Ukrainian leaders worried about 'war fatigue' among Western allies amid protracted conflict with Russia

[heybruce]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:31 AM, GrandPapillon said:

you mean like they didn't abandon Afghanistan? ????

 

Right.  If this war is still going on after 20 years I'm sure the western governments will re-consider their support.

[heybruce]

On 6/11/2022 at 6:01 AM, GrandPapillon said:

Germany and France were the lazy ones for the Minsk accord, they were to follow up on the ceasefire and ask Ukraine to comply to the accords that they signed, but of course, Zelensky freshly elected completely ignored that accord and was in clear violation of the spirit of the accord to move things forward.

 

It's the collective laziness of EU leaders that triggered the situation, they knew Russia would react eventually, or maybe they were simply testing Putin to see how far he would go. I guess they have their answers now.

 

Except the EU leaders were not on the font lines and were taking any risk, it's the poor civilians in Ukraine.

 

They played Russian Roulette, and they lost.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain exactly how Ukraine failed to comply with the Minsk accords.

[Bkk Brian]

58 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I'm still waiting for someone to explain exactly how Ukraine failed to comply with the Minsk accords.

They've yet to explain how they failed to comply with the Budapest Memorandum when it gave up all its nuclear weapons in the promise that Russia would never invade

[GrandPapillon]

9 hours ago, heybruce said:

I'm still waiting for someone to explain exactly how Ukraine failed to comply with the Minsk accords.

been done to death on multiple threads, you need to keep up ????

 

[GrandPapillon]

9 hours ago, heybruce said:

Right.  If this war is still going on after 20 years I'm sure the western governments will re-consider their support.

I don't think they will wait that long, next year Biden will probably forget his name

 

and will wonder who is that Zelensky dude who keeps calling him on TV ????

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

been done to death on multiple threads, you need to keep up ????

 

No, I've followed a number of these threads and follow news from different reliable sources.  I know that neither side agreed on the details of the accords and that Russia never admitted to having a military presence in eastern Ukraine, which was a violation of the agreement.  However I don't recall anyone saying what Ukraine had done that violated the accords worse than Russia and the rebels.

 

If no one provides such examples, we will assume they don't exist.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

I don't think they will wait that long, next year Biden will probably forget his name

 

and will wonder who is that Zelensky dude who keeps calling him on TV ????

Wishful thinking on your part.  Biden has excelled in leading the western response to Russia's invasion, and I doubt that Russia's economy and military can last until next year if the war continues as it has been.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

right, by destroying world recovery after Covid, sanctioning the EU with silly restrictions and forcing a gas and oil ban on his EU partners while he is "selling" expensive new toys to Ukraine

 

with friends like that, who needs ennemies ????

 Putin started the war yet you blame all the consequences on Biden.

 

You also suggest that the US dictates European foreign and energy policy.  Total BS, but there are fools who will believe it.

 

Of course Ukraine will not pay for most of the weapons delivered and the world knows it, and you misspelled "enemies", but why quibble over details.  Excellent propaganda.

[GrandPapillon]

nobody is naive enough to believe that Ukraine will not pay eventually for those "expensive" toys

 

one burn every minute, and have a bridge to sell

 

the obligatory accusation of propaganda when obvious questions surface

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

nobody is naive enough to believe that Ukraine will not pay eventually for those "expensive" toys ????

 

one burn every minute, and have a bridge to sell ????

 

No I don't believe anyone is that naive, why were you?

 

Those expensive toys by the way are helping to reclaim its sovereignty.

[GrandPapillon]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Those expensive toys by the way are helping to reclaim its sovereignty.

but that's not going to happen, so all for nothing at the end. Zelensky will eventually surrender and go for peace with Putin, under a round of applause with EU leaders

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

but that's not going to happen, so all for nothing at the end. Zelensky will eventually surrender and go for peace with Putin, under a round of applause with EU leaders

Its already happened, the Russians were pushed away from the first goals already and no, there will never be any surrenders here by Ukraine, if you think that you live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, I doubt even Putin believes that.

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its already happened, the Russians were pushed away from the first goals already and no, there will never be any surrenders here by Ukraine, if you think that you live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, I doubt even Putin believes that.

Zelensky is going to fail, unless we want NATO to intervene

 

Putin is winning slowly but surely on the ground, but he already lost politically

 

Peace negotiation is the only possible exit here, not war.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

 

Zelensky is going to fail, unless we want NATO to intervene

 

Putin is winning slowly but surely on the ground, but he already lost politically

 

Peace negotiation is the only possible exit here, not war.

Of course peace negotiations is likely to be the only way out, that is very different from your  "Zelensky will eventually surrender"

 

As for your "Zelensky is going to fail" there's your Hollywood movie but its fine keep dreaming, RT news does it all the time

 

[GrandPapillon]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

that is very different from your  "Zelensky will eventually surrender"

not in the mind of Zelensky pro-supporters, peace negotiation is "surrender" for them.

 

I agree, it's not really "surrendering" per se, even though it's a lot like it, but it's a noble exit, and sill better than a total defeat

 

I am not looking for Ukraine to be defeated and destroyed, that's my point. Let's stop Putin before he makes more damages to Ukraine. One party is unprepared, and the other was better prepared. Nothing we can do about this.

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33 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

nobody is naive enough to believe that Ukraine will not pay eventually for those "expensive" toys ????

 

one burn every minute, and have a bridge to sell ????

 

the obligatory accusation of propaganda when obvious questions surface ????

There was a piece of legislation passed by both houses of congress and signed into law by the President that clearly designates that it's the United States that is paying for weapons and services, not the Ukraine. The US has a long history of foreign aid. Sometimes it's loans, sometimes its donations and sometimes both. But in this case it's all grants. Of course, if you have any actual evidence to cite, please share it with us. And no, reflexive, evidence free cynicism is not evidence.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

not in the mind of Zelensky pro-supporters, peace negotiation is "surrender" for them.

 

I agree, it's not really "surrendering" per se, even though it's a lot like it, but it's a noble exit, and sill better than a total defeat

 

I am not looking for Ukraine to be defeated and destroyed, that's my point. Let's stop Putin before he makes more damages to Ukraine. One party is unprepared, and the other was better prepared. Nothing we can do about this.

If Ukraine was so unprepared, how is it that they stopped the Kiev offensive dead in its tracks? Ya think it was all last-minute  improvisation?

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

not in the mind of Zelensky pro-supporters, peace negotiation is "surrender" for them.

and in the mind of Putin pro-supporters?

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18 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

you live in Lala land, this is not a Hollywood movie

 

Zelensky is going to fail, unless we want NATO to intervene

 

Putin is winning slowly but surely on the ground, but he already lost politically

 

Peace negotiation is the only possible exit here, not war.

Being a bit premature aren't you. The influx of advanced western weaponry has mostly yet to make its presence felt. Russia, despite what it's current huge materiel advantage, is making very very slow progress. If that's the best they can do with what they've got, what happens when they're opposed by superior armaments?

[heybruce]

53 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

nobody is naive enough to believe that Ukraine will not pay eventually for those "expensive" toys ????

 

one burn every minute, and have a bridge to sell ????

 

the obligatory accusation of propaganda when obvious questions surface ????

I have read many news stories that said the US is sending, supplying, providing, etc. weapons to Ukraine.  I have never read a story stating that the US is selling these weapons or is expecting any kind of payment.  I just did an internet search, still nothing.

 

On what do you base your assumption that Ukraine must pay for these weapons?

 

BTW:  I noticed you didn't reply to the part of the post stating:

 

"You also suggest that the US dictates European foreign and energy policy.  Total BS, but there are fools who will believe it. "

 

Have you conceded that the European nations are not being dictated to by President Biden?

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

and in the mind of Putin pro-supporters?

I am not pro-Putin, I am pro-European, so I wouldn't know ????

 

The pro-Putin will do whatever their dear leader decide to do, so if he wants peace, that would be the right choice

 

Ukraine destroyed is not an option. Russia destroyed or weakened is not an option either.

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

 I just did an internet search, still nothing.

right, because we all know the Pentagon and WH always put all their international deals on the internet ????

 

and we must assume that because it's not on the internet, then those expensive toys are free ????

 

Excuse me if I don't buy it for one second, knowing the story of the US and the Pentagon in particular when it comes to "selling" toys

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I am not pro-Putin, I am pro-European, so I wouldn't know ????

 

The pro-Putin will do whatever their dear leader decide to do, so if he wants peace, that would be the right choice

 

Ukraine destroyed is not an option. Russia destroyed or weakened is not an option either.

I guess the Finns, the Swedes, the Baltic States, etc are all anti-European?

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

I am not pro-Putin, I am pro-European, so I wouldn't know ????

 

The pro-Putin will do whatever their dear leader decide to do, so if he wants peace, that would be the right choice

 

Ukraine destroyed is not an option. Russia destroyed or weakened is not an option either.

Yet its always Zelensky that needs to concede in your posts which says it all and its not going to happen. Russia could stop the war right now by putting down their weapons, if Ukraine stops there will be no Ukraine left.

[heybruce]

41 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

but that's not going to happen, so all for nothing at the end. Zelensky will eventually surrender and go for peace with Putin, under a round of applause with EU leaders

If the war had gone according to Putin's plan with all of Ukraine subdued and a puppet government installed a week after the the invasion it would be correct to say that the western aid provided before-hand was all for nothing.

 

However when some kind of truce or peace is negotiated after fighting the Russian "superpower" to a bloody stand-still it will leave Ukraine as an independent nation.  That is what Putin was trying to destroy.  It also will have exposed Russia's military as so incompetent it couldn't beat a much smaller opponent.  That is not "all for nothing".

[placeholder]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

right, because we all know the Pentagon and WH always put all their international deals on the internet ????

 

and we must assume that because it's not on the internet, then those expensive toys are free ????

 

yeah, one born every minute. Excuse me if I don't buy it for one second, knowing the story of the US and the Pentagon in particular when it comes to "selling" toys

 

 

 

 

Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush got into a lot of trouble just for trying to pull some illegal arms sales shenanigas on a very small scale. To contend, without evidence, that a 40 billion dollar foreign aid deal is really a sale, is obviously nonsense.

What's more, NATO's interests are in a strong Ukrainian economy that can discourage Russian aggression. Saddling it with a huge amount of debt would be self-defeating.

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yet its always Zelensky that needs to concede in your posts which says it all and its not going to happen. Russia could stop the war right now by putting down their weapons, if Ukraine stops there will be no Ukraine left.

Zelensky is unprepared and being invaded, he is in a weak spot.

 

Russia is not going to stop the war for all the reasons we explained before. It's too late now. We should have acted before.

 

Like I said, unless we want to start WW3 and have NATO involved, then Ukraine will fall one way or another.

 

[placeholder]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:17 PM, GrandPapillon said:

been done to death on multiple threads, you need to keep up ????

 

As I already pointed out to you elsewhere, one of the big stumbling blocks was the clause in Minsk 2 that prohibited outside nations from intervening in the conflict. Russia denied that it was intervening in the conflict therefore  it was irrelevant in their case.

And most reports on the outcome of the Minsk agreements assign varying levels of blame to both sides.

[heybruce]

8 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

right, because we all know the Pentagon and WH always put all their international deals on the internet ????

 

and we must assume that because it's not on the internet, then those expensive toys are free ????

 

yeah, one born every minute. Excuse me if I don't buy it for one second, knowing the story of the US and the Pentagon in particular when it comes to "selling" toys

In other words, you have nothing to support your claim that Ukraine will have to pay for the weapons sent to it, other than your claim to know something about the US and the Pentagon.

 

I suspect you know little or nothing about this topic.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

Zelensky is unprepared and being invaded, he is in a weak spot.

 

Russia is not going to stop the war for all the reasons we explained before. It's too late now. We should have acted before.

 

Like I said, unless we want to start WW3 and have NATO involved, then Ukraine will fall one way or another.

 

I don't know about Zelensky being unprepared, whatever that means, but Ukraine was certainly prepared. If it wasn't prepared enough it was only for want of materiel. Clearly in training and strategy, its military is far in advance of the Russians.