Bread falling after cooking in the oven

[Kenny202]

Been baking my own bread for about 5 years and always get a nice rise, and the texture of the bread always lovely but never comes out of the oven at the rise height it was when I put it in? Wholemeal / multi grain more so than plain white. I prove in a bowl for 2 hours then place the shaped loaves on another tray to prove for a further 2 - 4 hours. Usually prove them in the oven with temp set a tad over room temp. Tepid at most. Have tried everything....a bit more water...a bit less. Nothing seems to make much difference. The loaves always come out of the oven with a decrease in the proven height of around 10-15%. I would have thought they would rise even further? Anyone have any ideas or is it just the way it is? Maybe I am proofing it too long? 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Kenny202

[ezzra]

Baking breads is an art of a sort and without knowing what are the ingredients, the methods and the oven setting you're using it will be pretty hard to tell whey is it happening to you, try to pick a new bread recipe and follow it to the tee and see how you go..

[james.d]

Hi Kenny,

 

I'm no expert by any means, but my bread (I posted here somewhere) wasn't rising as much as l expected, I watched a lot of videos and now proof mine overnight in the fridge and the results have really improved. 

I think the proofing height will decrease when shaped?

Again, I am not an expert and this is for no knead bread in a dutch oven.

 

https://youtu.be/Xw_NgS8iqhU

 

 

 

[Kenny202]

Just now, james.d said:

Hi Kenny,

 

I'm no expert by any means, but my bread (I posted here somewhere) wasn't rising as much as l expected, I watched a lot of videos and now proof mine overnight in the fridge and the results have really improved. 

I think the proofing height will decrease when shaped?

Again, I am not an expert and this is for no knead bread in a dutch oven.

https://youtu.be/Xw_NgS8iqhU

 

 

 

Oh mine rises alright, rises hugely actually it just deflates a bit in the oven when I hit it with the heat. Like it shrinks a bit or something. I do knead mine in a commercial mixer and I know I knead it thoroughly (but not too much). Done a bit more reading and I reckon it might be over proofing. The theory being if you leave it to proof too long, your yeast is basically exhausted by the time you put it in the oven, and it is no longer pushing upward or has the strength to keep it up. I reckon proofing in the fridge would help a lot and apparently makes for a better structure. Usually not organized enough to plan that far ahead. 

 

The bread is always really nice, lovely texture and not cakey or doughy but really wish I could keep it at the height it is when it goes in the oven

[james.d]

8 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Oh mine rises alright, rises hugely actually it just deflates a bit in the oven when I hit it with the heat. Like it shrinks a bit or something. I do knead mine in a commercial mixer and I know I knead it thoroughly (but not too much). Done a bit more reading and I reckon it might be over proofing. The theory being if you leave it to proof too long, your yeast is basically exhausted by the time you put it in the oven, and it is no longer pushing upward or has the strength to keep it up. I reckon proofing in the fridge would help a lot and apparently makes for a better structure. Usually not organized enough to plan that far ahead. 

 

The bread is always really nice, lovely texture and not cakey or doughy but really wish I could keep it at the height it is when it goes in the oven

I use a danish bread whisk as l only bake 1 at a time every couple of days and don't have a mixer..

Good luck and if you have the time let us know how you get on.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/13-inch-dough-mixer-large-wooden-mixer-with-stainless-steel-ring-traditional-dutch-mixer-baking-tool-dough-whisk-i3697061069-s13984943477.html?spm=a2o4m.tm80108725.min-pdp.1.2e3ewN7xwN7xJE.2e3ewN7xwN7xJE

[Kenny202]

18 minutes ago, james.d said:

I use a danish bread whisk as l only bake 1 at a time every couple of days and don't have a mixer..

Good luck and if you have the time let us know how you get on.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/13-inch-dough-mixer-large-wooden-mixer-with-stainless-steel-ring-traditional-dutch-mixer-baking-tool-dough-whisk-i3697061069-s13984943477.html?spm=a2o4m.tm80108725.min-pdp.1.2e3ewN7xwN7xJE.2e3ewN7xwN7xJE

Thanks mate. I reckon you would need strong wrists to use that whisk! lol. Do you pull it through the dough or something? They reckon never let a baker get close enough to strangle you....Arm's like they have you are toast lol. Will let you know how the it goes when I cut down the proofing time. Not even really sure if it is better to prove twice? I prove it in a bowl first....then punch it down, shape it and put on the tray and proof it again where the loaves rise into shape and full height

[Dmaxdan]

This could be caused by a number of reasons.

 

Too much liquid.

 

Over proofing of the dough.

 

Gluten too weak, try upping the quantity of strong bread flour in the mix.

[Kenny202]

Just now, Dmaxdan said:

This could be caused by a number of reasons.

 

Too much liquid.

 

Over proofing of the dough.

 

Gluten too weak, try upping the quantity of strong bread flour in the mix.

I've sort of exhausted the too much liquid thing I think. Reduced the water content right down until the mixer was struggling to knead it. You know when you make bread for a long time you get to know your mix. Gluten too weak? hmmmm Always use white bread flour and would be 95% of the mix. I don't use wholemeal flour as such but broken whole wheat, pumpkin seeds, sesame, flax etc. I must say though do get the loaf falling even with white bread. I do often wonder as to the quality of the yeast and flour here though. I use the Swan brand.

 

Which leaves me with proofing the likeliest offender. As a rule of thumb, time wise what would you suggest as guide times for the first proofing (covered in the bowl) and second (after shaping)? I usually leave it in the bowl for the first run, possibly 2 to 3 hours. I know they say after the dough doubles in size and for me that would probably be an hour or so.  I didn't know there was any harm in leaving it longer, in fact I thought it would be better. Second rise I usually punch down, shape the loaves, slit them and put them in a lukewarm oven. And there maybe the problem because I tend to leave them proofing like that until they don't seem to be rising anymore. May be 2 to 4 hours. That would suggest the yeast has petered out right?

 

Like I said before going in the oven the loaves rise like champions. Possibly 3 or 4 times more than the initial dough, certainly a lot more than double. its only when they go in the oven they deflate / flatten a bit. And it's not from knocking them about either as I proof them in the oven....once they have proved to an acceptable level I just turn on the heat...so they aren't being moved about.

 

Any help appreciated

 

 

[james.d]

21 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Thanks mate. I reckon you would need strong wrists to use that whisk! lol. Do you pull it through the dough or something? They reckon never let a baker get close enough to strangle you....Arm's like they have you are toast lol. Will let you know how the it goes when I cut down the proofing time. Not even really sure if it is better to prove twice? I prove it in a bowl first....then punch it down, shape it and put on the tray and proof it again where the loaves rise into shape and full height

Kenny, I just use it basically as a slow whisk/stirrer for 2 - 3 minutes and don't proof mine twice.

 

It sounds like your making a more professional bread than mine.

 

Best of luck.

 

 

[Kenny202]

Professional schmeshanal lol. Nah I don't think so mate. Been doing it a long time though. At least at the point now where results are at least consistent. I put a lot of that down to proving it gently in the oven at just above room temp. I was getting results all over the place before, hit and miss and seemed to have to do with the humidity / heat etc on the day. Attached a few photos of bread I made this morning. Like it is super light, soft and airy. Bread back quite a few years ago often come out really dense, like it hasn't risen. Just annoying me it doesn't keep the same structure as when I turn the oven on. 

 

Bread is what you want it to be and that always isn't how it would be from a bakery. Some "accidents" actually turn out to be very nice.  

 

I just do mine on a loaf tray now. I don't use deep loaf tins. I like the extra crust etc you get from free form and finds it cooks a lot more evenly.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Kenny202

[recom273]

I stumbled upon this guys channel the other month - he doesnt so much give recipes, more like an explanation. I think he has some good content.

 

You might find some info here - I slow proof my bread in the fridge as someone else mentions above, but I dont tend to make loaves, and then sometimes for no apparent reason, my foolproof method just crashes out.

 

 

[Kenny202]

10 minutes ago, recom273 said:

I stumbled upon this guys channel the other month - he doesnt so much give recipes, more like an explanation. I think he has some good content.

 

You might find some info here - I slow proof my bread in the fridge as someone else mentions above, but I dont tend to make loaves, and then sometimes for no apparent reason, my foolproof method just crashes out.

 

 

Thanks bro, will definitely check it out. With bread its all the little fundamental things. My results were hit and miss up until 3 years ago. Every 4th or fifth loaf would be a dud. Some better than others...and I am accurate with my measurements. I could only put it down to the climate here, humidity or cold makes a huge difference. I have always kneaded by bread in a mixer but my bread went next level a couple of years ago when I got the 10L Kitchenaid Commercial mixer. In fact anything I make cakes, dough etc. Much much better results. 

[recom273]

36 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Thanks bro, will definitely check it out. With bread its all the little fundamental things. My results were hit and miss up until 3 years ago. Every 4th or fifth loaf would be a dud. Some better than others...and I am accurate with my measurements. I could only put it down to the climate here, humidity or cold makes a huge difference. I have always kneaded by bread in a mixer but my bread went next level a couple of years ago when I got the 10L Kitchenaid Commercial mixer. In fact anything I make cakes, dough etc. Much much better results. 

Tell me about it .. we have a lean to kitchen on the side of our rental, it gets so hot, the time of day can be a factor. YouTube recipes need a bit of work before the result is acceptable, because of the factors mentioned and also the ingredients.

 

After years of dithering, I finally bought a kitchenaid artisan, agreed, it provides a much better result, also it keeps everything in one mixing bowl, no chance of whisks falling over, or dough everywhere, was a wise investment, it keeps her from moaning about the mess.

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, recom273 said:

Tell me about it .. we have a lean to kitchen on the side of our rental, it gets so hot, the time of day can be a factor. YouTube recipes need a bit of work before the result is acceptable, because of the factors mentioned and also the ingredients.

 

After years of dithering, I finally bought a kitchenaid artisan, agreed, it provides a much better result, also it keeps everything in one mixing bowl, no chance of whisks falling over, or dough everywhere, was a wise investment, it keeps her from moaning about the mess.

I think the flour here is a big factor too, very inconsistent, and god knows how the yeast is stored prior to going on the shelf. Possibly out sitting in 42 degree heat on a pallet somewhere

 

[Kenny202]

8 hours ago, recom273 said:

I stumbled upon this guys channel the other month - he doesnt so much give recipes, more like an explanation. I think he has some good content.

 

You might find some info here - I slow proof my bread in the fridge as someone else mentions above, but I dont tend to make loaves, and then sometimes for no apparent reason, my foolproof method just crashes out.

 

 

That guy is great. Really good no non sense info. And he is 100% right I have never made bread from a recipe worked out. Has so much to do with your ingredients and hear chefs all the time saying all flours are different, even from the same brand. Takes a year or two to get the feel of the dough, feel and look of when it is properly kneaded. Again I am pretty sure I am proving mine too long. Might still put it in the oven but with no heat. I'll do the first proof under an hour or when it doubles and then a lot less time on the second proof. Should make a big difference. Mine comes up and spills over the side like he described. 

[Kenny202]

Made another couple of loaves this morning. Really cut down on the first rise. And also on the 2nd proving after shaping. Definitely a better shape and didn't fall. But in truth probably the same overall mass as my other loaves even after falling. Just this one is higher where the other one more flat and spread out

 

[Denim]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:33 AM, Kenny202 said:

Maybe I am proofing it too long? 

I think so. No expert but I only proof in bowl for 30 minutes then again for 30 minutes once in baking tin. Don't get any drop unless i accidently touch  it pre bake

[Denim]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:53 AM, james.d said:

this is for no knead bread in a dutch oven.

Must take forever to bake !!!

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dutch oven

[brianburi]

Kenny hopefully I can provide some suggestions and advice on your baking woes.

Keep your yeast in a container/plastic bag in the fridge once you have opened a new packet.

Modern yeasts are quite powerful now, with the British company "Allison Easy bake yeast" you can get away with just one rise.  Mix, shape , proof,  bake. Unless you have UK buddies who can get you that we are all stuck with the made in Vietnam stuff over here which is all good too.

 

Have a look at your water content in your recipe, if it is a very slack dough and you are not an expert shaper they will spread out before going in the oven.   Baking tins, and plastic round bowls are good items for keeping a bread in shape.

 

For fermentation time, watch the bread dough as it rises, in the temps here it will do that quickly.

I keep my doughs covered in plastic bags for about 1 hour, give the dough a quick stretch and fold and put them in the fridge for about 1 hour. This keeps the bread dough quite cool, you don't really want dough over 25c.  Those internal temp gauges are good for this.

 Bench rest/pre shape and a quick rest before final shaping and again with the temps here a second rise for 45 mins to 1 hour. Again watch the dough, that's the secret with baking....

The poke test is still a good test to see if the bread is about ready for the oven.

 

Oven temperatures for baking bread is a hugely debatable topic, along with steam for ovens etc.

I like to get the oven at a very hot temp 220C/230c.  Spray the loaves with water and in oven at that temp for 5mins or so.  This gives a really good oven spring. When you see the loaves almost doubling in size, you know you've cracked it. Lower the temp to about 190c and bake to done.  If in tins I take them out just to get them baked all round. 

 

In the bakery I worked in we never had those bright shiny tins. All the trays and tins were black metal types.  The meisterchef said the shiny ones reflect heat and the bread takes to long to bake....  <deleted>, but bakers have many such secrets and rarely give much away in advice...

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by brianburi
spilt tea

[Kenny202]

As far as water content goes the best initial guide is the dough shouldn't stick to the sides of your mixer bowl or work bench if you are kneading by hand. Adjust as required. Probably easier to make a wetter dough drier by adding flour as you knead rather than trying to make dry dough more moist. Aka if anything err on the side of a little too much water. Once you get it right just record it all. I usually use 1kg of bread flour to 3 and 1/4 cup of water....but that is my measuring cup and they all seem to be different.

 

I probably use more yeast than I should....32 grams for the 1 kilo flour. The bread never tastes yeasty and always rises well / fast. I suspect the yeast here not fantastic. I do keep mine in a sealed container in the fridge but you don't know how the shop has stored it beforehand or how long it was sitting out in the sun on a pallet. Will keep up to abut 2 years. I also don't add the yeast to the tepid water as many seem to do. I add the flour, sugar, salt and yeast in a bowl. Give it a good whisk together then lastly add the tepid water.

 

As the guy above I would say first rise about an hour or until dough doubles. Punch it down get all the air out of it. Stretch it more or double it over a few times. Then I halve it, shape the loaves and put three diagonal deep cuts on the top of each loaf. I do mine straight in a tray on a silicone mat (see photo). Never had a lot of luck with baking tins. Then I sit the bread / tray on the bottom shelf of the oven for the final proof. Usually 2 hours.

 

When I am ready to cook it, the bread already in the cold oven, turn it on full whack (230) and 30 mins does the trick for me. If you like your bread more on the moist side 28 minutes.

[james.d]

Being a novice bread maker l didn't know there are different yeasts. I usually use the gold SAF instant yeast, but saw they have different types 

I've ordered the red as l don't add sugar to my bread recipe but curious if anyone has tried it already?

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/saf-instant-yeast-i2839983354-s10364540822.html?spm=a2o4m.tm80108896.min-pdp.1.67069RYP9RYPtC.67069RYP9RYPtC

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, james.d said:

Being a novice bread maker l didn't know there are different yeasts. I usually use the gold SAF instant yeast, but saw they have different types 

I've ordered the red as l don't add sugar to my bread recipe but curious if anyone has tried it already?

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/saf-instant-yeast-i2839983354-s10364540822.html?spm=a2o4m.tm80108896.min-pdp.1.67069RYP9RYPtC.67069RYP9RYPtC

We use 'red' (photo) or that's what's in the freezer now.

Have also used 'Bruggeman' brand.

 

500g from Makro, I think.  Keeps well in the freezer.

Why no sugar ?  I use honey sometimes.

 

I see Bruggeman on LAZ, so may want to buy there if can't find locally.

Makro carries if you are near one, a bit cheaper.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2858496566-s10426607900.html?spm=a2o4m.cart.0.0.30486108P2u2Qr&urlFlag=true

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by KhunLA

[james.d]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

We use 'red' (photo) or that's what's in the freezer now.

Have also used 'Bruggeman' brand.

 

500g from Makro, I think.  Keeps well in the freezer.

Why no sugar ?  I use honey sometimes.

 

I see Bruggeman on LAZ, so may want to buy there if can't find locally.

Makro carries if you are near one, a bit cheaper.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2858496566-s10426607900.html?spm=a2o4m.cart.0.0.30486108P2u2Qr&urlFlag=true

 

I'll see what the red SAF is like and try a different after that..

I make 'artisan' bread as l have have a Dutch oven and it's no knead.

I'll try for a crusty loaf in a square tin one day....

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[james.d]

53 minutes ago, james.d said:

I'll see what the red SAF is like and try a different after that..

I make 'artisan' bread as l have have a Dutch oven and it's no knead.

I'll try for a crusty loaf in a square tin one day....

Thanks for your feedback.

 

I failed to add the image of what l

 would like to bake