Thailand Affirms Neutral Stance on Russia-Ukraine Crisis

[candide]

7 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

What I would say is that the failure to reach diplomatic solutions before an invasion started is totally unforgiveable. I am aware of Putin's "demands" to end the skuffle and they were all absolutely reasonable IMO. There is no need for the west to place nukes on Russias border, they could atomize the country from anywhere if so desired. 

You are confusing Putin's speeches with reliable information. There was no plan to place nukes in Ukraine. Actually, there aren't any nukes even in second line NATO Eastern Europe countries. Apart from France's and UK's own nukes, nuclear weapons are stored in only 5 countries. There are no nukes in countries such as Poland, Hungary, etc... 

 

"In 2021, it is estimated that there are 100 U.S.-owned nuclear weapons stored in five NATO member states across six bases: Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Büchel Air Base in Germany, Aviano and Ghedi Air Bases in Italy, Volkel Air Base in the Netherlands, and Incirlik in Turkey."

https://armscontrolcenter.org/fact-sheet-u-s-nuclear-weapons-in-europe/

[candide]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Have you noted that most of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the US war in Iraq? Have you noted that virtually all of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the previous administration's sabotage of the Iran nuclear agreement? Have you noted that Finland, which has kept itself scrupulously non-aligned for roughly 80 years, is now seriously contemplating joining NATO because of the Russian invasion?  Does any of this look significant to you?

And in particular..... ????

"Against the Iraq War - Dominique de Villepin

On February 14, 2003, in the UN Security Council, Dominique de Villepin refused ratify the Iraq war. He spoke on  behalf of peace and on behalf of the Iraqi people. But his warnings were never heeded and they still ring true today."

https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/074567-011-A/great-speeches-that-made-history/

[Capella]

5 hours ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

Those who try are dead meat walking.

Very macho, you must have a big one, and you're completely in line with the media feed. Let's nuke Russia then. Get it off our chests, while our domestic support structure goes to hell in a handcart, people at home unable to pay their bills while we blow billions on yet another war that we don't understand. 

[Capella]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

Have you noted that most of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the US war in Iraq? Have you noted that virtually all of the countries that support the U.S. position on the Ukraine, did not support the previous administration's sabotage of the Iran nuclear agreement? Have you noted that Finland, which has kept itself scrupulously non-aligned for roughly 80 years, is now seriously contemplating joining NATO because of the Russian invasion?  Does any of this look significant to you?

Looks more like the Thucydides Trap. The old empire lashing out as it self destructs under the weight of its own contradictions. I hope I'm wrong. 

[zzaa09]

Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace.

   ~ Gore Vidal  

 

 

War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning. 

    ~ Chris Hedges

[placeholder]

49 minutes ago, Capella said:

Looks more like the Thucydides Trap. The old empire lashing out as it self destructs under the weight of its own contradictions. I hope I'm wrong. 

Wow! If ever there was an example of misplaced historical blindness, it's your comment here. What decrepit nation is struggling to regain control of lands and people it once ruled as an empire? A nation with an economy smaller than others with populations that are a small fraction of its subjects?  Does the name "Russia" ring any bells for you?

[Capella]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Wow! If ever there was an example of misplaced historical blindness, it's your comment here. What decrepit nation is struggling to regain control of lands and people it once ruled as an empire? A nation with an economy smaller than others with populations that are a small fraction of its subjects?  Does the name "Russia" ring any bells for you?

What was once the world's greatest power, now has an obviously senile old man in charge. It's such a shame. 

[placeholder]

17 hours ago, Capella said:

What was once the world's greatest power, now has an obviously senile old man in charge. It's such a shame. 

So you've got no answer to the fact that it's Russia that corresponds to a declining empire. I guess it's no fun for you to be hoist by your own petard.

Instead, all you can offer is insults directed at a person. That is a telltale sign of someone who's got nothing substantive to offer.

. And somehow, what was "once the world's greatest power", has deterred Chinese industry from providing crucial goods to Russia.

Chinese tech firms pull out of Russia: report

Chinese tech firms are leaving Russia amid crippling sanctions the international community has put on the region, people familiar with the issue told The Wall Street Journal.

Tech companies such as Lenovo Group Ltd. and Xiaomi Corp. are restricting shipments to Russia as sanctions have made it difficult to operate financially in the country, sources told the outlet. 

A number of Chinese companies have avoided publicly announcing why they are pulling business from Russia after the Chinese government said businesses had to fight against Western sanctions.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3479807-chinese-tech-firms-pull-out-of-russia-report/

 

So the USA is inferior in power to what nation(s)?

[Capella]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So the USA is inferior in power to what nation(s)?

China, or haven't you noticed? While the US preaches about pronouns, China makes things. 

[placeholder]

Just now, Capella said:

China, or haven't you noticed? While the US preaches about pronouns, China makes things. 

Really? This gives China the power to do what exactly? When it comes to crucial technology such as chips, China runs far behind the West. Maybe someday China will be number 1. But to assert that it's now number 1 is ridiculous. And given the incompetence of its current ruler, I don't think it will ever get there. He inherited a strong and growing economy, but he's doing his best to undermine it. Countries run by megalomaniacs tend not to do so well in the long run or even the medium run.

 

[Capella]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Countries run by megalomaniacs tend not to do so well in the long run or even the medium run.

The CCP was founded in 1921.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Capella said:

The CCP was founded in 1921.

The megalomaniac I was referring to was Xi. The previous megalomaniac was Mao. How did Mao's reign work out for the Chinese economy? There was a 37 year interregnum between the death of one megalomaniac and the ascent of another.

[RayC]

18 hours ago, Capella said:

A self described "remarkable" poll from Kiev by this incredibly impartial organisation...

 

https://www.europeanleadershipnetwork.org/about/

You question the validity of the poll without giving any evidence to support your position. This seems to be a trend.

 

18 hours ago, Capella said:

 

Polls are used to shape public opinion rather than to measure it. Brexit and Trump are two good examples. 

 If the instances you quote are anything to go by then they are spectacularly poor at doing so! Clinton and 'Remain' were ahead on (almost) all polls.

 

18 hours ago, Capella said:

 

You'll be posting material from the BBC and CNN next.

I assume that you are inferring that BBC and CNN are unreliable sources of information? Who would you have us trust for 'the facts'? Pravda?

 

18 hours ago, Capella said:

 

This "poll from Kiev" purporting to speak for all Ukrainians - did it include people from Eastern Ukraine too?

 

You don't know. 

I don't but as I stated above you provide no evidence to the contrary.

 

At any rate, all this is tangential. I notice that you make no attempt to address my main points i.e. whether nations have the right to self-determination and how the Russian invasion can be justified. You seem to believe that because the West/ NATO might have intervened in previous conflicts without justification then it has no business intervening in any future conflicts.

 

Incidentally, what's your view on Finland applying for NATO membership? Should it be allowed or is it another example of a country being seduced by NATO and which needs saving from itself?

[tokachinter]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:17 AM, ozimoron said:

Ukraine is part of the Western world now.

It has been since before the 2014 coup d'etat made it an open secret.

 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

It has been since before the 2014 coup d'etat made it an open secret.

 

You mean when they kicked out a Putin puppet?

Its very clear that a strong majority of Ukrainians including Russian speakers have embraced Ukrainian national identity and don't want to be part of war criminal Putin's perverted pipe dream of a restored Soviet Union.

[tokachinter]

Just now, Jingthing said:

You mean when they kicked out a Putin puppet?

Its very clear that a strong majority og Ukrainians including Russian speakers have embraced Ukrainian national identity and don't want to be part of war criminal Putin's perverted pipe dream of a restored Soviet Union.

The Nuland coup came about because President Yanukovich had second thoughts about signing up to a debt inducing IMF loan after Russia had rejected extra loans to the most corrupt country in Europe. He had won a majority in the last internationally observed election in 2010. The Ukraine identity you cite began to dissolve after the U.S. nominated Poroshenko (remember the leaked Nuland phone call & video?) post coup. Previously apolitical citizens objected to the banning of their native language (51% of Ukrainians speak Russian), TV stations and religion. Before labelling one side 'war criminals' you may care to watch Patrick Lancaster's many interviews with citizens of Mariupol (I advise you to skip the most gruesome video where he is shown a murdered woman in a basement with a swastika carved in her chest).  Like many, you misinterpret Putin's comments where he laments the breakup of the Soviet Union as implying he wants to see it reformed. His statement was taken out of context as he continued to say that it brought about one of the worst periods of Russian history due to the lawlessness that allowed the Russian mafia oligarchs and carpetbaggers from outside the country to plunder it. His first decade in power was dedicated to stabilising the country and removing most, but not all of, the criminal oligarchs.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, tokachinter said:

The Nuland coup came about because President Yanukovich had second thoughts about signing up to a debt inducing IMF loan after Russia had rejected extra loans to the most corrupt country in Europe. He had won a majority in the last internationally observed election in 2010. The Ukraine identity you cite began to dissolve after the U.S. nominated Poroshenko (remember the leaked Nuland phone call & video?) post coup. Previously apolitical citizens objected to the banning of their native language (51% of Ukrainians speak Russian), TV stations and religion. Before labelling one side 'war criminals' you may care to watch Patrick Lancaster's many interviews with citizens of Mariupol (I advise you to skip the most gruesome video where he is shown a murdered woman in a basement with a swastika carved in her chest).  Like many, you misinterpret Putin's comments where he laments the breakup of the Soviet Union as implying he wants to see it reformed. His statement was taken out of context as he continued to say that it brought about one of the worst periods of Russian history due to the lawlessness that allowed the Russian mafia oligarchs and carpetbaggers from outside the country to plunder it. His first decade in power was dedicated to stabilising the country and removing most, but not all of, the criminal oligarchs.

Putin himself is one of the worst Oligarchs and has supported the oligarchy during his reign which is how he consolidated power. Ukraine never outlawed the use of the Russian language they only mandated it's use for education, government and law. Try demanding to be educated in Greek in Australia.

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

The Nuland coup came about because President Yanukovich had second thoughts about signing up to a debt inducing IMF loan after Russia had rejected extra loans to the most corrupt country in Europe. He had won a majority in the last internationally observed election in 2010. The Ukraine identity you cite began to dissolve after the U.S. nominated Poroshenko (remember the leaked Nuland phone call & video?) post coup. Previously apolitical citizens objected to the banning of their native language (51% of Ukrainians speak Russian), TV stations and religion. Before labelling one side 'war criminals' you may care to watch Patrick Lancaster's many interviews with citizens of Mariupol (I advise you to skip the most gruesome video where he is shown a murdered woman in a basement with a swastika carved in her chest).  Like many, you misinterpret Putin's comments where he laments the breakup of the Soviet Union as implying he wants to see it reformed. His statement was taken out of context as he continued to say that it brought about one of the worst periods of Russian history due to the lawlessness that allowed the Russian mafia oligarchs and carpetbaggers from outside the country to plunder it. His first decade in power was dedicated to stabilising the country and removing most, but not all of, the criminal oligarchs.

Patrick Lancaster, you should look at the company you keep in your viewing...lol one of the biggest pro Russian bloggers there is who makes constant fake claims:

 

"After the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in the summer of 2014, Patrick Lancaster made a video denying the crash investigation results. Russia is doing the same, denying its responsibility for shooting down the plane. An international investigation in the Netherlands proved the aircraft had been shot down by a missile from the Buk anti-aircraft missile system belonging to the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade of the russian ground forces, based near Kursk."

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

The Nuland coup came about because President Yanukovich had second thoughts about signing up to a debt inducing IMF loan after Russia had rejected extra loans to the most corrupt country in Europe. He had won a majority in the last internationally observed election in 2010. The Ukraine identity you cite began to dissolve after the U.S. nominated Poroshenko (remember the leaked Nuland phone call & video?) post coup. Previously apolitical citizens objected to the banning of their native language (51% of Ukrainians speak Russian), TV stations and religion. Before labelling one side 'war criminals' you may care to watch Patrick Lancaster's many interviews with citizens of Mariupol (I advise you to skip the most gruesome video where he is shown a murdered woman in a basement with a swastika carved in her chest).  Like many, you misinterpret Putin's comments where he laments the breakup of the Soviet Union as implying he wants to see it reformed. His statement was taken out of context as he continued to say that it brought about one of the worst periods of Russian history due to the lawlessness that allowed the Russian mafia oligarchs and carpetbaggers from outside the country to plunder it. His first decade in power was dedicated to stabilising the country and removing most, but not all of, the criminal oligarchs.

Putin propaganda.

Putin has genocidal intentions towards Ukraine.

His fighting Nazis line is a big lie.

He's been clear that his real meaning of Nazis is people with Ukrainian national identity which includes Russian speakers like Jewish Zelinsky.

Even if you buy the pile of rotting fish you're trying to sell, there is no justification for the invasion. Ukraine was no threat at all to Russian sovereignty.

 

[tokachinter]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Patrick Lancaster, you should look at the company you keep in your viewing...lol one of the biggest pro Russian bloggers there is who makes constant fake claims:

 

"After the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in the summer of 2014, Patrick Lancaster made a video denying the crash investigation results. Russia is doing the same, denying its responsibility for shooting down the plane. An international investigation in the Netherlands proved the aircraft had been shot down by a missile from the Buk anti-aircraft missile system belonging to the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade of the russian ground forces, based near Kursk."

Re: MH17, it is certainly up to you whether you believe the Netherlands' investigation (where Russian evidence was suppressed) or the Russian one. Patrick Lancaster's pro-Russian (he's married to a Ukrainian, by the way) stance could certainly influence his decision as to what interviews he chooses to publish, however it can't alter the content unless you believe the interviewees are all crisis actors!  Please watch one or two of his videos and then let me know whether you believe the people interviewed are genuine or fake.   

[tokachinter]

36 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Putin himself is one of the worst Oligarchs and has supported the oligarchy during his reign which is how he consolidated power. Ukraine never outlawed the use of the Russian language they only mandated it's use for education, government and law. Try demanding to be educated in Greek in Australia.

Thanks for your comment. I did some more research on the language ban, which started in 2018 and expanded after that to ban all Russian language print and electronic media. The 2018 Bill banned its use in public included its use by doctors, bank employees as well as the playing of Russian music or reading of it in public (reference The Guardian 25/04/19). This is in addition to the areas you noted.  Of course, during their reign of terror in the Donbass that started with the burning alive of protesters in Odessa in 2014, The N@zi Azov Battalion has frequently used a difficult-to-pronounce Ukrainian word as a means test to catch so-called Russian sympathisers. Those apprehended faced fines, imprisonment or worse. 

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

Thanks for your comment. I did some more research on the language ban, which started in 2018 and expanded after that to ban all Russian language print and electronic media. The 2018 Bill banned its use in public included its use by doctors, bank employees as well as the playing of Russian music or reading of it in public (reference The Guardian 25/04/19). This is in addition to the areas you noted.  Of course, during their reign of terror in the Donbass that started with the burning alive of protesters in Odessa in 2014, The N@zi Azov Battalion has frequently used a difficult-to-pronounce Ukrainian word as a means test to catch so-called Russian sympathisers. Those apprehended faced fines, imprisonment or worse. 

Rubbish, provide a credible link.

 

Requiring doctors and civil servants to know Ukrainian is not equivalent to banning the use of the language. Every country has similar policies. And, even if it did, does that justify and invasion and thousands of barbaric war crimes?

 

The law, which obliges all citizens to know the Ukrainian language and makes it a mandatory requirement for civil servants, soldiers, doctors, and teachers, was championed by outgoing President Petro Poroshenko.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

Re: MH17, it is certainly up to you whether you believe the Netherlands' investigation (where Russian evidence was suppressed) or the Russian one. Patrick Lancaster's pro-Russian (he's married to a Ukrainian, by the way) stance could certainly influence his decision as to what interviews he chooses to publish, however it can't alter the content unless you believe the interviewees are all crisis actors!  Please watch one or two of his videos and then let me know whether you believe the people interviewed are genuine or fake.   

Yes I prefer to believe a thorough and meticulous scientific investigation which has resulted in International arrest warrants being issued for the four suspects and a court case that began in the Netherlands on 9 March 2020 and reconvenes on the 16th May next week. Over a pro Russian you tube blogger with nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

 

He works along with his mate Graham Phillips another pro Russian blogger who spreads his hate and fake claims through Youtube and who is himself accused of war crimes

 

 

[candide]

52 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

Re: MH17, it is certainly up to you whether you believe the Netherlands' investigation (where Russian evidence was suppressed) or the Russian one. Patrick Lancaster's pro-Russian (he's married to a Ukrainian, by the way) stance could certainly influence his decision as to what interviews he chooses to publish, however it can't alter the content unless you believe the interviewees are all crisis actors!  Please watch one or two of his videos and then let me know whether you believe the people interviewed are genuine or fake.   

Ahem...

https://www.grid.news/story/misinformation/2022/04/18/russias-favorite-war-propagandist-is-a-navy-veteran-from-missouri/

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

Re: MH17, it is certainly up to you whether you believe the Netherlands' investigation (where Russian evidence was suppressed) or the Russian one. Patrick Lancaster's pro-Russian (he's married to a Ukrainian, by the way) stance could certainly influence his decision as to what interviews he chooses to publish, however it can't alter the content unless you believe the interviewees are all crisis actors!  Please watch one or two of his videos and then let me know whether you believe the people interviewed are genuine or fake.   

Inviting us to watch Putin propaganda misinformation videos. Well there is a sucker born every minute.

[candide]

49 minutes ago, tokachinter said:

Thanks for your comment. I did some more research on the language ban, which started in 2018 and expanded after that to ban all Russian language print and electronic media. The 2018 Bill banned its use in public included its use by doctors, bank employees as well as the playing of Russian music or reading of it in public (reference The Guardian 25/04/19). This is in addition to the areas you noted.  Of course, during their reign of terror in the Donbass that started with the burning alive of protesters in Odessa in 2014, The N@zi Azov Battalion has frequently used a difficult-to-pronounce Ukrainian word as a means test to catch so-called Russian sympathisers. Those apprehended faced fines, imprisonment or worse. 

I think they have gone too far with the 2019 law, but:

- details matter: the essence of the law is to mandate Ukrainian language. It does not strictly forbid using Russian. Ex Russian language can be used in newspapers, but a translation in Ukrainian must be provided. Doctors or judges can use Russian by mutual agreement, etc...

- there is a context: the Ukrainisation trend was notably amplified after the invasion of Crimea and after citizen of "autonomous" regions got granted Russian passports. So Russia is also partly responsible of this excessive reaction.

All this is explained in the article you refer to, but it seems you don't like to mention what doesn't support your point.

So OK they have gone too far and It's obvious that the EU, the ECHR, etc... will put pressure on them to amend the law. However, the key issue is: does it justify invading Ukraine and slaughter people? For me, the answer is obvious.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/25/ukraine-adopts-law-enforcing-use-of-ukrainian-in-public-life

 

Your tendency to occult information in order to support your propaganda is also evident about the Mariopol event. The protesters "burning alive" in Odessa was not caused by the government, but by a conflict between pro-Maidan and anti-Maidan protesters (the local administration and police being largely anti-Maidan in this place at that time. Pro-Maidan protesters had been continuously attacked by armed  pro-Russian protesters (while police wasn't doing much to prevent it) and it caused the latest confrontation which culminated by the burning of a building. This is all documented here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes