Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[Pib]

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

He has a voltage gauge on his car, most lead acid batteries on cars charge at 14.4v for some of the charge cycle.  Perhaps @KhunLA can tell us what voltage he has seen on his ZS?  I recall seeing 14.3v on the MG EP+.

 

In any event, charging to 80% capacity may not necessarily be a bad thing depending on whether active balancer or passive balancer set for a higher voltage.  It could be beneficial.

"Most" cars stopped charging at a 14.4V rate many years ago although many, many websites still talk check your charging circuit to ensure it's puttiong out around 14 to 14.4V.   Nowdays a charging voltage of approx 13.6 to 14V is used as it better for battery life.   When lead 12V lead acid battery charges at a voltage level of approx 14.2V to 14.V or higher it starts boiling/vaporizing the electrolyte....basically that voltage level is in the" "Equalization" area of a charging profile....Equalization should "not" occur frequently...and only for short periods.   

 

My 2009 Toyota Fortuner will charge a maximum of 14V if the battery was mostly discharged....then once gaining most of its charge back it charges in the 13.6 to 14V ballpark...and mostly in the 13.6 to 13.7V ballpark.  The Toyota manual even shows a max charge voltage of 14.0V.  I did tons of voltage charging/voltage measurements over the years on my Forturner since the 12V lead acid battery typically lasted around 2 to 3 years....sometimes less than 18 months.  These charging voltage measurements done at the Toyota dealership (to include the time they changed th the alternator with built-in regulator) and mostly by my high accuracy digital voltmeters and BlueTooth battery monitor (voltage measurement accuracy of +/- 0.03V.  

 

My 2023 Atto wiht 12V lead acid battery charges at a rate of 13.6 to 13.8V....but mostly real close to 13.7V.   Ditto on using high accuracy voltmeters and BlueTooth monitor on the battery..  Basically the same charging profile as my 2009 Toyota Fortuner (15 years older than my Atto) which is a charge rate in the 13.6 to maximum of 14.0V.

[KhunLA]

36 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

He has a voltage gauge on his car, most lead acid batteries on cars charge at 14.4v for some of the charge cycle.  Perhaps @KhunLA can tell us what voltage he has seen on his ZS?  I recall seeing 14.3v on the MG EP+.

 

In any event, charging to 80% capacity may not necessarily be a bad thing depending on whether active balancer or passive balancer set for a higher voltage.  It could be beneficial.

Posted above, it was 14.2 & 3 more than a few times.  Thought the fluctuation range was a bit strange, as up & down from 11v-14v quite a bit over a 2 minute stretch before it reset and warning disappeared.

 

One guy on the MG forum replaced his with a lithium, only 50Ah, though since no cranking involved, shouldn't be that much of an issue, but did have to do a bit of modifying, as couple cm taller, and less length, along with terminals smaller on the one he used.  No desire to do that, along with any warranty issues it may violate.  

[JBChiangRai]

The charging circuit on MG EV's seems to charge at 14.3/14.4v whenever you start the car and the battery is not at (what they designate) full charge.  Once it achieves that it steps down the voltage to prevent unnecessary gassing.  I suspect the BMS in LFP batteries designed to mimic PbH₂SO₄ (Lead Acid) batteries .

 

I suspect all modern cars charge this way, 14.4v until at desired capacity and then a float voltage in the range you described with 13.8v being ideal.  I would be surprised if they are not all intelligent this way.

 

 

On the subject of gassing, it's actually releasing Oxygen & Hydrogen in the ratio of 2 x H₂ and 1 x O₂. It's not actually boiling or vaporising anything, though it can boil if you take it to extremes as heat is produced during the charging cycle.

[Pib]

Here's some snapshots  of the charging voltage levels for my 2009 Toyota Fortuner Diesel 3.0L and my 2023 Atto 3 EV using Bluetooth battery monitors with a +/- 0.03V accuracy...and accuracy confimed by comparing BT monitor measurements to a high accurancy digitial voltmater which has a +/- 0.01V accuracy.  Both use 12V flooded lead acid batteries.

 

The 1st snapshot is for my Atto 3 EV...a 24 hour time scale.  The voltage dip at around 0530 is just the EV doing some type of check for a very brief period....happens every night in the 0300hrs to 0600hrs ballpark.   The voltage rise to approx 13.73V starting around 1215hrs as the wife and I make a groceries run to Big C which only takes us approx 15 minutes to get to Big C but when turning the EV off at 1230hrs the charging voltage continues at 12.79V.  It's not uncommon for the charging of the 12V battery to continue for maybe for a few minutes maybe an hour or more (or sometimes the charging stops)...all depends on the EV DC to DC convertor charging circuit.  As mentioned when turning off the EV the charging continues in this case but at a slightly highly voltage of 13.79V.  It continues to charge at 13.79V until 1341hrs when we start the car to leave Big C and the charging voltage continues but at a slight lower level of around 13.7V.   A little after 1300hr we arrive our next shopping location and turn off the car, but this time the charging does not continue....the battery voltage drops to around 12.5V and then slowly and naturally recovers to around 12.6V.  Then I start the car again and the charging voltage goes up to 13.73V and then arriving home around 1430hrs and turning the car off the charging does not continue and the voltage drops down to around 12.6V before naturally recoverying to around 12.7V over 10 to 15 minutes.    Below voltage charging chart is typical of my daily Atto 3 driving.  While having the BT monitor on the Atto 3 for over 30 days now I have never seen a charging voltage over 13.8V nor lower than 13.6V....normally it charging at 13.7V give or take a few hundreths of a volt. 

 

 

 

Now this 2nd snapshot is for my 2009 Toyota Fortuner ICEV Diesel 3.0L.   Last drove it two days ago after it had been setting idle for approx 3 weeks.   The wife and I was out and about for around 5hrs from 1230hrs to to 1730hrs....made numerous stops where the car was turned off which means no charging unlike an EV which might decide to continue charging when turned off.   At no time did the charging voltage exceed 13.84V.    And over the many years I've owned the Fortuner, which includes the original alternator and a new alternator currently on the car the charging has never exceeded 14.0V...and the great majority of the time it's charging at 13.7V give or take two tenths of a volt (i.e., 13.5 to 13.9V).  

 

 

 

[Pib]

At bottom is a nice article talking Toyota charging voltage levels....how their system works...and really other manufacturers system follow the same general guidelines when charging a "lead-acid" battery because whether a lead acid battery is in an EV or ICEV it's still a lead-acid battery and it expects to be charged a certain way.    Partial quote and full article weblink at bottom.

 

A key thing to note here and I didn't mention before is vehicle charging systems made over the last few decades also do a much, much better job of taking into account "underhood" ambient temperatures.  Higher the temperature the lower the charging voltage.   Now this does not mean a temperature sensor is located right on the 12V battery (it may or may not have one), but just other temperature sensors used on the underhood drive components telling the various ECUs how hot or cold the engine compartment is, engine coolant, air intake temperature, etc.  

 

Since we are driving around in a tropical environment in Thailand the "underhood battery temperature" is going reach a very warm level which will cause a lower charging voltage level than the cars of numerous decades ago which used dumb regulators vs today's smart ECUs (electronic control units).    This assumes your battery is located under the hood/bonnet versus inside the cooled cabin or trunk. 

 

In an "ICEV" the underhood battery temperature is generally going to oscillate in the  50C (122F) to 60C (140F) ballpark (or at least my Fortuner does)...and on the really hot Thailand days during some months such as Mar-May it might approach 70C (158F) or more depending on the battery location under the hood, driving conditions, etc.   Now your engine coolant temperate is running hotter....I'm talking about the air in the engine compartment area where the battery usually lives which is being heated-up by the hot engine.

 

Now for EV underhood battery temperature it's signifantly lower than an ICEV since the EV does not use a combustion engine that acts like a pot-belly stove by putting off a lot of heat.  An EV electric motor operates at a much lower temp than a combusion engine...underhood battery temp is generally going to be appox 15C ( approx 60F) "cooler" than an ICEV in a hot environment like Thailand...the EV battery underhood air temp in Thailand is will be operating in the 35C to 45C (95F to 113F) ballpark

 

Now my 1966 and 1968 Chevelles and 1984 Pontiac Firebird charging circuits which just consisted of a pretty dumb voltage regulator charged at a higher voltage level than my much more modern 2009 Fortuner ICEV and 2023 BYD EV that use smart ECUs to better control charging....smart ECUs generally using a lower charging voltage although this may extend charging time it better for the battery life.   A lead acid battery life that may still fall quite short in a tropical environment when compared to a cold/cooler enviroment whether you are driving an EV or ICEV.  

 

 

https://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/toyota-charging-system-diagnostics/

Voltage Testing

Most Toyota charging systems integrate their voltage regulators into the alternator assembly. While charging voltage specifications vary according to application, the voltage regulator generally adjusts battery-charging voltage according to ambient air temperature. For example, at 70° F, the voltage regulator charges the battery at approximately 14.2 volts. As underhood or ambient temperatures increase, the charging voltage is reduced to about 13.8 volts or less to prevent boiling the water from the battery electrolyte. During cold weather, charging voltage can increase into the 15-volt range to compensate for reduced chemical activity in the battery in sub-freezing temperatures. In any case, consult your service data before assuming that an apparently low or high charging voltage is incorrect for the system in question.

[Bandersnatch]

The Nissan Leaf, one of the first EVs that you could buy in Thailand is being phased out resulting in some in some excellent deals as Nissan trys to clear stock. 

 

Case in point, you can lease an Nissan Leaf in the US for $20/month

 

 

 

 

So I popped over to the Nissan Thailand website to see what was on offer here.

 

First for some context, Nissan launched the 40kWh Leaf in Thailand for ฿2m back in 2018, when it didn’t sell the price was cut in half 

 

 

 

 

I was thinking maybe Nissan Thailand would drop the price to ฿500,000 but with CHAdeMO and no active thermal battery management, you could argue that the 40kWh Neta V would still be a better choice.

 

Turns out Nissan Thailand have actually put the price up 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

In March S&P cut Nissan's credit rating to "Junk"

 

You would have to be exceptionally brave (or stupid) to buy a new Nissan today.

[KhunLA]

22 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

He has a voltage gauge on his car, most lead acid batteries on cars charge at 14.4v for some of the charge cycle.  Perhaps @KhunLA can tell us what voltage he has seen on his ZS?  I recall seeing 14.3v on the MG EP+.

 

In any event, charging to 80% capacity may not necessarily be a bad thing depending on whether active balancer or passive balancer set for a higher voltage.  It could be beneficial.

Pretty sure we've seen 14.3v, and 10.1v the other day.  Here's L/H when things were 'acting up', that were caught on vid.  Wild fluctuation, not a few 0.1-2-3 movement, but 1-2v movement, which wasn't making sense:

 

 

Wife just got back from MG, good & bad, sort of.   Good ... not the battery or the charging 'module'  Bad ... possibly a bit of QC, as a loose cable wire was the culprit 

 

While there, and something we noticed lately, last few hundred kms, when hitting brakes (as rare as we use them),  just didn't feel right, and a bit of 'movement/thump' in brake pedal.   They checked, and 1 screw missing, with 1 loose 🙄

 

Asked if we drove on any rough roads, thinking a bit of excess vibrations.   But no, haven't gone off road.   Hit a few pot holes, harder than you want to hit, but nothing that I'd think would shake any bolts or screws loose.   Gave the whole car the once over, and all seem tight and fine 👍

 

Told the wife, only 3 things would make battery not charge, loose cable, bad charging 'module' (ICE/bad alternator/generator), or simply a crap battery, past it's life expectancy.   

 

Kudos again to local MG service dept. .... gave it the once over ... NO CHARGE

 

 

[Pib]

Hope the problem is fixed permanently.    

 

Out of courtesy now that your charging voltage is back to being stable what voltage reading do you get on the car's voltage meter say 15 seconds after starting the car "and" driving the car after approx 15 minutes?   

 

And if you have a handheld digital mutlimeter does a reading made with that multimeter "right on the battery terminals" agree with the car's voltage meter say plus or minus two tenths of volt?   

[Pib]

4 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

I was thinking maybe Nissan Thailand would drop the price to ฿500,000 but with CHAdeMO and no active thermal battery management, you could argue that the 40kWh Neta V would still be a better choice.

 

Turns out Nissan Thailand have actually put the price up 

 

 

 

Looking at the Thailand DLT registration stats for Jan-Jun 2024 four Nissan Leaf's have been been registered (one each in Feb, Mar, Apr, and May....zero in Jan and Jun). 

 

With a sales/regristration record like that plus a car having "cruise control" there is absolutely no reason to drop the price!!!  

 

If Nissan follows the Toyota mentally they may never lower the price to sell off whatever Leaf stock they have in Thailand.   Kinda like how the Toyota BZ4X EV which had very, very limited sales in 2023 but in Jan 2024 the DLT registration stats showed 66 being registered in Jan 2024.  Since then no registrations.   The Jan 2024 regristrations was probably doing some creative accounting for tax write-off purposes, maybe a wholesale for all remaining Thailand BZ4X stock to some overseas buyer, maybe selling/transferring them to their used car Toyota Sure division, etc.  

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

33 minutes ago, Pib said:

Hope the problem is fixed permanently.    

 

Out of courtesy now that your charging voltage is back to being stable what voltage reading do you get on the car's voltage meter say 15 seconds after starting the car "and" driving the car after approx 15 minutes?   

 

And if you have a handheld digital mutlimeter does a reading made with that multimeter "right on the battery terminals" agree with the car's voltage meter say plus or minus two tenths of volt?   

The highest reading after you start the car should give you the highest charging voltage.  There isn’t much charge taken out the battery because no starter motor so it should settle down to a much lower voltage fairly quickly.

[Pib]

18 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The highest reading after you start the car should give you the highest charging voltage.  There isn’t much charge taken out the battery because no starter motor so it should settle down to a much lower voltage fairly quickly.

yea...understand expeically for an EV where a starter is not being used which would draw hundreds of amps for around a second.  But even with an EV during that initial start where the high power traction battery relays are being engaged along with EV electonics fully powering-up, electric A/C powering up, etc., will draw around 30 amps (or more) briefly based on what I've seen for my Atto EV.   That initial start is where the highest current draw will occur which may result in a higher charging voltage than compared to x-amount of minutes later after that current draw was replenished. 

 

And of course the charging voltage might change very little (but the charging current/amps cokuld) depending on how the DC to DC convertor manages it's  Constant Voltage/Constant Current charging profile.  To measure the current change then we get into the area of using a clamp-on amp meter which the typical person will not have nor would attempt to use....but they may have a low cost digitial voltmeter to do an easy voltage measurement.

 

[JBChiangRai]

My theory is…

If the battery needs charge it will charge around 14.3-14.4v but within a fairly short period it will drop to low 13’s just to maintain it.

 

This is roughly what I saw on the MG EP+.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Hope the problem is fixed permanently.    

 

Out of courtesy now that your charging voltage is back to being stable what voltage reading do you get on the car's voltage meter say 15 seconds after starting the car "and" driving the car after approx 15 minutes?   

 

And if you have a handheld digital mutlimeter does a reading made with that multimeter "right on the battery terminals" agree with the car's voltage meter say plus or minus two tenths of volt?   

13.3 seems to be it's happy place +/-

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

 

Looking at the Thailand DLT registration stats for Jan-Jun 2024 four Nissan Leaf's have been been registered (one each in Feb, Mar, Apr, and May....zero in Jan and Jun). 

 

With a sales/regristration record like that plus a car having "cruise control" there is absolutely no reason to drop the price!!!  

 

If Nissan follows the Toyota mentally they may never lower the price to sell off whatever Leaf stock they have in Thailand.   Kinda like how the Toyota BZ4X EV which had very, very limited sales in 2023 but in Jan 2024 the DLT registration stats showed 66 being registered in Jan 2024.  Since then no registrations.   The Jan 2024 regristrations was probably doing some creative accounting for tax write-off purposes, maybe a wholesale for all remaining Thailand BZ4X stock to some overseas buyer, maybe selling/transferring them to their used car Toyota Sure division, etc.  

 

 

There was only 40 Nissan leafs for sale when the price was reduced to B959,000 in 2022

https://www.car250.com/all-new-nissan-leaf-ev-2022-0.html

[CLW]

On 7/20/2024 at 2:33 PM, UWEB said:

Better to go back to School and start learning to read, I was talking about Solar. Not TOU.

Do you even know what TOU is

[CLW]

On 7/21/2024 at 6:53 AM, Bandersnatch said:

 

Still waiting for a breakdown of your calculations for 15 year payback for solar 

 

You claim to have an EV, but no details offered as to which one.

 

Let me help you with your calculations

 

I make a saving on my previous PEA bill and powering my EVs of ฿8k a month let’s assume you save half that

 

฿4k x 180 months = ฿720,000

 

So your solar system would have to cost you ฿720,000!

 

Let’s assume you get a quote for a 10:10:10 system

 

Main Components would cost 
10,000 Watts of PV @ ฿5/W = ฿50,000
10kWh Batteries @ ฿5k/kWh = ฿50,000
10kW of Inversion @ ฿5k/kW = ฿50,000
Total = ฿150,000

 

to which you have to add ancillary items like cables, rails, clamps, breakers, combiner boxes plus fitting

 

A supply and fit quote would include mark up on your components as well but even so we are nowhere near ฿720,000

I’m calling bs on your 15 years payback

 

I own an MG 4 and drive five times to work per week, three full charges per week. Plus sometimes travelling on weekend or long holidays. The monthly cost of charging never exceeded 1,000 THB. So I don't know how you come up with monthly costs of 8k THB. Even if I add the electric cost for our house with 2 ACs, the monthly bill is rarely over 2k THB. With TOU (which also includes weekends and public holidays). 

 

And you want to tell me that a 10 kW PV system is feasible for this case? Like I said, 15 years ROI

[CLW]

On 7/21/2024 at 8:46 AM, KhunLA said:

If 3 or 5kW system installed specifically for the EV, and home during the day, ROI would be <1-2 yrs if driving 20k kms locally.   That would save 54k baht per year, and petrol (91) is now more expensive than when I did those calculations.   Comparing cost of MG ZS ICE vs BEV, which I owned/own both.

 

That's our potential saving charging the ZS at home on solar, if only driving locally.

 

ROI isn't even considering the savings off the house use of electric from PEA/MEA.   Just another uninformed post from an uninformed member.  Why do they bother ... 

 

Our 8kWh system with 20kWh of ESS will have a ROI from <4 years to 6 years, depending how much we abuse the AC and drive unnecessarily.  Are system wasn't exactly inexpensive, or DIY.

 

Real life experiences vs BS 

Who has its car at home during the day? I guess most people who still have to work drive their car to work....

So you already need a battery storage. Extra cost. 

Same case for use the electric for AC. Who is at home on daytime to benefit from that? Me and my partner are working, the child is at school. Earliest to start using AC is maybe 5 pm. 

Even with a small system, let's say 3 or 5 kW. When can I use the generated electricity? On weekends when I have TOU anyways. Doesn't make sense for me. Not unless the cost of electric here is going to increase 20 percent or more. And I can't see that coming

[UWEB]

14 minutes ago, CLW said:

Do you even know what TOU is

Yes, Time of use Meter from PEA. But seems to be you don't know what Solar is, it is not TOU.

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, CLW said:

Doesn't make sense for me. Not unless the cost of electric here is going to increase 20 percent or more. And I can't see that coming

It has since I've been here, although that is over a 20+ year stretch.   Remember about ฿3.25/kWh, now it's ฿4+/kWh if you use it.   The little we use, it's still under ฿4.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

30 minutes ago, CLW said:

I own an MG 4 and drive five times to work per week, three full charges per week. Plus sometimes travelling on weekend or long holidays. The monthly cost of charging never exceeded 1,000 THB. So I don't know how you come up with monthly costs of 8k THB. Even if I add the electric cost for our house with 2 ACs, the monthly bill is rarely over 2k THB. With TOU (which also includes weekends and public holidays). 

 

And you want to tell me that a 10 kW PV system is feasible for this case? Like I said, 15 years ROI

 

The correct solar system for you with a TOU meter is between 1.2Kw & 3Kw, Grid-Tied system.  Your ROI is between 1.5 and 4 years depending on how much profit (if any) you give someone to install it.

 

You will continue to charge your car on night rate but reduce your day rate drastically.

 

When I eventually sell up and downsize, I will be installing a 6 Kw Grid-Tied system with a TOU meter.

 

Congratulations on running an MG4, they are fantastic cars.

[CLW]

42 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

The correct solar system for you with a TOU meter is between 1.2Kw & 3Kw, Grid-Tied system.  Your ROI is between 1.5 and 4 years depending on how much profit (if any) you give someone to install it.

 

You will continue to charge your car on night rate but reduce your day rate drastically.

 

When I eventually sell up and downsize, I will be installing a 6 Kw Grid-Tied system with a TOU meter.

 

Congratulations on running an MG4, they are fantastic cars.

Grid-tied meaning I can sell excess electric to MEA during daytime?

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, CLW said:

Grid-tied meaning I can sell excess electric to MEA during daytime?

 

With the right permissions yes you could sell to MEA, but I recommend you don't, just set the inverter to "no export" and it will match the load in the house up to it's capability and above that you will use MEA's power.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

It has since I've been here, although that is over a 20+ year stretch.   Remember about ฿3.25/kWh, now it's ฿4+/kWh if you use it.   The little we use, it's still under ฿4.

@CLW  Here's on old post of mine, 2009, and 3.8/kWh.   Know I have but couldn't find earlier post, of say 2000 or 2001.   Actually things haven't change that much (relative) is using same mount of units. 

15 yrs - 25% - 1.66666% a year.

 

 

BUT ... Today, same amount of units/kWh would cost ... ฿2,523.34, total bill about 25% increase.

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, CLW said:

Grid-tied meaning I can sell excess electric to MEA during daytime?

If you have a TOU Meter installed you can not Export/ Sell Power to PEA/MEA.

[JBChiangRai]

48 minutes ago, UWEB said:

If you have a TOU Meter installed you can not Export/ Sell Power to PEA/MEA.

Well you could export but they wouldn’t pay you for it and they wouldn’t like it.

[Bandersnatch]

3 hours ago, CLW said:

And you want to tell me that a 10 kW PV system is feasible for this case? Like I said, 15 years ROI

To avoid confusion 
 

The formula for ROI is: (profit minus cost) / cost, expensed as a percentage.

The formula for Payback is: initial investment / annual savings, expressed in years

 

In your circumstances, having a small electric bill and not being at home much makes solar a marginal decision at best but I still dispute the 15 years payback as any solar system can be scaled to match the load.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

26 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

To avoid confusion 
 

The formula for ROI is: (profit minus cost) / cost, expensed as a percentage.

The formula for Payback is: initial investment / annual savings, expressed in years

 

In your circumstances, having a small electric bill and not being at home much makes solar a marginal decision at best but I still dispute the 15 years payback as any solar system can be scaled to match the load.

 

 

But as far as the load is concerned, it does not matter if he's home every day, or one day a month, does it? 

[KhunLA]

43 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

But as far as the load is concerned, it does not matter if he's home every day, or one day a month, does it? 

We use about 4kWh a day when O&A.  That's just 2 frigs (1 sm, 1 med), and maybe 1 light on.   Would think hard not to get decent & fast ROI provided you didn't go crazy on size of system.

 

Remember, after ROI, it's 'free'.   Having solar, any size or type seems like a good idea to me.  Especially if living in an area with brown outs.

 

On topic ... as always:

Add an EV to the that, whether, MC, scooter or ebike, and savings add up, if cost and or savings is actually a concern.   I simply like having, and the saving is a nice plus.

[UWEB]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Well you could export but they wouldn’t pay you for it and they wouldn’t like it.

I doubt this. I have a Digital Meter and my Ghost Export get shown under code 300 on the Display. My Neighbor got caught by PEA when his Meter was spinning backwards, after a lot of discussions they finally agreed to install a TOU Meter which blocks all export from his Solar. Later we found that code 300  not get shown on his TOU Display.