One question concerning a Last Will and Testament

[Mickeymaus]

26 minutes ago, Keith5588 said:

@JimGant  Thanks again for good solid information and advice.

Just before I wrote my Wills I read on the internet that a farang died but had no Will. All his assets went to his family in his home country. His girlfriend / partner of many years, who looked after him for many years especially his last few years had to pay for the funeral but received nothing.
I therefore visited the bank to have her open a Fixed account which I then transferred 400,000 baht into.  Then I wrote the Wills.
My Wills are also very simple except my bank accounts are in my name and I also have a car and Scooter in my name.
I did also write and printed a page of instructions. I did mention to use my ATM card to withdraw as much as possible and gave my PIN. I also stated a Lawyer for her to contact. I now realise that a Lawyer may not be necessary if no probate is needed but I think it is well worth the few thousand baht to take the legal worry away from my girlfriend and to make sure things are done correctly if I am not around. They may even give further advice (on top of what I wrote) on how best to proceed with my UK Will.

Anyway I feel very healthy at 69 years old so hopefully my Wills will not be needed for many years. Hopefully you are healthy too
Cheers
Keith
 

You want that they use your ATM card to withdraw money from your accounts when you are dead? I think this is not a good idea since legally they are not the owners (yet). 

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Mickeymaus said:

You want that they use your ATM card to withdraw money from your accounts when you are dead? I think this is not a good idea since legally they are not the owners (yet). 

 

Not disputing the legal position but, pray tell, how will anyone find out  -  or care, if the beneficiary is accessing finds 'early'.

[Keith5588]

1 hour ago, Mickeymaus said:

You want that they use your ATM card to withdraw money from your accounts when you are dead? I think this is not a good idea since legally they are not the owners (yet). 

@Mickeymaus  I think you are right and it could cause suspicion. It is best to do everything correctly and legally, no reason to not to.  I will have a look at the notes I printed for my girlfriend and make a correction if necessary.  I will make a note in "Google Keep", I now use that regularly as I find it now more easy to forget.
Thanks

Keith

[Mickeymaus]

1 hour ago, Keith5588 said:

@Mickeymaus  I think you are right and it could cause suspicion. It is best to do everything correctly and legally, no reason to not to.  I will have a look at the notes I printed for my girlfriend and make a correction if necessary.  I will make a note in "Google Keep", I now use that regularly as I find it now more easy to forget.
Thanks

Keith

I don't want to take over your topic. But perhaps it is of interest for you too. 

 

I have the same situation that you have. I have no children and have never been married, no dependents, so basically no family. To sum it up - a very relaxed life. ????????????

 

In respect of my will. In addition to the written form I made a video where I show it and read it out. Legally this is not necessary. But perhaps it will help.

 

Since I have bank accounts in different countries I am worried if my Thai beneficiary will be able to handle this. So I talked to the banks what documents they need. Mostly they need a certificate of inheritance from Thailand. This was perhaps great news because in some European countries this can be very expensive. Does anyone know the fees here in Thailand? I couldn't find any information on Google.

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

Mostly they need a certificate of inheritance from Thailand.

Sounds like the results of a probate hearing, where the Will's declared beneficiaries are validated. Probate fees have been shown on this forum to be as much as 50,000 baht. Obviously, situations and lawyers would affect this figure -- but haven't seen anything higher in price shown on this forum -- for what that's worth.

[Mickeymaus]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

Sounds like the results of a probate hearing, where the Will's declared beneficiaries are validated. Probate fees have been shown on this forum to be as much as 50,000 baht. Obviously, situations and lawyers would affect this figure -- but haven't seen anything higher in price shown on this forum -- for what that's worth.

That's too vague. Usually they charge a percentage of the inheritance. At least this is what I know from the countries I have to deal with in Europe.

[MyFriend You]

On 9/24/2022 at 3:13 AM, Keith5588 said:

Thank you @Farmerslife but please read my original post. I stated that I wrote the Wills and then signed then in front of witnesses who then signed the Wills.  They are not beneficiaries, I was aware of that.

Without going into too much detail I think I made very good clear Wills, including my gf's ID, her registered address in her village where she owns a house etc.  etc.

These Wills where written and signed by me and 2 witnesses almost 2 years ago. 

The UK Will I am happy with.

The Thai Will is in English language only.

Plain and simple, The Thai Will that is in English language will have to be translated into Thai.  Otherewise it is not worth the paper it is printed on.  We have had stories on this forum over the years of wills being contested - with success - because they weren't properly adjuducated - and you should be aware, a will for any property in Thailand has to be lodged with the Ampur's land office where the property is.   Do you think any Ampur will accept a will not in Thai??   One poster suggested you have a Legal office write (or re-write) your will in Thai - don't know where your property is, but my will was (re-written) by the Scandanavian Law Office in Jomtien, Pattaya..........had it read by a Thai lawyer friend, he said it was "perfect"    Save your girlfriend a big headache after you die, and do the due dilligence with the Wills.         Peace

[MyFriend You]

On 10/11/2022 at 7:40 PM, Mickeymaus said:

You want that they use your ATM card to withdraw money from your accounts when you are dead? I think this is not a good idea since legally they are not the owners (yet). 

It is actually ILLEGAL in Thaland to use someone elses ATM Card - with permission of not..........I already tried that with my bank account,   My wife is from Vietnam, I asked for a 2d ATM card for her, they said sahe could not have access to my account as it is against Thai Law, she would have to qualify for her own bank account.  Of course, nothig to stop her from using it if she has my Pin, but technically, it is against the law.         Peace

[scorecard]

On 9/24/2022 at 6:15 PM, Farmerslife said:

For a will to be legally enforceable in Thailand it must be written in Thai. You can have a copy in English but the legal document is the Thai language version. A reputable law firm will draw up copies in both languages.

 

If you were concerned that the Thai version might not accurately reflect your wishes you could have it translated by an independent company before signing the will.

It's not surprising that there must be a copy in local language.

 

To test what's in the written in the Thai version, find someone who reads/speaks both languages well. In private, show them the Thai version (Thai version only) and ask them to translate it to spoken English for you. What they say in English will quickly tell you whether it's what you intended or not.

 

 

[brianthainess]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:52 AM, Joe Farang said:

maybe even a widows pension from UK

???????????????? maybe if it's a private pension definatly not if a uk gov. one.

[nigelforbes]

9 minutes ago, scorecard said:

It's not surprising that there must be a copy in local language.

 

To test what's in the written in the Thai version, find someone who reads/speaks both languages well. In private, show them the Thai version (Thai version only) and ask them to translate it to spoken English for you. What they say in English will quickly tell you whether it's what you intended or not.

 

 

I had my affirmation to marry translated into Thai by a well known Thai lawyer, the documentation was then passed to MOFA to certify. MOFA requested changes which had to be made and then reviewed before more changes were requested. This process went on for four iterations. MOFA is the country expert on translation from Thai to English, they set the standard. MOFA said the changes they requested were to confirm the translation. Good luck with giving a will to a friend and asking him to have a stab at it!

[JackGats]

I also have assets both in Thailand and in an EU country. Will the EU country be content to leave my Thai assets alone, ie to be taxed with inheritance tax in Thailand, then distributed to my heirs in Thailand ? I suspect not. The EU country will want to lump all my assets (EU + Thai) and levy an inheritance tax on the whole. And this will probably lead to an international legal mess ending up in all my assets being frozen for years. I've seen it happen between two neighbouring EU countries, it should be much worse when an exotic country is involved.

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, JackGats said:

I also have assets both in Thailand and in an EU country. Will the EU country be content to leave my Thai assets alone, ie to be taxed with inheritance tax in Thailand, then distributed to my heirs in Thailand ? I suspect not. The EU country will want to lump all my assets (EU + Thai) and levy an inheritance tax on the whole. And this will probably lead to an international legal mess ending up in all my assets being frozen for years. I've seen it happen between two neighbouring EU countries, it should be much worse when an exotic country is involved.

There is no inheritance tax in Thailand.

 

Most countries in the West asses a will based on global assets, unless the person is non-dom.

[Mickeymaus]

10 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

There is no inheritance tax in Thailand. 

This is not completely correct. The inheritance tax rates for amounts above 100 million Baht are 5% inheritance tax for parents and descendants and 10% inheritance tax for other heirs. 

 

[brianthainess]

30 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

Save your girlfriend a big headache after you die, and do the due dilligence with the Wills.    

Absolutly save her the stress and also ask her to use a funeral service recomended by your embbasy 'AsiaOne' was the one I eventually chose, to to do all the paperwork involved and bring your remains back from BKK autopsy, coffin included in their price.

I recently had to deal with a friend who died and belive me it is not easy. Dealing with the Hospital, Police, & Amphur, two trips to BKK, retrive all docs. required, back to Amphur to register Death, back to BKK, coffin etc they do it all, even pick up clothes to dress him before putting you in the coffin, on first trip, delivered to the Wat of choice. Asia One were very professional. 

[Mickeymaus]

41 minutes ago, JackGats said:

I also have assets both in Thailand and in an EU country. Will the EU country be content to leave my Thai assets alone, ie to be taxed with inheritance tax in Thailand, then distributed to my heirs in Thailand ? I suspect not. The EU country will want to lump all my assets (EU + Thai) and levy an inheritance tax on the whole. And this will probably lead to an international legal mess ending up in all my assets being frozen for years. I've seen it happen between two neighbouring EU countries, it should be much worse when an exotic country is involved.

This is a VERY complicated topic and it is very country specific. 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

I had my affirmation to marry translated into Thai by a well known Thai lawyer, the documentation was then passed to MOFA to certify. MOFA requested changes which had to be made and then reviewed before more changes were requested. This process went on for four iterations. MOFA is the country expert on translation from Thai to English, they set the standard. MOFA said the changes they requested were to confirm the translation. Good luck with giving a will to a friend and asking him to have a stab at it!

Nice points.

 

My comment was just a suggestion to see if the two versions differ significantly.

 

I concur that both versions must totally agree.

 

I also comment, people can write their own will, but need to be quite careful that:

 

- It's not possible there could be 2 or more interpretations of the words / meaning of the words.

- What's written in one part of the will doesn't clash in any way with what's written in another part of the will.

- What's written in the will is not actually illegal.

[Joe Farang]

2 hours ago, brianthainess said:

???????????????? maybe if it's a private pension definatly not if a uk gov. one.

In Ireland my Thai wife would get a State widows pension for life (as long as she doesn't remarry or co-habit) if I die. It is taxable, but not means tested, so she could continue to work. She could also return to Thailand and have it paid direct to her bank. It is currently €213.50 per week for anyone under 66 and €253.30 per week for anyone over 66. I would also get it if she passed away.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

and you should be aware, a will for any property in Thailand has to be lodged with the Ampur's land office where the property is.   Do you think any Ampur will accept a will not in Thai??  

That's not correct. The land office will certainly accept a Will properly probated, without having an Amphur involved. But, yes, an Amphur requires a Will prepared at the Amphur to be in Thai. Furthermore, they also require that you, the testator, be able to speak and read Thai.

 

Quote

The testators must declare his wishes (in Thai) to public officer who in his turn must write down the testators declaration in the will in Thai (section 1658 of the Civil and Commercial Code).  One requirement for such a will is that you must be able to read and write Thai.

So, not many farangs writing their Wills on Amphur templates. But, you can go the secret Will route, bringing your English written (or whatever) Will to the Amphur, folded, witnessed, and affixed with an Amphur stamp. Then, sealed in an envelope -- and put away to be retrieved by your executor upon your death. Your executor can then have it translated, if need be. Or, I guess, you the testator could have a certified Thai translation of your Will be included in the sealed envelope.

 

But bothering to include an Amphur seems a waste, because "registering" a Will is not a requirement (accept in a few peculiar situations, not affecting most of us).

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

My wife is from Vietnam, I asked for a 2d ATM card for her, they said sahe could not have access to my account as it is against Thai Law

Have her made a co-signatory of your account. This gives her legal access to your account -- and she can have her own ATM card if she wants. Her name is invisible on your passbook (UV readable), so Immigration won't consider it a joint account (which it isn't) for visa extension purposes.

[chalawaan]

In many countries, a will beneficiary cannot also be an executor, I recommend you have that legally confirmed rather than rely on the net.

Do not be tempted to do wills on the cheap, you'll be gone when it inevitably goes pear shaped, and the exact opposite of what you intended could easily befall your grieving loved ones.   

[chalawaan]

On 9/25/2022 at 6:52 AM, Joe Farang said:

Think back to the UK scenario again. If there is a dispute regarding a will and the exact meaning of it. The legal people, Judges etc need to be able to read and understand what the original says. Judges or any legal system cannot be expected to deal with documents in 100 different languages. Why not just get married  then she will get everything when you die, maybe even a widows pension from UK

The UK legal system retains qualified translators in almost every significant language spoken worldwide. 

The issue here is more to satisfy the legal requirements in either country.

In Thailand that means a certified translation into English. The OP need not worry that the translator will "gyp" them, and in any case his phone can translate Thai, I use my phone for google photographic translations at the supermarket all the time! ???????????? 

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Nice points.

 

My comment was just a suggestion to see if the two versions differ significantly.

 

I concur that both versions must totally agree.

 

I also comment, people can write their own will, but need to be quite careful that:

 

- It's not possible there could be 2 or more interpretations of the words / meaning of the words.

- What's written in one part of the will doesn't clash in any way with what's written in another part of the will.

- What's written in the will is not actually illegal.

The following is for assets in Thailand only if this would be of interest. It might be valid for other assets as well, but this I cannot confirm with certainty.

 

I have a will set up by a lawyer company specialized in the subject which has executed hundreds of wills of foreign nationals in Thailand. It is in English and Thai in the same document.

 

My lawyer told me that only the Thai version matters in this case. The "translation" could be the latest tale of Mickey Mouse and it would not matter at all. It is as well advisable to have a clause in the text that if some part of it were illegal or not enforceable, then this would not render the rest invalid.

 

This clause is standard for other contracts as well - not only wills. It is called a severability clause (Salvatorische Klausel).

 

Do yourself a favour and do not write the will by yourself. You can have a 100% professional document which fully complies with Thai Law for a few thousand THB.

[1FinickyOne]

What exactly are you afraid of - - seems you left everything to your GF - let her get a translation - is she going to change something? My wife has a translation of the Will - what is she going to do - take her name off it? It helps to make her feel a little more secure... 

[moogradod]

4 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

What exactly are you afraid of - - seems you left everything to your GF - let her get a translation - is she going to change something? My wife has a translation of the Will - what is she going to do - take her name off it? It helps to make her feel a little more secure... 

When my will was made, my wife got of course one copy and the executor itself. Same for the Living Will that I would as well recommend to order with a reputable specialist.

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, chalawaan said:

In many countries, a will beneficiary cannot also be an executor

Not so in Thailand or the US. Is this common in Europe?

[andreww]

Folks, sorry to hijack the topic, but since I can see some knowledgeable people in here, maybe someone can clarify how much making a will or POA cost here? I asked couple of lawyers, and was invited to pay 25-50k thb, is it real for what is basically a templated document? 

 

Also, can foreign residents (i.e. my overseas relatives) be included in my will? Or I can draft a simple power of attorney allowing them access to assets? Will Thai banks accept such document? 

 

Thanks in advance. 

[1FinickyOne]

5 hours ago, moogradod said:

When my will was made, my wife got of course one copy and the executor itself. Same for the Living Will that I would as well recommend to order with a reputable specialist.

healthcare POA is valuable too - or is that the living will? We had 3 documents...

[moogradod]

43 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Not so in Thailand or the US. Is this common in Europe?

As far as I know, in Thailand a beneficiary CAN be an executor, but it is not recommended for if there is some arguing (you see it depends very much on the individual case) then his stand towards the authorities would be weak. But this is what I believe, not what I know for certain.

 

This topic here reminds me a bit of the health questions that are sometimes asked in the forum. Sometimes it all depends very much on the individual case - so why not ask a lawyer directly as you would ask a doctor ? The initial advice would most probably cost you very little, maybe even nothing. This applies as well to the price of services offered. Who am I to say how much a certain company would charge you in your specific case ?

 

It depends as well on where you are located. If this is Pattaya I may help anybody by recommending a specialized lawyer via PM, if in Bangkok or elsewhere out in the country I do not know. What I do know for certain is that the adress I would give you will very most probably make you happy with all your requirements since I did make the same recommendation to others who then gave a very good feedback.

[moogradod]

35 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

healthcare POA is valuable too - or is that the living will? We had 3 documents...

Could you please elaborate more on what you mean exactly by "Healthcare POA" ?

 

A Living Will is a document that describes how you would like that doctors, hospitals etc. should treat you if you are not able to communicate (because of unconsciousness, because you are not sane at the time etc.).

 

It describes for example if machines that keep you alive under certain circumstances should be switched off etc. when you cannot tell.