a return on their savings. Now many will suffer with XI's crackdown on the big real estate companies. And the urban middle class won't be indulging in Gucci, if that is what you mean by happiness.  

[placnx]

19 hours ago, relax33 said:

That's cause most of them live in a very "insulated" environment with little exposure to the outside world.
Most do not use english after learning it in school n do not explore the western aspects of the internet .
They are also very law abiding n obedient n most are not interested in  political discourse which makes them very "pliable" in a way.
It will take them at least 2 generations to be as demanding n worldly as the Taiwanese.
Even Singaporeans are very "insulated" .
They largely believe what the govt says and only read the local English daily, which is very limited n bias in a way .. 

With the Great Firewall of China, only a few people can get around it to know the truth about many things. An army of volunteer censors rapidly cleans up any wayward comments in Chinese social media.

[placnx]

18 hours ago, relax33 said:

As in most countries, the big cities n the areas near the coast are where people are more worldly .
Obviously you have educated folks who can think n relate to things but they often only form a small majority that are dwarfed out by people who act based on emotion n other illogical reasons .
Ironically, this is where the "democratic" one man one vote system will result in inferior candidates being voted to rule the country.
This affects countries everywhere from The Philippines to the US.
People usually become nationalistic when rallied upon by their leaders to support a certain cause
The Capitol Riots is indeed a nationalistic event that you will not see occurring in China anytime soon 
 

Maybe people get the government that they deserve in the East or West.

 

In China there are misbehaviors such as trashing Japanese businesses, but those acts have clandestine approval from on high.

[placnx]

5 hours ago, sscc said:

Answer is simple enough : 

Overall the life of 1.4 Billion Chinese in  Mainland China has been continuing to improve,  particularly in the last 20 years,  and almost all 1.4 Billion genuinely feel the improvement .................

So what is the surprise of Mainlander supporting for CCP government has been consistently over 90 % in past 15  years.  ( surveys done by few Western University / Western Scholars ) 

 

CCP came to power in Mainland China in 1949.   The opening 30 years from 1949 to late 1970's was big, big disaster.   

China was dirt poor in late 1970's and illiteracy was very high after those 30 disaster years. 

 

In 1978 they did an abrupt turnaround.   ( Too long to explain )

From late 1970's to now,   in this past 45-year period,  they had developed from everything desperate and poor to whatever China is now.   

 

One more important point is   China had aimed to erase poverty of Chinese population in Mainland China and had succeeded after 25 year effort.   

( China had talked about the helping the poor of the population very often in news conference,   every western country ignored this matter.   But many poor countries knew and appreciated the difficulty of this achievement ) 

 

 

 

 

The Chinese government could not possibly have done this without Boeing et al lobbyists who got Clinton to sponsor China to join the WTO. Deng Xiao Ping could only succeed in laying the groundwork for this because Mao Tse Tung dropped dead in 1976. Now we have a new Emperor, so how much of the progress which you cite will go up in smoke?

[placnx]

34 minutes ago, turgid said:

The West bring words,  the Chinese bring money and execution. The media pontificate over the words making us think they are more important than they are.   The business leaders and the politicians hear the money and see the Chinese getting stuff done. There is also the general problem that Western politics (and associated justice and investment systems)  can pendulum every 4 years so a lot of the time it's just wait it  out  and what you want will come around.  Imagine trying to build a pan  Asian transport network with Obama, Trump, Biden  (or even getting a high speed railway built from LA to San Francisco, or London to Manchester) .  The Chinese are much better at the long game than the Americans and strategic decision making and investment  is much easier if you consistently have the same mates in power.

It can be argued that the export of jobs to China, plus fentanyl coming from China, has played a significant role in the polarization seen in American politics. In the past, the political parties had less divergent views, so that foreign policy in particular was stable.

 

The change started happening after the Johnson Great Society years when southern Democratic voters pivoted to vote for Republican Nixon in 1968. As the Democratic Party was drained of its conservative faction over the years, the Republican Party drifted to the Right from its former centrist home. Now both parties try to attract votes from centrist independent voters.

 

In China time will tell whether Emperor Xi will benefit the Chinese people. Maybe rule by committee is safer.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

People in China have rarely been prosperous

Maybe you went to a different China, maybe the one to the north of Bangkok.

[candide]

20 hours ago, relax33 said:

That's cause most of them live in a very "insulated" environment with little exposure to the outside world.
Most do not use english after learning it in school n do not explore the western aspects of the internet .
They are also very law abiding n obedient n most are not interested in  political discourse which makes them very "pliable" in a way.
It will take them at least 2 generations to be as demanding n worldly as the Taiwanese.
Even Singaporeans are very "insulated" .
They largely believe what the govt says and only read the local English daily, which is very limited n bias in a way .. 

It's not only about being isolated. They are embrigated since primary school in pioneer organisations. On top of it,  all non- teaching activities, including at universities, are organised by the CCP. The CCP itself has around 900,000 members, which is huge, even in relation to the size of the population.

 

But that was not directly my point. My point was that those educated abroad are not only broadly supporting the government, but also buying nearly every piece of propaganda. For example, I know well some of them currently staying abroad. They are smart and educated, exposed to information about Ukraine from free media, and this is not an issue which affects them or their country directly, i.e. it's not a nationalistic issue such as Taiwan. Still, they always seem to parrot the position of Chinese authorities when we have a discussion about it.

[ftpjtm]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

Who do you think provided the info to the media, the government or the private hospitals.

So I have to decide who to believe on this issue;

 

- Private hospitals, who as a block are arguably one of the most respected institutions in Thailand, or;

- The government, who are so disliked and distrusted by the Thai public that they can only cling to power by re-writing the constitution giving themselves a hand picked block of friendly votes, AND outlawing rival political parties. 

 

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Do you you really think that under the circumstances the government would have gone out of their way to expedite an import licence for the private hospitals

Yes, I emphatically believe that in the middle of the worst pandemic in our lifetimes, the Thai government should have expedited import licenses for any vaccines available to Thai citizens. 

 

[farangnomore]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:11 AM, djayz said:

So you're saying we should drop our standards, ethics and moral codes? Everything our forefathers fought hundreds of years to achieve should be dumped overnight just so we can play their game at their level? How about we pull their sorry ar$e$ out of the middle ages and into the 21st century. 

You, I'm sure would, if you could.  The reality is, the west and its "democracy" and "free market" has run its course.  I know it's hard to accept that you are not "exceptional" but the world doesn't care about your pity feelings.  He who can, does what he wants.  That's how it's been for thousands of years.  China can, so it will.  You can pound sand.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, ftpjtm said:

Private hospitals, who as a block are arguably one of the most respected institutions in Thailand,

I see it now, you are having a laugh.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, ftpjtm said:

Yes, I emphatically believe that in the middle of the worst pandemic in our lifetimes, the Thai government should have expedited import licenses for any vaccines available to Thai citizens. 

Do you really believe that ANY government has concern for citizens that choose private over the government facilities.

People that booked vaccines through a private hospital have only themselves to blame, you paid your money and took a chance.

I use a government hospital  and got my first AZ dose on 7th June 2021, had 4 jabs now, all AZ. Wouldn't have Moderna if it was offered.

[relax33]

22 hours ago, placnx said:

With the Great Firewall of China, only a few people can get around it to know the truth about many things. An army of volunteer censors rapidly cleans up any wayward comments in Chinese social media.

The Chinese made 169 million outbound trips in 2019, 10 mil of which was to Thailand .
Ironically out of this number, more than 98% still choose to return to China  which goes to show how "less bad" they consider it to be. 
There are also millions of Chinese who had graduated from US universities besides those who did so  in the UK, Australia n elsewhere.
Chinese students spent 12 billion usd in Australia alone in 2019

Some facts that most are not aware;
a) they used to say there would never be a war between the US n China cos the scions of many ex Chinese party leaders live there.
b) the US n China have a 10 year visa arrangement that allows residents of either country to stay in the other for 10 years .
This is a privilege that supersedes any offered to any other country including the UK ..
Imagine only having to do 5 visa runs to stay for 50 years ...
c) Xi first visited the US in the early 80s .
He home stayed there for months, had known Biden for more than 10 years and have many US friends that he had known for 30 years.
d) Xi's daughter is a Harvard graduate  .
As a parent, you would assume that he obviously would be very familiar with the US , be suitably impressed and have enough goodwill  for it to want to send his only daughter there for her studies.
e) many members of China's political leadership have kin who are US greencard holders.

In truth, humans hate to be forced to do anything against their will so it's hard to brainwash them.
The only way to win their support is thru tangible actions n achievements that they can feel n become grateful to the leadership for .
And that is what the Chinese govt has largely manage to achieve over the last 40 years.

So "brainwash" is actually a highly fictional term (yes it exists in science fiction) created by the western media to further their objectives to tarnish what is perceived to be their systemic economic rival

Most educated folks in China; especially those in the middle n upper classes  have VPNS that allow them to bypass the local internet censorship n have access to whatever we can read internationally so the Great Wall is really just a tourist attraction these days .. 

[relax33]

20 hours ago, candide said:

It's not only about being isolated. They are embrigated since primary school in pioneer organisations. On top of it,  all non- teaching activities, including at universities, are organised by the CCP. The CCP itself has around 900,000 members, which is huge, even in relation to the size of the population.

Actually, it's not only 900k members but 95.15 mil members as of 2021.
The point is that these are all voluntary n members even need to pay membership fees.

Many aspiring business enterprises n start-ups will want to be members because being a member is like potentially meeting up with a Silicon valley venture fund as it will allow them to get funding n sponsorship besides other perks .

Being successful at membership retention n recruitment is surely not a crime right ... ha
don't ever be duped by western media to ever think there could be anything "sinister" about it ...

[ftpjtm]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

I see it now, you are having a laugh.

With my fairly extensive experiences dealing with both private hospitals and Customs authorities in Thailand, I have far more respect for the integrity of private hospitals.

 

Apparently you've had a different set of experiences. 

 

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Do you really believe that ANY government has concern for citizens that choose private over the government facilities.

Quotes from the linked articles below. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the Thai government's actions exhibit much concern for Thai citizens who were clamoring for vaccines.

 

"Despite promises made by Prime Minister Prayut Chan-ocha, government hurdles and red-tape have made it impossible for private hospitals to acquire vaccines on their own despite having the agency and connections to make it happen.

 

Prayut promised in a nationally-televised address to set up a committee to help the private sector bring in vaccines to supplement the government’s effort. However, that in the two-weeks since Prime Minister Prayut made the statement there has been no change on the ground and private hospitals are still frustrated by the lack of government communication and agency on the matter.

 

“At the moment, it is impossible for the private sector to bring in vaccines due to the government’s inaction,” said Dr Suwadee Puntpanich.

 

Another hospital administrator at the Bangkok Dust Medical Centre said that Suwadee’s experience was shared by all other private hospital groups.

 

 

“We know the market and have the contacts to make the vaccine imports happen but they can’t sell to us without a government go-ahead,” she said. “The prime minister has said that he wants private sector help but so far there has been zero communication from the Centre for COVID-19 Situation Administration or the health ministry.”

“There is no timeline for when we can bring in vaccines because we simply don’t know when the government will reply to our requests,” she said.

 

https://www.thaienquirer.com/26891/exclusive-government-inaction-blocking-private-hospital-vaccine-purchase-despite-prayut-promise/

 

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs appears to have scuttled an offered donation of 3 million doses of Moderna vaccine from a government agency in Poland to a hospital in Thailand, citing the need to conduct the deal through an “appropriate” diplomatic channel.

 

The MFA’s effort to block the shipment of the mRNA vaccines to Thailand was revealed in an internal document published by Than Setthakit newspaper on Monday."

 

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2021/10/25/mfa-blocks-polands-moderna-donation-to-thai-hospital/

 

 

[candide]

27 minutes ago, relax33 said:

Actually, it's not only 900k members but 95.15 mil members as of 2021.
The point is that these are all voluntary n members even need to pay membership fees.

Many aspiring business enterprises n start-ups will want to be members because being a member is like potentially meeting up with a Silicon valley venture fund as it will allow them to get funding n sponsorship besides other perks .

Being successful at membership retention n recruitment is surely not a crime right ... ha
don't ever be duped by western media to ever think there could be anything "sinister" about it ...

Thanks for correcting the number. It's useful not only for start-ups but for anyone intending to have a successful career. It's not "sinister" but shows the pervasiveness of the party.and the extent of human resources which can be leveraged.

[zzaa09]

On 3/30/2022 at 1:16 AM, placnx said:

Yes, and some brought their politics with them. Early in the 20th C there were Republicans vs Monarchists, later KMT vs Communists. Apparently the 60s Communist insurgency in Thailand was financed via Bangkok Chinese. KMT settled up North helped the Thai Army fight the insurgency.

Yet, those broader circles weren't really Communists, but instead anti-establishment revolutionaries who required some fashionable political label to befitting their cause. The Commie thing stuck and has been romanticized ever since.

 

Frankly, to date, one could never decipher the greater difference [historically] between any of these groups that were at odds - from late Chulalongkorn era into the 1930s and well into the turbulent and heralded 1960s/1970s. 

[IAMHERE]

On 3/30/2022 at 3:53 PM, placnx said:

Maybe people get the government that they deserve in the East or West.

 

Certainly poor people get the government they pay for.

[placnx]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:06 PM, sandyf said:

Maybe you went to a different China, maybe the one to the north of Bangkok.

My comment regards some thousands of years of Chinese history, not the last 30. Even these days, there is much more poverty than claimed. Someone else posted this earlier: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25/deep-sixing-poverty-in-china/

I have traveled in remote areas, not just the big cities in the East.

[placnx]

11 hours ago, farangnomore said:

You, I'm sure would, if you could.  The reality is, the west and its "democracy" and "free market" has run its course.  I know it's hard to accept that you are not "exceptional" but the world doesn't care about your pity feelings.  He who can, does what he wants.  That's how it's been for thousands of years.  China can, so it will.  You can pound sand.

At the moment, Xi is doing a pretty good job of sabotaging Chinese capitalism. The "rise" of China is not a given.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, relax33 said:

The Chinese made 169 million outbound trips in 2019, 10 mil of which was to Thailand .
Ironically out of this number, more than 98% still choose to return to China  which goes to show how "less bad" they consider it to be. 
There are also millions of Chinese who had graduated from US universities besides those who did so  in the UK, Australia n elsewhere.
Chinese students spent 12 billion usd in Australia alone in 2019

Some facts that most are not aware;
a) they used to say there would never be a war between the US n China cos the scions of many ex Chinese party leaders live there.
b) the US n China have a 10 year visa arrangement that allows residents of either country to stay in the other for 10 years .
This is a privilege that supersedes any offered to any other country including the UK ..
Imagine only having to do 5 visa runs to stay for 50 years ...
c) Xi first visited the US in the early 80s .
He home stayed there for months, had known Biden for more than 10 years and have many US friends that he had known for 30 years.
d) Xi's daughter is a Harvard graduate  .
As a parent, you would assume that he obviously would be very familiar with the US , be suitably impressed and have enough goodwill  for it to want to send his only daughter there for her studies.
e) many members of China's political leadership have kin who are US greencard holders.

In truth, humans hate to be forced to do anything against their will so it's hard to brainwash them.
The only way to win their support is thru tangible actions n achievements that they can feel n become grateful to the leadership for .
And that is what the Chinese govt has largely manage to achieve over the last 40 years.

So "brainwash" is actually a highly fictional term (yes it exists in science fiction) created by the western media to further their objectives to tarnish what is perceived to be their systemic economic rival

Most educated folks in China; especially those in the middle n upper classes  have VPNS that allow them to bypass the local internet censorship n have access to whatever we can read internationally so the Great Wall is really just a tourist attraction these days .. 

So tell us how many of these outbound are not in regimented group tours?

 

Chinese people certainly have an interest in becoming familiar with the US, for whatever reason.

 

I didn't mention "brainwash", so is your response just copied from an earlier post that you made somewhere?

 

As for VPN, it's a cat-and-mouse game.

[placnx]

5 hours ago, relax33 said:

Actually, it's not only 900k members but 95.15 mil members as of 2021.
The point is that these are all voluntary n members even need to pay membership fees.

Many aspiring business enterprises n start-ups will want to be members because being a member is like potentially meeting up with a Silicon valley venture fund as it will allow them to get funding n sponsorship besides other perks .

Being successful at membership retention n recruitment is surely not a crime right ... ha
don't ever be duped by western media to ever think there could be anything "sinister" about it ...

Being a CCP member is part of the survival game is it is played in this era.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed.

[garyk]

Chinese economy is in the toilet. If and when it ever rebounds then we can resurrect this thread.

Chinese immigrants have owned Thailand for years. US is not even in the picture.

 

[garyk]

Anyone betting against the US for being a financial global superpower for the foreseeable future has political propaganda dry rot in their head. haha

 

 

[TropicalGuy]

On 3/28/2022 at 2:12 PM, sandyf said:

What you do not understand is what the Thais understand.

What the Thais understand is that in the 30's about 12% of the people in Thailand were Chinese nationals and a significant percentage of today's population are of Chinese descent.  Nothing whatsoever to do with the west or their arrogance, it is a cultural affiliation, something difficult for foreigners to understand.

I understand that SE Asia or Pacific don’t matter. Europe, Arabian Gulf, NE Asia matter. 

[relax33]

11 hours ago, candide said:

Thanks for correcting the number. It's useful not only for start-ups but for anyone intending to have a successful career. It's not "sinister" but shows the pervasiveness of the party.and the extent of human resources which can be leveraged.

Membership is not automatic.
You have to wait to be admitted with some folks being rejected 3x n many never  accepted.
A good thing is that membership never hinges on wealth (unlike most political entities in the world where money largely talks)  as the party is never short of money n is itself the richest entity in the country.
It's far easier for an average joe to get in than some rich business man.
Xi himself was evicted from the party n had to wait several years to be re-admitted.
The Vatican is extremely rich n powerful too n you bet people favored by its council members will get a huge leg up in life.

[relax33]

6 hours ago, placnx said:

So tell us how many of these outbound are not in regimented group tours?

 

Chinese people certainly have an interest in becoming familiar with the US, for whatever reason.

 

I didn't mention "brainwash", so is your response just copied from an earlier post that you made somewhere?

 

As for VPN, it's a cat-and-mouse game.

You know these days using the words “So tell us how”  followed by blah blah  is dangerous as it would be viewed as “condescending”.
Even Fortune 500 bosses are wary of doing so to their underlings as they can lose their jobs for it.

Chinese people certainly have an interest in becoming familiar with the US
Just laying out the facts to say that these two countries are actually pretty close to one another (at least politically); not mortal enemies like what the press spins it to be ..
They were inviting each other’s generals as guests to view military exercises just 10 years ago.

Things only turned sour when the US found that it’s very close to losing it’s position as the world’s economic power and got paranoia ; which is understandable as countries in history do go through this stage of  “denial “when the baton is being passed.  

brainwash
sorry, was not referring to anyone in particular..

Just saw the words “brainwash” being used repeatedly so tried to put some perspective to it ..

You are spot on to say VPN is a cat n mouse game ..