Pope Francis visiting Canada to apologize for Indigenous abuse in Catholic residential schools

[Scott]

Pope Francis visiting Canada to apologize for Indigenous abuse in Catholic residential schools

By Rob Picheta, Livia Borghese and Cecilia Armstrong, CNN

 

Pope Francis will meet with Indigenous leaders during the trip.

(CNN)Pope Francis departed Rome on Sunday for a week-long trip to Edmonton, Canada, where he's set to apologize for the Catholic Church's role in the abuse of Canadian Indigenous children in residential schools.

The Vatican has called the trip a "penitential pilgrimage," and the Pope will be welcomed in Edmonton on Sunday by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Mary Simon, the Governor General of Canada.

While in the country he will meet with Indigenous groups and address the scandal of abuse and erasure of indigenous culture in the country's residential schools.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/24/americas/pope-francis-canada-visit-intl/index.html

 

[Hanaguma]

Good on the Pope for showing such patience, especially after receiving a delegation of indigenous leaders at the Vatican such a short time ago. 

 

Now, the article from CNN contains several mistakes.  Yes, tragically thousands of children died in the residential schools. Most from diseases common to the times- tuberculosis, influenza, etc. As did thousands of non-native children. It was sadly common at the time. Conditions in residential schools made such outbreaks worse though. Dormitory living made any sickness spread easily. 

 

Also, "hundreds of unmarked graves" were discovered, but the implication that these were secret graves of murdered children is unproven and preposterous. At some sites, they are simply local cemeteries that fell into disrepair and neglect. There is no evidence of any children being killed and secretly buried anywhere.

 

It was an obligation of the Federal Government to educate native children. It was put into treaties with indigenous groups at the insistence of those groups, because they wanted their children to have better futures. The government didnt do this on their own, out of evil or malign intent.

 

There was no genocidal intent. The intent was assimilation. As it was with all the immigrants to Canada who came in the same time period. Today we know better, but at that time it was considered best educational practice.

 

There was criminal behavior by a minority of those entrusted with caring for the children. Those people need to be named, shamed, and prosecuted. The pope already apologized in the Vatican, now he is being magnanimous and doing so again in Canada. I applaud him for that.

[Credo]

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Good on the Pope for showing such patience, especially after receiving a delegation of indigenous leaders at the Vatican such a short time ago. 

 

Now, the article from CNN contains several mistakes.  Yes, tragically thousands of children died in the residential schools. Most from diseases common to the times- tuberculosis, influenza, etc. As did thousands of non-native children. It was sadly common at the time. Conditions in residential schools made such outbreaks worse though. Dormitory living made any sickness spread easily. 

 

Also, "hundreds of unmarked graves" were discovered, but the implication that these were secret graves of murdered children is unproven and preposterous. At some sites, they are simply local cemeteries that fell into disrepair and neglect. There is no evidence of any children being killed and secretly buried anywhere.

 

It was an obligation of the Federal Government to educate native children. It was put into treaties with indigenous groups at the insistence of those groups, because they wanted their children to have better futures. The government didnt do this on their own, out of evil or malign intent.

 

There was no genocidal intent. The intent was assimilation. As it was with all the immigrants to Canada who came in the same time period. Today we know better, but at that time it was considered best educational practice.

 

There was criminal behavior by a minority of those entrusted with caring for the children. Those people need to be named, shamed, and prosecuted. The pope already apologized in the Vatican, now he is being magnanimous and doing so again in Canada. I applaud him for that.

So, it was OK to forcibly remove children from their parents?  It was all in good faith, so it was OK?

 

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

So, it was OK to forcibly remove children from their parents?  It was all in good faith, so it was OK?

 

At the time, yes. Although how many were forcibly taken, how many were taken at the request of the parents, and how many were taken as a result of parental neglect/abuse can be debated. They weren't all kidnapped in the dead of night by evil priests, in spite of what the media wants us to believe.

 

Native communities in Canada were scattered and tiny. There was no practical way to school the kids in their own home towns/villages/encampments.  So residential schools were set up as places to gather the kids in one place and educate them. Not a great choice, but the only other option was no schooling whatsoever.  Again, this was done as a result of treaty obligations requested by native leaders. It was not a unilateral decision on the part of the Church or government. 

[Credo]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

At the time, yes. Although how many were forcibly taken, how many were taken at the request of the parents, and how many were taken as a result of parental neglect/abuse can be debated. They weren't all kidnapped in the dead of night by evil priests, in spite of what the media wants us to believe.

 

Native communities in Canada were scattered and tiny. There was no practical way to school the kids in their own home towns/villages/encampments.  So residential schools were set up as places to gather the kids in one place and educate them. Not a great choice, but the only other option was no schooling whatsoever.  Again, this was done as a result of treaty obligations requested by native leaders. It was not a unilateral decision on the part of the Church or government. 

So, once again it was OK to forcibly remove children from their parents?   

 

[Bkk Brian]

22 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Now, the article from CNN contains several mistakes.  Yes, tragically thousands of children died in the residential schools. Most from diseases common to the times- tuberculosis, influenza, etc. As did thousands of non-native children. It was sadly common at the time. Conditions in residential schools made such outbreaks worse though. Dormitory living made any sickness spread easily. 

 

Also, "hundreds of unmarked graves" were discovered, but the implication that these were secret graves of murdered children is unproven and preposterous. At some sites, they are simply local cemeteries that fell into disrepair and neglect. There is no evidence of any children being killed and secretly buried anywhere.

 

It was an obligation of the Federal Government to educate native children. It was put into treaties with indigenous groups at the insistence of those groups, because they wanted their children to have better futures. The government didnt do this on their own, out of evil or malign intent.

 

There was no genocidal intent. The intent was assimilation. As it was with all the immigrants to Canada who came in the same time period. Today we know better, but at that time it was considered best educational practice.

 

There was criminal behavior by a minority of those entrusted with caring for the children. Those people need to be named, shamed, and prosecuted. The pope already apologized in the Vatican, now he is being magnanimous and doing so again in Canada. I applaud him for that.

You claim the article contains several mistakes, can you point me to a link that substantiates that claim that the deaths were due to the causes you mentioned?

 

The article says: "Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission has reported that more than 4,000 Indigenous children died either from neglect or abuse in residential schools"

 

Full report here: https://nctr.ca/records/reports/

 

 

[KhunLA]

What is with people apologizing for something they had no control over.  Especially if happened before their time.  

 

As silly as people apologizing for being born white ... ????

 

2022 ... catch up & stop crying about the past.

Edited July 25, 2022 by KhunLA

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, Credo said:

So, once again it was OK to forcibly remove children from their parents?   

 

Yes, as I said, in certain circumstances.   In others, no.

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You claim the article contains several mistakes, can you point me to a link that substantiates that claim that the deaths were due to the causes you mentioned?

 

The article says: "Canada's Truth and Reconciliation Commission has reported that more than 4,000 Indigenous children died either from neglect or abuse in residential schools"

 

Full report here: https://nctr.ca/records/reports/

 

 

 I didn't say that all the deaths were due to disease and illness. But the article failed to mention it, instead attempting to paint the picture of malicious and neglectful staff .  Perhaps they consider mortality due to disease to be neglect, but at the time it was very common in Canada. My grandmother lost 2 siblings to Spanish Flu and TB, it happened all the time. 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

 I didn't say that all the deaths were due to disease and illness. But the article failed to mention it, instead attempting to paint the picture of malicious and neglectful staff .  Perhaps they consider mortality due to disease to be neglect, but at the time it was very common in Canada. My grandmother lost 2 siblings to Spanish Flu and TB, it happened all the time. 

This is what you claimed:

 

37 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Now, the article from CNN contains several mistakes.  Yes, tragically thousands of children died in the residential schools. Most from diseases common to the times- tuberculosis, influenza, etc

Like I said can you point me to a link that substantiates that claim that the deaths were due to the causes you mentioned? Did you bother to read the source report?

Edited July 25, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

What is with people apologizing for something they had no control over.  Especially if happened before their time.  

 

As silly as people apologizing for being born white ... ????

 

2022 ... catch up & stop crying about the past.

You may find that the parents of some of those children forcibly taken and who consequently died appreciate the apology.

[Hanaguma]

12 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

This is what you claimed:

 

Like I said can you point me to a link that substantiates that claim that the deaths were due to the causes you mentioned?

Here is something for you to ponder:

 

"Prior to the 1950s, death rates among children in IRS schools were appallingly high — far higher than for non-aboriginal school children. By today’s standards, many IRS schools were poorly constructed, poorly ventilated, and seriously overcrowded with children who were living on an inadequate diet. But were the churches primarily responsible for these serious shortcomings? Not at all.

 

https://theinterim.com/columnist/rory-leishman/the-truth-about-residential-schools/

Edited July 25, 2022 by Scott
Edited for Fair Use

[Chomper Higgot]

Why am I not in the least bit surprised to see a member excusing, obfuscating and presenting strawman arguments to defend the appalling abuses for which the Pope is now apologizing?!

 

This is a shameful episode in the history of Canada and the Catholic Church in Canada.

 

There are no excuses for any of this.

[mrfill]

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Here is something for you to ponder:

 

"Prior to the 1950s, death rates among children in IRS schools were appallingly high — far higher than for non-aboriginal school children. By today’s standards, many IRS schools were poorly constructed, poorly ventilated, and seriously overcrowded with children who were living on an inadequate diet. But were the churches primarily responsible for these serious shortcomings? Not at all. It was the federal government that paid for the construction of the IRS schools and set their annual operating budgets.

Would the Indigenous children who died at a residential school have been more likely to survive if they had remained at home with their parents? Probably not. Up to the middle of the 20th century, death rates on Indian reserves were also appallingly high. According to the Final Report of the TRC, “For Aboriginal children, the relocation to residential schools was generally no healthier than their homes had been on the reserve.”

 

https://theinterim.com/columnist/rory-leishman/the-truth-about-residential-schools/

What about after the 1950s? This abuse was going on until 1996

[Hanaguma]

3 hours ago, mrfill said:

What about after the 1950s? This abuse was going on until 1996

The peak of the system was the 1920-30s. By the fifties, the schools were being closed down. There was enough infrastructure in place for native kids to go to local/provincially run schools.  People also began to realize that assimilation policy for education in general was a bad idea and more modern ideas began to take root.  By the fifties, many residential schools were either day schools, or residential but the students could go home on weekends.  Before that, the geography of Canada dictated a lot of what happened.

[Iamfalang]

Apologies is the absolute beginning towards admitting fault.  Then it depends...

 

In this case, the CChurch has 1000000000 zillion dollars.    I would expect a massive payment to ......... (no idea, but many people, groups, corporations, etc....) 

 

 

[Hanaguma]

34 minutes ago, Iamfalang said:

Apologies is the absolute beginning towards admitting fault.  Then it depends...

 

In this case, the CChurch has 1000000000 zillion dollars.    I would expect a massive payment to ......... (no idea, but many people, groups, corporations, etc....) 

 

 

Well, there was a $40 billion settlement by the Canadian government.... is that massive enough?

[Stargeezr]

I wonder just how much money, the Catholic church will pay to the people that they affected? Same goes for any other Church, like the Anglicans, how much will they pay?  Just my thought on this situation.

[kwonitoy]

He arrived in Edmonton yesterday.

Unbelievable amount of security, roads closed, an armada of police vehicles, all following a white Fiat 500 with the Pope riding shotgun with the window open and waving at people.

 

[hotchilli]

On 7/25/2022 at 12:27 AM, Scott said:

While in the country he will meet with Indigenous groups and address the scandal of abuse and erasure of indigenous culture in the country's residential schools.

Catholic indoctrination..

[hotchilli]

21 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

There was no genocidal intent. The intent was assimilation. As it was with all the immigrants to Canada who came in the same time period. Today we know better, but at that time it was considered best educational practice

To force children away from homes and parents to be imprisoned in dormitories and forced to forget their own cultures teachings?

Try again.

 

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, hotchilli said:

To force children away from homes and parents to be imprisoned in dormitories and forced to forget their own cultures teachings?

Try again.

 

Don't need to "try again". At the time, that was considered best practice for education. Same thing happened to the thousands of immigrant kids in Canada. They weren't allowed to speak their native tongues in school and were forced to learn Canadian values. Of course, today we know better. 

 

Plus, there is no evidence that they were all forced. Many attended voluntarily, many were 'forced' by their parents and families, etc.  At this time, school attendence was made compulsory for ALL children in Canada, ot just natives. The image of evil priests ripping crying children from their parents' arms seems to be a fantasy. To the extent that children were forced into school attendance, there were often extenuating circumstances.

[pegman]

I wonder if any of the 1st nations that have found these thousands of suspected graves with  ground penetrating radar will ever dig one up to see what is there? 

[Bkk Brian]

Pope Francis: Pontiff says he is 'deeply sorry' to Canadian residential school survivors

 

Pope Francis expressed "sorrow, indignation and shame" for the actions of many members of the Roman Catholic Church, who ran and operated majority of residential schools in Canada. The 85-year-old Pope called the schools system a "disastrous error" and asked for forgiveness "for the evil committed by so many Christians" against indigenous peoples. Bruce Allan, a survivor of one of the residential schools who was in attendance, said it was emotional to hear the Pope's apology, but many are still looking for action from the pontiff.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62296834

[Hanaguma]

33 minutes ago, pegman said:

I wonder if any of the 1st nations that have found these thousands of suspected graves with  ground penetrating radar will ever dig one up to see what is there? 

At the original Kamloops site, the answer is no.  There are "consultations" with "elders" and "keepers of knowledge" in the community, but no actual forensic action.  Unfortunately but as I suspect you know, unsurprisingly, the media ran with the story and embellished it without waiting for evidence. 

[pegman]

40 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Pope Francis: Pontiff says he is 'deeply sorry' to Canadian residential school survivors

 

Pope Francis expressed "sorrow, indignation and shame" for the actions of many members of the Roman Catholic Church, who ran and operated majority of residential schools in Canada. The 85-year-old Pope called the schools system a "disastrous error" and asked for forgiveness "for the evil committed by so many Christians" against indigenous peoples. Bruce Allan, a survivor of one of the residential schools who was in attendance, said it was emotional to hear the Pope's apology, but many are still looking for action from the pontiff.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62296834

The Pope did apologize again today for what Catholics did to  indigenous children at residential schools in Canada.  He did not apologize for the role the Catholic Church had in what took place. Seems all parties are lawyered up on this one. 

[thaibook]

I assume the indigenous people will be apologising for the scalping and other forms of murder committed on missionaries and immigrants as surely everyone is in favour of unrestricted immigration.

 

This is the man who grovels in front of the Chinese Communist party allowing them to choose bishops, banning religious education, and imposing "hymns" to the greatness of the emperor, Mao and the CCP in churches.  This is the man who bans traditional Latin Mass but apologises to cannibals and lauds people who practiced slavery and human sacrifices on a massive scale.  What a man.  Pray for him.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by thaibook

[ozimoron]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:48 AM, Hanaguma said:

At the time, yes. Although how many were forcibly taken, how many were taken at the request of the parents, and how many were taken as a result of parental neglect/abuse can be debated. They weren't all kidnapped in the dead of night by evil priests, in spite of what the media wants us to believe.

 

Native communities in Canada were scattered and tiny. There was no practical way to school the kids in their own home towns/villages/encampments.  So residential schools were set up as places to gather the kids in one place and educate them. Not a great choice, but the only other option was no schooling whatsoever.  Again, this was done as a result of treaty obligations requested by native leaders. It was not a unilateral decision on the part of the Church or government. 

They were kidnapped in broad daylight by priests as were Australia's "stolen generation". Then they were often subjected to horrific child abuse, both sexually and by neglect. The unmarked graves are testament to the neglect. It's not just a few bad apples in the priesthood. The worldwide pattern of child abuse at the hands of the church demonstrates that the church has been little more than a haven for child abusers.

Edited July 26, 2022 by ozimoron

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

They were kidnapped in broad daylight by priests as were Australia's "stolen generation". Then they were often subjected to horrific child abuse, both sexually and by neglect. The unmarked graves are testament to the neglect. It's not just a few bad apples in the priesthood. The worldwide pattern of child abuse at the hands of the church demonstrates that the church has been little more than a haven for child abusers.

Yes there was abuse at the schools, which is despicable. Unfortunately, we now know that the priesthood as a profession attracts both the best and the worst of men. In those cases, the victims need to be compensated and the criminals punished/shamed.  The schools themselves were poorly funded, especially in the beginning, and the federal government contracted the Church to run them as the government didnt have the necessary capacity to do so. Churches already existed across the country (both Catholic and Anglican) so they were the natural choice for the program.

 

As an aside, both my wife and my son attended Catholic schools and the staff were exemplary. We aren't Catholic ourselves but the schools had well earned reputations for quality education. 

 

 

The "unmarked graves" have not yet been proven to exist. A few unmarked cemeteries have been found around some schools, but they were known in the communities for generations. Problem was they fell into disuse and disrepair. They were community cemeteries where all were buried, not secret places where evil school staff hid their victims.  Other places have had ground penetrating radar passed through, but no evidence of anything has been found. And curiously the local native communities don't seem to be in any hurry to conduct forensic investigations.

 

Your image of roving bands of priests ripping screaming children from wailing mothers is not accurate. Given the small number of priests and the vastness of the Canadian north, it just isn't realistic. It is a great image for publicity purposes, but that is all. Maybe a few cases but certainly not the norm. 

[ozimoron]

19 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Well, there was a $40 billion settlement by the Canadian government.... is that massive enough?

 

16 hours ago, Stargeezr said:

I wonder just how much money, the Catholic church will pay to the people that they affected? Same goes for any other Church, like the Anglicans, how much will they pay?  Just my thought on this situation.

Whatever a court decides. That can be appealed and appealed again.