Ukraine war: Russia says 'liberation' of Donbas its key priority

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4 minutes ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

It makes perfect sense not to back corrupt regimes, regardless of whether there are other corrupt regimes in existence.

 

 

But it's not about backing a corrupt regime. It's about backing the Ukrainian people from a reign of terror. There have been extensive public discussions about harshly punishing the "neo-Nazis" in Ukraine after the war. And as you pointed out, the means anti-Russian. So why wouldn't the Ukrainians fight with all their might against a country that claims that there is no such thing as Ukrainian culture and is likely to mete out harsh punishments.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I know that's what Russia wants neo-nazi to mean. But on what rational basis does being neo-Nazi equate to being anti-Russian.? Who gave Russia the authority to drastically change the meaning of words? And if neo-Nazi does mean anti-Russian, then by that understanding, it should no longer have any relation to the Nazi party of Germany or its ideology.

 And exactly what percentage of the Ukrainian armed forces consists of the Azov battalion? It's vanishingly small.

The Azov battalion began as the military arm of a fascist political party in Ukraine. In the last election that party gott got about 2 percent of the vote. And in wartime, as the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The Azov battalion may be repugnant but they are excellent soldiers.. What's more, their goal, once they defeated the insurrectionists in Donbas, was to overthrow the Ukrainian govt. So not really strong allies of the current govt. And of course, in WW2, America's most important ally in the fight against the Nazis was Russia. As you may recall, Stalin had 3 million Ukrainians starve to death. And that was only a fraction of the atrocities he committed. So does that mean fighting against Nazi Germany was a bad thing?

And by the way, the Pew Institute did a survey of anti-Semitic sentiment in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. You know which nation had the lowest percentage of anti-Semitic sentiment? Ukraine. Those people are really incompetent at being Nazis.

And you claimed that Israel supported the Azov regiment. Actually it was the billionaire, Kolomoisky. Just because he's an Israeli citizen, does that mean Israel was responsible for this? Seems like you're treading pretty close to, if not crossing the line into, anti-Semitic territory. What makes your slur particularly suspect, is the Israel has held itself aloof from the conflict. It has its own local reasons for not wanting to antagonize Russia. And it's gotten a lot of flak for that.

To Putin Nazi means Ukrainian national identity. The vast majority of Ukrainians have that including Russian speakers ironically largely because of Putin's actions. Putin's intentions toward Ukraine are genocidal.

[Bruno123]

On 5/30/2022 at 12:47 PM, Mr Derek said:

It's as if the west is only just beginning to understand that this is what it is all about. We can't expect objectivity from the BBC but I see they at least say "Separatists in the two regions, which historically have strong ties to Russia, broke away in 2014 and are now fighting alongside Russian troops to take full control" - that must have stuck in their throat. Of course, it's not just 'separatists' who have strong ties to Russia but the statistical majority of the population in the Donbas (why is everyone refusing to acknowledge that point? - it's what the whole conflict is about!) and they will all want to see the 8-year civil war with Ukraine resolved.

 

It's a pity that Ukraine did not do the decent thing in the beginning, which was to give them independence or at least a referendum, and thereby prevent this mess. Given the way Ukraine has treated the Donbas in recent years it's a fair bet the population will choose to join the Russian Federation after liberation, which, if we call ourselves democratic, should be applauded by everyone in the west.

 

It seems there are eight of you who refuse to acknowledge that the Russian army has been involved all along. Russian soldiers under contract.

Do you actually believe that it was just 'separatists' fighting against the Ukrainians? 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

It makes perfect sense not to back corrupt regimes, regardless of whether there are other corrupt regimes in existence.

 

 

Better stop being a poster boy for Vlad then comrade

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

 

 

I can only post something here if it gets reported in the New York Times, the Guardian, etc. Videos of Ukrainian troops saying they have been abandoned by Kiev would get deleted, videos of Ukrainian troops making a run for it from Donbass would get deleted unless they are from approved sources.

 

You can take a look at how the tone of reporting has changed in the west to see what is about to happen.

 

[url=https://ibb.co/pzcZqt8][img]https://i.ibb.co/yyt52w1/FT827wx-Xo-AE5ba-D.jpg[/img][/url]

 

https://ibb.co/pzcZqt8

 

Seriously..............????

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10 hours ago, Mr Derek said:

The so-called 'defenders' in Mariupol would have certainly been told by Ukraine, upon pressure by the west, to put up a 'heroic resistance' for a long time in order to garner worldwide sympathy and support, when it would have been far more humane and sensible for them to surrender earlier.

And they were compelled to obey that order how? Usually when a force keeps on fighting against all odds it's labeled "heroic." In your world, apparently, they were only obeying orders. Seems strange that the Russians have so much trouble getting their troops to obey orders to keep fighting in circumstances far less dire.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

 

Western countries banned Russia Today, and hordes of contrarians have been banned from social media. Because what we are being told in our media can't stand scrutiny. We have observed that our media and governments lie about everything.

 

The Ukrainian army is crumbling. Our analysts and media told us they were going to beat Russia, and on that basis more Ukrainians were thrown into the meat grinder, when a peace deal would have served them better.

 

The question was "Do you actually believe all the Russian propaganda, or are you being paid to promote it?". 

 

By dodging the question it is clear that your answer is "Yes".

 

By using nonsense straight out of the Russian propaganda playbook, you confirm that your answer is "Yes".

 

It still remains unresolved if you are promoting this propaganda because you are gullible or a professional.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

Stealing state funds himself is just a straw-man argument you are throwing out as a distraction.

 

Ukraine is a very corrupt country. Zelinski was a front for a billionaire who put him a TV series where he played a normal guy who became the President of Ukraine on an anti-corruption platform.

 

That was a psychological operation. Once Zelinski got into power we saw that he is just another crook, an actor playing the part of a savior of the people.

 

The people in control of Ukraine are not representative of Ukrainians. They are an international criminal cabal.

 

I just looked up the current Mayor of Odessa.

 

 

Sure, these people are fighting for Democracy, freedom, and liberty...

 

Prior to the 2014 revolution Ukraine was a corrupt oligarchy just like Russia.  Removing that kind of deep-rooted corruption takes time; effective leaders must whittle away at it.  There are no quick fixes.

 

The fact that Zelinski couldn't wave a magic wand and make all well in Ukraine does not in any way justify Russia's invasion.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

 

 

I can only post something here if it gets reported in the New York Times, the Guardian, etc. Videos of Ukrainian troops saying they have been abandoned by Kiev would get deleted, videos of Ukrainian troops making a run for it from Donbass would get deleted unless they are from approved sources.

 

You can take a look at how the tone of reporting has changed in the west to see what is about to happen.

 

[url=https://ibb.co/pzcZqt8][img]https://i.ibb.co/yyt52w1/FT827wx-Xo-AE5ba-D.jpg[/img][/url]

 

https://ibb.co/pzcZqt8

 

If Zelinski hadn't said that Ukraine was going to join NATO and rearm with nukes there wouldn't have been a war in the first place.

 

Russia is going to impose a peace deal and your sadness won't make any difference to that outcome. Russia is going to take a large chunk of Ukraine and force the rest to remain neutral, disarmed, and out of NATO. People died for nothing.

 

Even in a worst case scenario of Russia being allowed to claim some kind of victory, it will be a costly victory over a fraction of Ukraine.  And it would be a long time before Russia tries something as stupid as the Ukraine invasion again.  Letting Russia dominate the entire country of Ukraine with ease would have led to more invasions of other countries.

[heybruce]

9 hours ago, Smoothsailing1 said:

It makes perfect sense not to back corrupt regimes, regardless of whether there are other corrupt regimes in existence.

So in your opinion the moral high ground requires letting Russia and China swallow up any country that isn't squeaky clean?

[JetsetBkk]

18 hours ago, placeholder said:

Zelensky was not identified as a crook. It may be sleazy what he did with the money he earned from his very successful career as a comedian, an actor and an owner of a production company. But no evidence to suggest that he stole state funds.

His career as a comedian, an actor and an owner of a production company continues.

It is now called "The Government of The Ukraine".

 

 

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17 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

His career as a comedian, an actor and an owner of a production company continues.

It is now called "The Government of The Ukraine".

 

 

And what makes the show  such a crowd pleaser is that in it he's opposed by Russian clowns.

Edited June 3, 2022 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

His career as a comedian, an actor and an owner of a production company continues.

It is now called "The Government of The Ukraine".

 

 

He's also a qualified lawyer and his government is well underway prosecuting those responsible for atrocoties and war crimes

[KhunLA]

On 5/30/2022 at 6:47 PM, Mr Derek said:

It's a pity that Ukraine did not do the decent thing in the beginning, which was to give them independence or at least a referendum, and thereby prevent this mess. Given the way Ukraine has treated the Donbas in recent years it's a fair bet the population will choose to join the Russian Federation after liberation, which, if we call ourselves democratic, should be applauded by everyone in the west.

Anyone who hasn't followed Ukraine's USA led regime changes, before Crimea's independence, and then Donbas' push for independence simply shows extreme ignorance of the whole situation.

 

How Donbas ceded away from Ukraine, along with 30% of the GDP (coal industry), and how Ukraine lobbed more than a few missiles their way, violated treaties signed by both.

 

Once again being duped by MSM ... oh well.

[heybruce]

41 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Anyone who hasn't followed Ukraine's USA led regime changes, before Crimea's independence, and then Donbas' push for independence simply shows extreme ignorance of the whole situation.

 

How Donbas ceded away from Ukraine, along with 30% of the GDP (coal industry), and how Ukraine lobbed more than a few missiles their way, violated treaties signed by both.

 

Once again being duped by MSM ... oh well.

Anyone who thinks the regime change in Ukraine was led by the US and that the Donbas independence movement was not prompted and supported by Russia needs to provide credible sources supporting those views.

[heybruce]

"Russian officials have raised increasingly frustrated requests for greater support during discussions with Beijing in recent weeks, calling on China to live up to its affirmation of a “no limits” partnership made weeks before the war in Ukraine began. But China’s leadership wants to expand assistance for Russia without running afoul of Western sanctions and has set limits on what it will do, according to Chinese and U.S. officials."

"Moscow has on at least two occasions pressed Beijing to offer new forms of economic support — exchanges that one Chinese official described as “tense.”"   https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/06/02/china-support-russia-ukraine/

 

The "special military operation" is going according to plan and causing no problems for Russia.  Riiiggghht.....  ????

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Anyone who thinks the regime change in Ukraine was led by the US and that the Donbas independence movement was not prompted and supported by Russia needs to provide credible sources supporting those views.

https://www.newsweek.com/us-nato-helped-trigger-ukraine-war-its-not-siding-putin-admit-it-opinion-1685554

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

[candide]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Anyone who hasn't followed Ukraine's USA led regime changes, before Crimea's independence, and then Donbas' push for independence simply shows extreme ignorance of the whole situation.

 

How Donbas ceded away from Ukraine, along with 30% of the GDP (coal industry), and how Ukraine lobbed more than a few missiles their way, violated treaties signed by both.

 

Once again being duped by MSM ... oh well.

Loll! And, of course, you don't mention how Russia triggered and supported the Donbas/Donestk rebellion, which has been led by former FSB/GRU members (who had formerly been employed in Chechnya) with the help of a Putin advisor.

 

Below the pedigree of a few Russian key players in the rebellion

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Bezler

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Glazyev

 

Not to mention how the DPR and Russia continuously violated the Minsk  I and Minsk II agreements.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by candide

[KhunLA]

Regional issue, doesn't affect me, and frankly, could care less.  I realize both sides play their games, and people get caught in the middle.  But also believe, most in Donbas did want independence.

 

And another world arms dealer (Ukraine) out of the picture, is simply a plus, for all the nations they sold death toys to.

 

Now I await California & New York to cede from the USA ... hey, one can dream ????

Edited June 3, 2022 by KhunLA

[heybruce]

39 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

https://www.newsweek.com/us-nato-helped-trigger-ukraine-war-its-not-siding-putin-admit-it-opinion-1685554

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

The US clearly wanted the 2014 popular uprising against the corrupt Russian backed President Yanukovych to succeed and one US official handed out cookies to protesters.  Is that your basis for calling the the 2014 revolution a "USA led regime change"?  Pretty weak.

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

doesn't affect me, and frankly, could care less

whatever ...